Ride Scotland? Then be very afraid.

[crawsue]

:mad: Doing one of our best Twisties last Sunday, Dalmally to Inverary, was pressing on a bit but the 696 is not exactly ballistic...is it?
Pulling in to Inverary I realised I had a single plod on my tail, seems like he had been there for a while , but was on his own. Got a proper dressing down but I realised that he couldn't book me.....then he pulls his flanker.....a motoring ASBO.....sh*te.
Seems it lasts a year and one more pull and the bike gets lifted.....talk about summary justice, no court case, no appeal......summer basically ruined.
This seems to be how Police Scotland will get round the two witness problem for road traffic offences. :banghead:

[SunEye]

According to an old article in The Scotsman about motoring ASBOs

"The measure was introduced by the parliament in 2005 and, while police must have reasonable grounds that either careless and inconsiderate driving and/or illegal off-road driving has occurred, they must also have reasonable grounds for believing the vehicle is or has been used in a manner causing, or likely to cause, alarm, distress or annoyance to members of the public - ie there has to be an anti-social element to the circumstances."

From your description of events it sound like the above did not apply. However I don't know how (or even if) you can challenge the ASBO that has been given to you.

[alan s4]

Describe "pressing on" - if it's consistently more than 70mph in a 60 zone then it's a fair cop.

[utopia]

Of course the Devil is in the detail .. ie exactly how fast were you going and in exactly what manner were you riding.
But I share your annoyance at the idea of summary justice being handed out by a single person, with no chance to challenge it.
And the thought of the bike being taken away after one more similar event seems draconian.

If I'm honest, I probably break a speed limit every single time I go out on the bike, and have probably done so all my life.
And ok, its only my personal opinion but despite this, I reckon I my riding style is careful and considerate to other road users ... that's how I've got to 60yrs without injury.
I guess its all about interpretation but it does concern me when that call falls to a single copper in isolation, who can then apply such hard hitting consequences on the spot.

I remember going to Donington just after it had reopened.
There were long queues of cars on the then narrow approach roads, so I was filtering, very slowly past them, in first gear.
A copper stopped me, but refused to explain why.
He made me wait for a while then let me continue.
I reckon the only reason for that was that the Laverda SFC that I was riding at the time looked fast even at a standstill.
I'm glad that guy didn't have an ASBO in his pocket.

On the other hand, I do see riders out there who need one.

[Dirty]

Disgusting. Just another example of the slow erosion of liberties, yet people still scream blue murder when they think there are too many 'human rights'!

I wonder how confiscation works with leased bikes?

[alan s4]

On a similar note, it's 6 points for merely touching your sat nav screen now, I'd take an ASBO any day of the week:mand:

[AndyC_772]

You sure that doesn't just apply to hand-held devices?

How is a proper bike mounted sat nav any different to any of the other controls on the bike?

[edit]: The RAC has a guide here. Seems the rules do specifically apply to hand-held phones.

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/know-how/mobile-phone-laws/

[slob]

How is a proper bike mounted sat nav any different to any of the other controls on the bike?


because of the level of attention it requires, how is using a satnav or finding a tune on your built in car hi-fi any better than using a phone in a holder?

[Dukedesmo]

how is using a satnav or finding a tune on your built in car hi-fi any better than using a phone in a holder?

It's not but then when did common sense or logic enter into motoring lawmaking...?

[slob]

Sadly true.

I'm still awaiting prosecution for a non confirming plate a couple of weeks back, which if the £60 stated by the officer amounts to about £20 per mm on the size of the letters, he was trying to tell me what a nice guy he was because he wasn't putting points on my license for my cans. The thing I object to is he stopped me 'as part of a road safety initiative' but just wanted to hit his daily quota, didn't even walk round the bike or check the lights worked. When he said 'safety initiative' I was expecting the bacon sarnie/bikesafe course offer my local force employ. Call it additional local motorcycling tax if that's what it is. I was stopping anyway to see if I could help the bike I was approaching, thinking it had broken down only to find it was being stopped by the guy who'd hidden his car in the bushes.

Not worth appealing if I don't want to get tugged every time plod spots my reg.

