Oil.Synthetic or semi

10-02-2013, 02:57 PM

I have a M7509 (WET CLUTCH) and would like to use a full synthertic oil but various lists suggest semi synthetic for this bike. Has anyone experience to share?

rollo22 · 10-02-2013, 04:14 PM

Some one will be along soon.
But seem to remember that you need to use semi cos full will cause clutch slip.

gary tompkins · 10-02-2013, 04:34 PM

Yep stick to semi

Main thing is to avoid any oils with lots of anti friction additives as it can cause clutch slip

Rally · 10-02-2013, 04:37 PM

I once used fully on a Suzuki DR350, the clutch burnt out in no time. The lubrication properties of the fully are just too much for some wet clutches. I wouldn't risk it again myself.

Nickj · 10-02-2013, 04:59 PM

Semi-synth works fine in mine and it's as far as you really ought to go in any older design engine.
The clutch may slip and even if you change the oil the friction plates can be stuffed.
Also it's way cheaper!!
Mines done 43K on standard garage grade 10:40 semi, gets changed every 3-5K (filter every other change) so it seems a waste to use expensive brand named oil if the technical spec is virtually identical other than being half the price and lacking a shiny label and coloured container.

jerry · 10-02-2013, 07:23 PM

Air cooled m750 wet clutch use semi synthetic ,

utopia · 11-02-2013, 05:28 PM

Recommended oil is Shell Advance Ultra 4T.
This is described as a fully synthetic oil, but is actually something of a special case and is often described as not being a "proper" full synthetic. This may be because it lacks some of the friction modifier additives that others contain, and hence it isn't so prone to causing the clutch slip associated with most full synthetics.
My 2000 M750 has run on this oil for about 11k miles now, and I've had no clutch problems. Mind you, I tend to be fairly gentle on clutches so its probably still in a fairly unworn condition.
However, I've been nervous about continuing to use it due to the large number of reports of full synth causing clutch slip.
In a recent phone call to G-tec for advice, I was told that they now use the semi-synth equivalent from Shell, which I believe is Advance VSX. I intend to switch to this at the next oil change.
While there is often good advice to be had from private owners, I'm more inclined to trust the extensive experience of a specialist Ducati workshop whose experience is far more wide ranging, as they will have stripped many engines and observed their state of wear resulting from the use of various different types of oil.

12-02-2013, 09:40 AM

utopia - my advice is to carry on using Shell Advance Ultra as it is an excellent oil, recommended by Ducati and your bike runs ok on it.

You are right that it is not a 'real' synthetic oil from an oil engineer's definition but it is legally called synthetic after a judge in a court case ruled that the oil had been a sufficiently modified mineral oil to define it synthetic. This opened the flood gates for the marketing guys and most of the oils that are called synthetic are really like Shell Advance and are Group 3 oils - with Group 4 and 5 being 'real' synthetics. An example of a Group 4 oil is Mobil 1 Racing 4T and a Group 5 is Motul 300V Factory Line. No oil company actually states what group their oil belongs to and this can only be assumed by looking at the Technical Data sheet.

The oil group is defined by the base stock and not the additive package but it is the additive package that makes an oil suitable for a bike with a wet clutch or not. Any oil that states 'energy saving' - 'fuel saving' - 'friction modified' will most likely cause clutch slip in a bike with a wet clutch. What you have to look for is that the oil complies with the requirements of Jaso MA - and Shell Advance Ultra does.

I find it disappointing that guys are put off using fully synthetic oil just because there are a few instances where clutches slipped which were assumed to be because the oil being used was fully synthetic but are likely to be because of the unsuitable additive package and the clutch was well worn anyway. I would be interested in knowing which make of oil the guys used who had clutch slip when using synthetic oil and we can look at the Tech Data sheet if it's available and try to understand why.

gary tompkins · 12-02-2013, 03:38 PM

Shell Advance ultra used in a M600 with less than 10,000 miles on the clock

Clutch slipped like crazy until it was drained and replaced with Silkolene semi mineral 10/40

I was really peed off at wasting good money on expensive oil that I ended up chucking after 50 miles. This is why I now don't personally recommend full sythetic for wet clutch monsters. I've also heard of clutches needing new plates after contamination by full synthetic oils, at considerable expense to the owners. I just don't think it's worth risking on a wet clutch engine, when mineral oils work just as well and at far less expense.

12-02-2013, 06:11 PM

Thanks Gary but I can't explain that one - Advance Ultra does comply with Jaso MA2 and lots of Ducati bikes with wet clutches do use it ok. Fair enough if you had a problem so I can understand you saying what you do - I guess we'll just disagree on the suitability of fully synthetic oil.