The inability to appeal an S59 ASBO is clearly wrong, as is issuing it for a first offence, and equally prone to retribution. As ever a power intended for use against gangs of youths on uninsured mopeds and stolen dirt bikes is being abused once in the hands of the executive.

Not exactly going to win hearts and minds of mostly sensible bikers who open it up occasionally when safe to do so.

[Dukedesmo]

As ever a power intended for use against gangs of youths on uninsured mopeds and stolen dirt bikes is being abused once in the hands of the executive.



Whilst the gangs of youths on uninsured mopeds/stolen bikes go about their daily criminality totally unhindered by the law...

[Nasher]

Whilst the gangs of youths on uninsured mopeds/stolen bikes go about their daily criminality totally unhindered by the law...

That's because 'we' are an easier target who can be dealt with quickly at the side of the road to generate some revenue, and are likely to be polite, compliant, and just consider the offence as an occupational hazard.

They don't want to be tied up for hours back at the station doing paperwork and dealing with 'customers' who are going to be hard to deal with, probably violent, and will make them miss their lunch.

Nasher.

[Dirty]

Sadly true.

I'm still awaiting prosecution for a non confirming plate a couple of weeks back, which if the £60 stated by the officer amounts to about £20 per mm on the size of the letters, he was trying to tell me what a nice guy he was because he wasn't putting points on my license for my cans.

Where was this?

[slob]

oop narth

got a verbal nip and traffic offence report carbon copy but no letter yet, assume they send them out so slow they can double the fine

*%#!$ will probably offer me a speed awareness course

[crawsue]

W:dunce::dunce:Where was this? And how fast? Dalmally to inverary, Argyle. Never over 85 but 55 in the new 40 mph approach to Inverary. Says some of my overtakes were dangerous, perhaps "spirited" but never dangerous. Riding since 1967 with one off in '68 snow and one in 2003 lost the front on shi*e at farmers field exit. One speeding offence on a Tiger Cub 1967.....honest!
Next moan, new 50 mph speed limits being pushed out all over the place.....Argyle will become a no-go area.....but I honestly think that is the objective.....

[uncle duke]

I was up in Oban at the beginning of May this year & it reawakened my interest in the ride from Campbeltown to Oban that i remembered from touring Scotland way back in the 80's . Strangely when i called into the local tourist information place i found a small fold out brochure called 'The Argyll 190 Motorcycle Route' that covers some of this. It doesn't seem very 'joined up' to advertise how great Argyll is for a motorcycle ride when the police are out there waiting for you ! although i did see a sign saying the area was patrolled by the Police on unmarked motorcycles... still want to ride it again though as it is a great road....

[Uncle Bob]

Soooo, the thread title should really be: Ride Scotland (badly)? Then be very afraid.

And riding/driving for a hundred years is no indication of ability or quality. In my experience the opposite is true, in that the people who have been riding longest are some of the worst in terms of both quality and attitude.

As annoying as it must be, it's better to just accept getting caught, learn from it and move on.

[Dirty]

And driving over the speed limit is no indication of driving badly. In fact unrealistic speed limits cause more harm than good as they encourage people to break them which in turn devalues all speed limits and road rules.

If we accept 1 small unfair law it's the thin end of a large and nasty wedge IMO.

[alan s4]

In my experience speed limits are enforced far more strictly in Scotland. Over 80 on the M-way will get you nicked, South of the Border that's a normal traffic flow speed.

Not all police are anti-biker, however some most definitely are.......my 1st points were on a Z400 travelling in convoy with cars at just under 80 in the middles lane. Police car drove along the line until they got to me and pulled me over. I did ask why I had been singled out, plod just gave me a shrug.

So as the OP says, beware if you are riding in Scotland. Esp when you enter villages, over 35mph will get you stopped, I've been done for 36.

[Uncle Bob]

And driving over the speed limit is no indication of driving badly. In fact unrealistic speed limits cause more harm than good as they encourage people to break them which in turn devalues all speed limits and road rules.

If we accept 1 small unfair law it's the thin end of a large and nasty wedge IMO.

Exactly how is it unfair?

I may be being slightly pedantic here, but for so many reasons driving over the speed limit is driving badly. It demonstrates either poor observation, poor control or just a downright disregard for the rules of the road. I don't know which applies in this case (although I could probably guess). Factoring in the 'dangerous' overtakes just makes the situation worse. Take one of those factors out and it might not even have been a pull. We'll never know!

And I don't think there's anything unrealistic about a speed limit dropping to 40mph on the approach to a town\village, do you?

Unfortunately it's pretty common on car\bike forums to see this kind of thing. Somebody in the wrong gets caught bang to rights, then others bemoan the flaws in the law, speed limits, PC Plod is Satan etc. etc.

[slob]

An S59 ASBO for a first offence, with no chance of appeal is summary justice without proper oversight and as such unfair.

London is now riddled with 20mph zones, replacing previously almost completely unenforced 30mph zones. Taking statistical figures about pedestrian survival rates to make this decision, without factoring in things like the length of time spent in very close proximity to ever increasing numbers of cyclists or the amount of time drivers spend staring at the speedo instead of watching the road is a farce. It makes pretty much every driver guilty, including every bus, ambulance and police driver I see on the road, whilst having zero effect on the boy racers who caused the problem in the first place, other than adding to their frustration and increasing the likelihood of risky overtakes etc.

When I was stopped the other week I was doing 20 in a 30 zone, I have no problem whatsoever doing 30 through villages as kids are playing in front gardens etc. I also accept that if I get caught a few mph over the limit in a 'national' I'm fair game for the cops, but hope that any officer who's really concerned with safety will apply a little common sense to the situation.

By far the most common offence I witness out of the city (other than the curse of mobile phones) is (typically 2 tons of 4x4 or large estate) car doing 45 in a 50 zone and continuing at 45 as it drops to 40, and 45 again as it drops to 30. No ASBO or even stop for these 'upright citizens'. Same unaware, zombie drivers who get to that speed camera (or even just a site of an ex-speed camera their SatNav has flagged up) at 45 in a 50 and slam on the brakes because they have no idea what speed they were doing in the first place or even what the limit is.

[Dirty]

Exactly how is it unfair?



I was about to reply but Slob said pretty much everything I wanted to and probably better than I would of.

Just because something is 'law' does not make it right. When 'rules' are stupid, people will disregard them. Sadly that then devalues all rules.

[Uncle Bob]

Just because something is 'law' does not make it right.

Yes OK, but the flipside of that particular coin is that just because 'you' might not agree with the law it doesn't make it wrong either :)

You're the driver of the vehicle and as such it's your responsibility to read the road signs and obey them, whether they say 20mph or 2mph!!

Now then, from what I'm reading the OP admits to riding at 85mph, and since I think 'twisties' were mentioned that means a 60mph limit, max. Then the OP is observed by plod carrying out 'dangerous' overtakes (we only have their word that they weren't dangerous...) and finally the OP speeds at 55 in a 40 limit, all the while being tailed. And you think their treatment of "Don't do this again otherwise we will confiscate the bike" is unfair??

First offence just means 'first time caught' in my book, so I'm sorry but if people habitually disregard the law then it's just asking for trouble, and there's no use in anyone moaning after the event that it's somehow unfair!

I'm not being intentionally pious, despite how it probably looks. I'm just not inclined to sing the victimised biker song on this occasion.

[Dirty]

I'm afraid if 'I' disagree with a law it is wrong. That's just a fact. Others may not disagree with it and to them it is 'right' so discussing flip sides leaves us nowhere.

I call bull**** on the responsibility to 'obey' regardless. I'll avoid Godwins but the precedent is there. In fact I think it's our responsibility to disobey stupid laws.

Yes, weirdly I do think the fact 1 copper with no need for any properly gathered 'evidence' can threaten to deprive someone of their property. Especially when the law used was originally purposed for another use, one for which it is obviously impotent. So rather than deal with the feckless and corrupt they use it to stomp on the responsible taxpayers.
Clearly your 'book' needs no evidence at all as there is no such thing as a first time offence. Unintentionally pious? Is that somehow better in your book?