Shell do have a very helpful Tech Dept so did you contact them? I would have wanted to get a sample to them for analysis.

utopia · 12-02-2013, 07:49 PM

The last couple of posts illustrate exactly why I'm thinking of changing to the semi-synth equivalent to Advance Ultra 4T.....following a recommendation from a respected Ducati service dept with wide experience and possibly no commercial brand loyalties to rigidly adhere to.
I think it is probably true that the terms full-synth and semi-synth are fairly loose terms which can apply to oils which conform to different specific standards like JasoMA, group3,4,5 etc.
I suspect that some of the reputation for clutch slip comes from people using certain grades of "proper" full-synth with its friction modifiers.
On the other hand, there are cases like Gary's where the recommended "not quite full-synth...???" Advance Ultra 4 has caused problems....which were cured by changing oil to "normal" semi-synth.
Obviously the oil is the lifeblood of any motor, particularly an air-cooled one perhaps, and its good to use the best oil you can get your hands on.
Then again, it may be better for general engine protection to use a cheaper oil and change it more frequently, especially if the bike does short runs and sees much winter use.
And after juggling all those factors, the results of your choice don't usually show themselves until the engine has done a decent enough mileage on the same oil to show its long term effects on engine wear.
Bizarrely, my current stock of Advance Ultra 4T was purchased cheap from a local ducati main dealer who was changing over to a different brand....though I suspect this may have been for commercial reasons as much as anything.
And I have some Advance VSX which I bought by mistake as its in almost identical packaging...which then turned out to be the oil that I was advised to change to anyway.

...............

jerry · 12-02-2013, 10:22 PM

shell ultra is not a proper class 5 full synthetic like motul technosynthesise 3000 15-50w which is a fully synthetic ester oil it is a class 4 synthetic made from a mineral ester , also it may be recommended by Ducati but it does not work well in wet clutch bikes ,
in 2 valve models it is not worth using a full synthetic .

gary tompkins · 13-02-2013, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zhango

Thanks Gary but I can't explain that one - Advance Ultra does comply with Jaso MA2 and lots of Ducati bikes with wet clutches do use it ok. Fair enough if you had a problem so I can understand you saying what you do - I guess we'll just disagree on the suitability of fully synthetic oil.

Shell do have a very helpful Tech Dept so did you contact them? I would have wanted to get a sample to them for analysis.

No I didn't contact Shell at the time

This happened when I owned my M600... about 13 years ago. I remember using Silkolene to replace the Shell Advance, because the bike shop I bought it from only sold Shell or Silkolene brand oils at that time. I did complain at the shop about the clutch slip, but the response I got was that it was my choice to use Shell Advance, so they weren't responsible for the outcome. It was a local Jap bike supplier by the way.. not a Ducati dealership.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerry

shell ultra is not a proper class 5 full synthetic like motul technosynthesise 3000 15-50w which is a fully synthetic ester oil it is a class 4 synthetic made from a mineral ester , also it may be recommended by Ducati but it does not work well in wet clutch bikes ,
in 2 valve models it is not worth using a full synthetic .

2 valve engines like my 900ie are fine on synthetic oils, as the dry clutch won't be effected by slip. I currently run Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10/40 in trike and have done for the last 9000 miles, which is three changes as I replace oil every 3K. I get less oil consumption with Mobil than I did on other brands, and the engine seems to run cooler in summer temperatures. http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lub...ycle_Oils.aspx

utopia · 13-02-2013, 01:28 AM

Hmmm...well I guess there's always the possibility that they put a different oil in by mistake, and didn't admit to it.
Or could it even be that a residue of the previous oil, trapped on the clutch plates, reacted in an odd way with the new oil to cause the slip...??? (I accept that this is a bit of an oddball notion, but just maybe...?)

Mostly, I tend to stick firmly to the manufacturers recommendations, and buy my oil from a manufacturer who has a reputation to protect and a large R&D budget.
How strange then, that the recommended tipple should have a rumoured dark side.
And is this just misinformed prejudice against its family name ?
If so, why has my local main agent changed brands, and another avoided the tainted moniker ?
Worse still, is this just a subtle, oil thread wind-up and I've taken the bait ?

Either way, I have a plan.....
I gonna stick to the Advance Ultra 4T as a test.
At least it will be a decent long-term test under constant conditions and up to now its been fine, but.....
If it does bugger the clutch, and I should need a new one, I'll damn well do a dry clutch conversion on it, and then I can use a proper full-synth, which I imagine will benefit the rest of the motor considerably.
In fact I might have just convinced myself there that, all things considered, I need the clanky noise after all.

Damn you, ukmoc, with your insidious, so called "oil" threads, surreptitiously luring the poor, innocent, monster lover into an ever higher state of modding compulsion.

13-02-2013, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerry

shell ultra is not a proper class 5 full synthetic like motul technosynthesise 3000 15-50w which is a fully synthetic ester oil it is a class 4 synthetic made from a mineral ester.

Not quite - Shell Advance Ultra is a Group 3 mineral oil and nothing to do with ester technology.

10-02-2013, 02:57 PM	#1
Geoff Ives Guest Posts: n/a	Oil.Synthetic or semi I have a M7509 (WET CLUTCH) and would like to use a full synthertic oil but various lists suggest semi synthetic for this bike. Has anyone experience to share? Last edited by Geoff Ives; 10-02-2013 at 06:23 PM..

10-02-2013, 04:14 PM	#2
rollo22 Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Moreton-in-Marsh Bike: M1100evo Posts: 1,082	Some one will be along soon. But seem to remember that you need to use semi cos full will cause clutch slip. __________________ IF ALL ELSE FAILS READ THE INSTRUCTIONS

10-02-2013, 04:34 PM	#3
gary tompkins 1/2 man - 1/2 pogo-stick Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Dartford, Kent Bike: M900ie Posts: 7,241	Yep stick to semi Main thing is to avoid any oils with lots of anti friction additives as it can cause clutch slip __________________ GT Fully paid up member of the S.A.S. (Scottoiler Appreciation Society) 27,000 miles on original chain - and still going strong!

10-02-2013, 04:59 PM	#5
Nickj Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Forest Of Dean Bike: S2r Posts: 3,189	Semi-synth works fine in mine and it's as far as you really ought to go in any older design engine. The clutch may slip and even if you change the oil the friction plates can be stuffed. Also it's way cheaper!! Mines done 43K on standard garage grade 10:40 semi, gets changed every 3-5K (filter every other change) so it seems a waste to use expensive brand named oil if the technical spec is virtually identical other than being half the price and lacking a shiny label and coloured container. __________________ "The final measure of any rider's skill is the inverse ratio of his preferred Traveling Speed to the number of bad scars on his body." Song of the sausage creature

10-02-2013, 07:23 PM	#6
jerry Old Git Join Date: May 2006 Location: Cricklade Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 2,816	Air cooled m750 wet clutch use semi synthetic , __________________ MONSTERMAN

10-02-2013, 04:37 PM	#4
Rally Taking life easy........ Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Wiltshire Bike: Other Not a Ducati Posts: 1,969	I once used fully on a Suzuki DR350, the clutch burnt out in no time. The lubrication properties of the fully are just too much for some wet clutches. I wouldn't risk it again myself.

11-02-2013, 05:28 PM	#7
utopia No turn left unstoned Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: leicester Bike: M750 Posts: 4,545	Recommended oil is Shell Advance Ultra 4T. This is described as a fully synthetic oil, but is actually something of a special case and is often described as not being a "proper" full synthetic. This may be because it lacks some of the friction modifier additives that others contain, and hence it isn't so prone to causing the clutch slip associated with most full synthetics. My 2000 M750 has run on this oil for about 11k miles now, and I've had no clutch problems. Mind you, I tend to be fairly gentle on clutches so its probably still in a fairly unworn condition. However, I've been nervous about continuing to use it due to the large number of reports of full synth causing clutch slip. In a recent phone call to G-tec for advice, I was told that they now use the semi-synth equivalent from Shell, which I believe is Advance VSX. I intend to switch to this at the next oil change. While there is often good advice to be had from private owners, I'm more inclined to trust the extensive experience of a specialist Ducati workshop whose experience is far more wide ranging, as they will have stripped many engines and observed their state of wear resulting from the use of various different types of oil.

12-02-2013, 09:40 AM	#8
zhango Guest Posts: n/a	utopia - my advice is to carry on using Shell Advance Ultra as it is an excellent oil, recommended by Ducati and your bike runs ok on it. You are right that it is not a 'real' synthetic oil from an oil engineer's definition but it is legally called synthetic after a judge in a court case ruled that the oil had been a sufficiently modified mineral oil to define it synthetic. This opened the flood gates for the marketing guys and most of the oils that are called synthetic are really like Shell Advance and are Group 3 oils - with Group 4 and 5 being 'real' synthetics. An example of a Group 4 oil is Mobil 1 Racing 4T and a Group 5 is Motul 300V Factory Line. No oil company actually states what group their oil belongs to and this can only be assumed by looking at the Technical Data sheet. The oil group is defined by the base stock and not the additive package but it is the additive package that makes an oil suitable for a bike with a wet clutch or not. Any oil that states 'energy saving' - 'fuel saving' - 'friction modified' will most likely cause clutch slip in a bike with a wet clutch. What you have to look for is that the oil complies with the requirements of Jaso MA - and Shell Advance Ultra does. I find it disappointing that guys are put off using fully synthetic oil just because there are a few instances where clutches slipped which were assumed to be because the oil being used was fully synthetic but are likely to be because of the unsuitable additive package and the clutch was well worn anyway. I would be interested in knowing which make of oil the guys used who had clutch slip when using synthetic oil and we can look at the Tech Data sheet if it's available and try to understand why.