[utopia]

I guess I had better qualify my statement that I probably break the law every time I go out on the bike, lest I be seen as needing an ASBO myself.
What I'm talking about here is maybe momentarily hitting 35 in a 30, 68 in a 60 etc.
If the law is interpreted literally it becomes inappropriate to the way people actually drive.
For example, my last speed camera offence (6 or 7yrs ago) was for momentarily hitting 45 in a 30 .. BUT that limit was presumably set to cover the worst case scenario of rush hour congestion on that particular busy city road and I was there when it was deserted at 3.00am. Yet the letter of the law was applied and furthermore, when I took the trouble to attend court and challenge the situation, my representations were ignored and I was fined extra for my trouble.
Thus the law became an ass in my eyes, and I lost a certain amount of respect for it.

Slob describes the situation very eloquently.

At the same time, the "victimised biker" line is one that we have all heard many times and is often used in an attempt to defend the indefensible.
The devil is in the detail .. which is why laws need to be sensibly framed and fairly applied, or else risk losing their credibility.

[Dirty]

which is why laws need to be sensibly framed and fairly applied, or else risk losing their credibility.

:thumbsup:

[jonzi]

... challenge the situation, my representations were ignored and I was fined extra for my trouble...

I don't know why this scene in the Big Lebowski sprung to mind when I read this



<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/eNqLoFHJxM0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[slob]

...First offence just means 'first time caught' in my book...


presumption of prior guilt, not how the law works (or at least, is meant to work) in this country, it's a bit 'minority report', "come now, you must be guilty of something"

[Darkness]

.......What I'm talking about here is maybe momentarily hitting 35 in a 30, 68 in a 60 etc.

.......If the law is interpreted literally it becomes inappropriate to the way people actually drive.

In a 30mph limit anything above that speed is illegal. 35 in a 30, 68 in a 60 etc is the ACPO guidance on when to proceed with prosecution, but that doesn't make 31mph in a 30 limit legal.

And since when has it been appropriate to make laws that reflect what people actually do? If it were, we'd have no seat belt laws (In cars), no breathalyser, and no speed limits for Hayabusas!

If you want to be a Superman that isn't constrained by rules, Nietzsche says you have to accept responsibility for all of the outcomes from your actions. :confused::confused:

[Uncle Bob]

I call bull**** on the responsibility to 'obey' regardless.

I stopped reading after this bit. If you're one of those people who think that speed limits don't apply to you for some bizarre reason that I'm failing to understand, then I won't waste any more time discussing it with you.

"Yes your honour, I decided that the stretch of road in question shouldn't be a 20, it should be a 60. The law is stupid". :rolleyes:

@Utopia - I hadn't read your post at the time of writing, but it does kinda reinforce what I've been saying. I'd have been pissed at that one too, by the way, but when it comes down to it that's not a fight I would have chosen. Hindsight is a wonderful thing though...

[Uncle Bob]

presumption of prior guilt, not how the law works (or at least, is meant to work) in this country, it's a bit 'minority report', "come now, you must be guilty of something"

Except that in this case prior guilt is more of an accumulation of offences really. The copper tailed the OP for long enough to note multiple reasons to pull them. As I said earlier if it had just been a dodgy overtake, probably no pull. If it had just been 55 in a 40, probably still a pull but possibly not even a ticket. Who knows. We didn't see the riding in question, yet this biker pack mentality thing that some people are suffering with makes them automatically assume the offender is completely innocent of anything and that PC Plod must have pulled them for no reason whatsoever. I find that idiotic to say the least.

[Dirty]

I stopped reading after this bit.

Of course you did, it's the easy way out when your pov has been shown to be faulty and illogical.

[slob]

Yes... and it's not the guilt that's in question, in the OP it's admitted, it's the application of the wrong penalty that's the point for me.

[Uncle Bob]

Of course you did, it's the easy way out when your pov has been shown to be faulty and illogical.

Mine?!?! Er, OK. :eyepopping:

I'm pretty new here so I'll just assume that this is normal behaviour and move on.

I suggest we leave it there.