12-02-2013, 03:38 PM	#9
gary tompkins 1/2 man - 1/2 pogo-stick Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Dartford, Kent Bike: M900ie Posts: 7,241	Shell Advance ultra used in a M600 with less than 10,000 miles on the clock Clutch slipped like crazy until it was drained and replaced with Silkolene semi mineral 10/40 I was really peed off at wasting good money on expensive oil that I ended up chucking after 50 miles. This is why I now don't personally recommend full sythetic for wet clutch monsters. I've also heard of clutches needing new plates after contamination by full synthetic oils, at considerable expense to the owners. I just don't think it's worth risking on a wet clutch engine, when mineral oils work just as well and at far less expense. __________________ GT Fully paid up member of the S.A.S. (Scottoiler Appreciation Society) 27,000 miles on original chain - and still going strong! Last edited by gary tompkins; 13-02-2013 at 12:03 AM..

12-02-2013, 06:11 PM	#10
zhango Guest Posts: n/a	Thanks Gary but I can't explain that one - Advance Ultra does comply with Jaso MA2 and lots of Ducati bikes with wet clutches do use it ok. Fair enough if you had a problem so I can understand you saying what you do - I guess we'll just disagree on the suitability of fully synthetic oil. Shell do have a very helpful Tech Dept so did you contact them? I would have wanted to get a sample to them for analysis.

12-02-2013, 07:49 PM	#11
utopia No turn left unstoned Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: leicester Bike: M750 Posts: 4,545	The last couple of posts illustrate exactly why I'm thinking of changing to the semi-synth equivalent to Advance Ultra 4T.....following a recommendation from a respected Ducati service dept with wide experience and possibly no commercial brand loyalties to rigidly adhere to. I think it is probably true that the terms full-synth and semi-synth are fairly loose terms which can apply to oils which conform to different specific standards like JasoMA, group3,4,5 etc. I suspect that some of the reputation for clutch slip comes from people using certain grades of "proper" full-synth with its friction modifiers. On the other hand, there are cases like Gary's where the recommended "not quite full-synth...???" Advance Ultra 4 has caused problems....which were cured by changing oil to "normal" semi-synth. Obviously the oil is the lifeblood of any motor, particularly an air-cooled one perhaps, and its good to use the best oil you can get your hands on. Then again, it may be better for general engine protection to use a cheaper oil and change it more frequently, especially if the bike does short runs and sees much winter use. And after juggling all those factors, the results of your choice don't usually show themselves until the engine has done a decent enough mileage on the same oil to show its long term effects on engine wear. Bizarrely, my current stock of Advance Ultra 4T was purchased cheap from a local ducati main dealer who was changing over to a different brand....though I suspect this may have been for commercial reasons as much as anything. And I have some Advance VSX which I bought by mistake as its in almost identical packaging...which then turned out to be the oil that I was advised to change to anyway. ...............

12-02-2013, 10:22 PM	#12
jerry Old Git Join Date: May 2006 Location: Cricklade Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 2,816	shell ultra is not a proper class 5 full synthetic like motul technosynthesise 3000 15-50w which is a fully synthetic ester oil it is a class 4 synthetic made from a mineral ester , also it may be recommended by Ducati but it does not work well in wet clutch bikes , in 2 valve models it is not worth using a full synthetic . __________________ MONSTERMAN

13-02-2013, 01:28 AM	#14
utopia No turn left unstoned Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: leicester Bike: M750 Posts: 4,545	Hmmm...well I guess there's always the possibility that they put a different oil in by mistake, and didn't admit to it. Or could it even be that a residue of the previous oil, trapped on the clutch plates, reacted in an odd way with the new oil to cause the slip...??? (I accept that this is a bit of an oddball notion, but just maybe...?) Mostly, I tend to stick firmly to the manufacturers recommendations, and buy my oil from a manufacturer who has a reputation to protect and a large R&D budget. How strange then, that the recommended tipple should have a rumoured dark side. And is this just misinformed prejudice against its family name ? If so, why has my local main agent changed brands, and another avoided the tainted moniker ? Worse still, is this just a subtle, oil thread wind-up and I've taken the bait ? Either way, I have a plan..... I gonna stick to the Advance Ultra 4T as a test. At least it will be a decent long-term test under constant conditions and up to now its been fine, but..... If it does bugger the clutch, and I should need a new one, I'll damn well do a dry clutch conversion on it, and then I can use a proper full-synth, which I imagine will benefit the rest of the motor considerably. In fact I might have just convinced myself there that, all things considered, I need the clanky noise after all. Damn you, ukmoc, with your insidious, so called "oil" threads, surreptitiously luring the poor, innocent, monster lover into an ever higher state of modding compulsion.