[Uncle Bob]

Yes... and it's not the guilt that's in question, in the OP it's admitted, it's the application of the wrong penalty that's the point for me.

Fair enough.

[manwithredbike]

Sadly true.

I'm still awaiting prosecution for a non confirming plate a couple of weeks back, which if the £60 stated by the officer amounts to about £20 per mm on the size of the letters, he was trying to tell me what a nice guy he was because he wasn't putting points on my license for my cans. The thing I object to is he stopped me 'as part of a road safety initiative' but just wanted to hit his daily quota, didn't even walk round the bike or check the lights worked. When he said 'safety initiative' I was expecting the bacon sarnie/bikesafe course offer my local force employ. Call it additional local motorcycling tax if that's what it is. I was stopping anyway to see if I could help the bike I was approaching, thinking it had broken down only to find it was being stopped by the guy who'd hidden his car in the bushes.

Not worth appealing if I don't want to get tugged every time plod spots my reg.

The inability to appeal an S59 ASBO is clearly wrong, as is issuing it for a first offence, and equally prone to retribution. As ever a power intended for use against gangs of youths on uninsured mopeds and stolen dirt bikes is being abused once in the hands of the executive.

Not exactly going to win hearts and minds of mostly sensible bikers who open it up occasionally when safe to do so.
wasn't aware that that was a points offence Rob. doesn't appear on this list though may be different now.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/assets/uploads/files/OD_000055.pdf

I'm currently running with 6 points so take a wee interest in this sort of stuff!

[alan s4]

Argyll 190 - never heard of that - here's a link.........on my summer to-do list.....I'll try and make it without picking up any points:biggrin:

http://www.scottishbikermagazine.co.uk/tourismroutes/argyll-190/

[slob]

I was fairly sure it wasn't... but it's a case of diminishing returns when dealing with a traffic cop on a mission to write out a fine, so i just did the textbook grovel.
I guess I'm lucky not to have been ASBO'd!
I accept my number plate has letters that are 3mm under the regulation size according to his laminated gauge (an outdated regulation that allows a short sighted bobby on foot to catch a distant number plate in the dark, when my number plate is clearly legible from orbit with modern technology, it certainly isn't the common 'postcard & letraset' job) and I'm a threat to civilised society.
In my case the whole stop was bogus, it's revenue generation and claiming it's in any way related to a road safety initiative leaves me with no respect for that officer and undermines my faith in his entire force.
Still haven't received any paperwork after three weeks, so assume they just bin the letter instead of sending it and double the fine for slow payment.

[Darren69]

It used to be that I would argue that it was better to have a police officer patrolling and monitoring driving offences in preference to the black and white of speed cameras etc, but that argument no longer holds water since it appears that they have quotas to meet at any opportunity. I must confess its the first I've heard of ASBOs being handed out for routine traffic offences. Aren't they by definition intended for Anti-social behavior offences?

[Dirty]

Mine?!?! Er, OK. :eyepopping:

I'm pretty new here so I'll just assume that this is normal behaviour and move on.

I suggest we leave it there.


You wrongly interpreted my posts as saying I disagreed with all speed limits, which I didn't ever say and I don't. You then used that faulty extrapolation as an excuse to back out of the debate, rather than confront the fact that your black and white view of the law was being confronted with a whole pallete of grey shades. I suspect the reason you now want to leave it is that is difficult when your world view is confronted. Fair enough but don't put it on others if you are not willing to back up your points.

[utopia]

@Utopia - I hadn't read your post at the time of writing, but it does kinda reinforce what I've been saying. I'd have been pissed at that one too, by the way, but when it comes down to it that's not a fight I would have chosen. Hindsight is a wonderful thing though...

Yes, I knew (or at least very strongly suspected) that it was a losing battle, and I anticipated having to pay extra for the privilege of saying my piece but I viewed it as "taking one for the team" in terms of standing up for justice and against unfair, cash gathering speed cameras.
Ironically, my submission to the court was that I was reluctantly ok with paying their unfair fine because yes, I had broken the letter of the law, but it was not the sort of offence which should attract points on my licence as it was not actually poor driving .. and could I please have a speed awareness course instead ?
Either they simply didn't understand, or they didn't care.

[uncle duke]

The 190 seems to split at lochgilphead & on to Inveraray .I'd continue up to Oban then either on to Fort William or back to glasgow via a85/a82 . Theres a ferry to campbeltown from ardrossan in the summmer so i'd get that . Of course first time i rode it ,it was a monsoon but during may this year it was wall to wall blue sky which would have been utterly fantastic . It's pencilled in for next year can't wait.

[Dirty]

Either they simply didn't understand, or they didn't care.

They probably didn't have a choice. Sentencing guidelines are almost at the point where magistrates are irrelevant. They are pretty much told what to do by a legal advisor and in the main simply decide on level of punishment ie they get told somewhere between 1 month and 6 or between £100 and £1000.
I think the rules on awareness courses are also constrained in terms of MPH over limit, 2 many and you don't qualify, ditto dangerous driving, no regard for circumstance, if it's a certain speed over it's dangerous!

[Uncle Bob]

You wrongly interpreted my posts as saying I disagreed with all speed limits, which I didn't ever say and I don't. You then used that faulty extrapolation as an excuse to back out of the debate, rather than confront the fact that your black and white view of the law was being confronted with a whole pallete of grey shades. I suspect the reason you now want to leave it is that is difficult when your world view is confronted. Fair enough but don't put it on others if you are not willing to back up your points.

If you don't understand what I'm saying then just leave it alone mate, there's no shame in it. What I'm not prepared to do is repeat my point of view over and over again just for your benefit. I've made my points perfectly clear, and I'm quite willing to discuss it with others who do understand.

I'm not sure why you seem to want to spoil the thread\discussion by trying bait me into an argument? You know what they say about arguing on the internet...

[Dirty]

If you don't understand what I'm saying then just leave it alone mate, there's no shame in it. What I'm not prepared to do is repeat my point of view over and over again just for your benefit. I've made my points perfectly clear, and I'm quite willing to discuss it with others who do understand.

I'm not sure why you seem to want to spoil the thread\discussion by trying bait me into an argument? You know what they say about arguing on the internet...

I understand what you are saying, I'm not the one here who is falsely representing what the other has said. In a nutshell you said 'driving over the speed limit is driving badly'. You can jump out of the debate any time you like but you won't get away with painting it as anything other than what it is, your inability to back up those statements. Trying to cover that up with claims of 'spoiling the thread' or misrepresenting my points and using that at a reason simply don't wash.

[crawsue]

Nice to see some spirited discussion and dissent, all grist to the mill :rolleyes:. As for the Argyle 190 , newbies could spend a very good long weekend anywhere in Argyle ,from Campbeltown to Kinlochleven , Inverary to Appin there is not a bad road and the Cowal Peninsula offers some delights as well. Why use ferries when there are so many good roads?
As for timing, I would personally avoid April/May as "plod" like to get the message out early to the "brisk" locals, take a chance on the weather and midges and pencil in September....less caravans and campers.
Although 50 mph limits are encroaching (see 3 new miles of it going west of Furnace...WTF? ) and( all the way up from Lochearnhead to Lix Toll...again WTF? ) there are still miles of glorious twisties and very few villages.
My personal favourite is the Glen Orchy section of Tyndrum to Dalmally, if you get a clear run ,its glorious.....see YouTube ad nauseum.:rolleyes:

[LouSCannon]

I'm not long back from two weeks up in the West Highlands, we covered a fair amount of area. Friends getting married up Aonoch More, got out to Islay, Jura, Oban and surrounding areas. Sadly in the car given the walking we were doing. Despite that loved driving on those roads...

Did notice the quality of the roads, and then also found out almost all of the road maintenance is funded by the EU which is a shame now!

[slob]

Did notice the quality of the roads, and then also found out almost all of the road maintenance is funded by the EU which is a shame now!

Same for Wales

[Dirty]

Did notice the quality of the roads, and then also found out almost all of the road maintenance is funded by the EU which is a shame now!

Listen, don't mention the EU! I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it all right :chuckle: