UK Monster Owners Club Forum » .: Technical :. » Electrics » S4R Won't Start - Getting me Down - Part 1

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Old 02-06-2019, 06:02 PM   #1
Dilkris
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S4R Won't Start - Getting me Down - Part 1

This is a long thread (2 parts) – sorry – but if I don’t give you the background you won’t understand what has already been done.

OK –so I have a 2004 S4R with 7,000 miles on the clock, it is in excellent condition, shows no evidence of ever being thrown down the road, or fallen over from the side stand. I am not a Ducati man, (sorry I personally prefer water cooled Harley’s), but, other than a QD Ex Box Exhaust, the bike appears standard. I have 2 black keys, one red key and the Code Card.

It stood for some years in my garage following the fuel pump failing, (I think – it wasn’t making a noise and the fuse was OK), and I decided a few weeks back to bring her out; I cleaned out the tank and changed the fuel pump and filter, (what a job unless you have arms the size of a child….!!); Note: the replacement items came in “Ducati” boxes. Further to this I changed oil and filter, (including draining the oil cooler), flushed and refilled coolant, changed hydraulic fluid to brakes and clutch.

It wouldn’t start…..

Symptoms: (not in any order) Clocks cycle, fuel pump primes, all 6 lights in the dash panel light and after a couple of seconds they go out, leaving only the Neutral and Oil light illuminated. Note: the flashing immobilizer light also goes out (showing I believe that the bike has accepted the code in the key.) The engine turns over, albeit under the influence of the servoignition system. (See later)

I remove plugs and Ignition Coil assemblies and establish that I do have a sparks – good in fact – but remember there is no compression now and the motor spins over well.

OK – so I am thinking blocked injectors. I remove and clean as best as I can, unlike most injectors you cannot, without the specialised kit, simulate operation on the bench. Yes you can energise the coils to ascertain they are opening, (they were – I could clearly here and “feel” the clicking), but I couldn’t find any way to inject any cleaner into them. The Injectors on the S4R receive fuel via an annular indent which is protected by a very fine gauze filter, running around the circumference of each injector body. This indent, which is positioned between the upper and lower “O” Rings on the injector body, is fed obviously via the throttle body. As such, the only way I guess to “feed” the injectors on a bench would be to remove the injectors complete with the throttle body. Anyway – I didn’t, I left them soaking in “carb cleaner” overnight, cycled the coils a few times and blew them out as best as I could with compressed air.

Whilst all this is going on and with the benefit of the lower air box off, I check every connector, fuse and relay I could find. I separated them, looking for corrosion and sprayed each male and female terminal with electrical contact cleaner.

A reassemble and it starts!! – I run the engine up to 115/120 to ascertain fans are operational – they are. Happy days!!! I head straight to the bar fridge.
Following morning – she won’t start. All symptons good – just no bang.
 
Old 08-07-2019, 11:35 AM   #2
CJ haughey
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Did you get any further on this as I have a 620 doing something similar on me
 
Old 08-07-2019, 02:12 PM   #3
Darren69
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One of the interlocks failing perhaps (Side stand/clutch)?
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Old 15-07-2019, 09:10 AM   #4
Dilkris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ haughey View Post
Did you get any further on this as I have a 620 doing something similar on me
No - I didn't - I put it away and decided to have a break from it. I am honestly running out of things to check - it has been suggested that it is an immobilizer fault - but I don't understand, if it is, should the engine still turn over on the start button ?? (which it does)
It is becoming the most frustrating bike/car I have ever worked on......
 
Old 15-07-2019, 10:51 AM   #5
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Further to my thread above, I am about to get back into searching for the problem but just to be clear about one thing that I am somewhat confused with:- If there is an interlock fault, (side stand, clutch or neutral switch) or indeed an immobilizer fault, (Anthony from Avanti Race Parts has advised that I have an S4 with the "dreaded extra immo box") will the engine still turn over???
Surely if any of the above mentioned are at fault, the ECU will neutralize the starter motor circuit and the engine will not turn over on the start switch - or is my thinking wrong.???
I ask this question because the engine does turn over and in doing so, does this not rule out, most certainly, the possibility of any interlock faults???
Outstanding issue is the dreaded extra immobilizer box, (which now appears to be in the equation) - will the engine still turn over, but not fire, if this is at fault.....????
 
Old 15-07-2019, 10:55 AM   #6
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I may be wrong...usually am...but I thought immobilisers just stopped ignition spark. So you could crank it over but it'll never fire up.

Different immobilisers might work differently; kill bike, kill ignition etc.
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Old 15-07-2019, 11:06 AM   #7
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Sorry you've not got to the bottom of this issue yet, Dilkris.

If the 'interlock' cuts in then the motor won't crank at all but, from my experience with my old S2R, if the immobiliser isn't disengaged then the engine will turn over but not run. I fitted a carbon ignition switch cover to mine and failed to locate the immobiliser antenna correctly. When I pressed the start button, the engine would spin and fire sporadically but wouldn't catch. Unfortunately, I can't remember what, if anything, the immobiliser light was showing during all this.

You've already spoken to Avanti - is it perhaps time to send them your ECU for checking?
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Old 15-07-2019, 12:20 PM   #8
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For Ron and Luddite - thanks for your rapid comments. For Ron, there must be a difference between how interlocks and immobilizers work; I would expect interlocks (side stand, clutch, neutral) to send a signal to the ECU making the starter circuit inoperable, (I mean if they didn't, turning over the engine with side stand down and the bike in gear could be cosmetically very expensive...expecially if you were not sitting on it at the time!!!). But the immobilizer?? This is the awkward one.
Luddite, "yes" - I agree all your comments. I have the ECU off and ready to post to Anthony, (Avanti), have sent him a mail again explaining the history and am waiting a reply - he is clearly very busy. I am presently out of the country but back the end of the month; if I get a positive response my wife can post it to him - I am somewhat assured by his much earlier comment in the thread that this series S4R did suffer from ECU failures.
Its all an issue of not giving in right now.....
 
Old 15-07-2019, 12:57 PM   #9
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RE interlocks, yes my interlocks; side stand etc wont even allow cranking. safety first I suppose.

Immobiliser is primarily an anti theft thing. so yeah could be any way the manufacturer programs them I suppose - Lud has the answer tho by the looks of it.

I see your predicament tho; is the interlocks causing issues or the immobiliser or both. I'd say stick it on a rear stand, side stand up, in neutral and kill switch not killed as such.

Surely that'll get it round the interlocks, unless your dash is dead. That kills everything too.....I think.

Last edited by Ron1000; 15-07-2019 at 01:16 PM..
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Old 15-07-2019, 02:28 PM   #10
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Dash is live, all lights sequence correctly, fuel pump cycling, engine turns over. I think the problem will be found within the ECU, but then as Avanti has pointed out, the ECU will not necessarily show a fault for an immobilizer fault.....
Honestly - who could dream up this logic.....???
 
Old 15-07-2019, 02:58 PM   #11
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it’s more likely to be a dodgy aerial or connector. ecu will tend to work or not.
you don’t have an ‘immo box’ that’s a peculiarity of early s4 (& st4), antony @avanti will have told you to check for it if he thought you said s4, as it’s the weak link on those models.
the good news is, he’ll only charge return postage if he doesn’t find a fault.
he can probably disable the immobiliser in a 59m if you ask him to.

sorry to state the obvious but... i assume you’ve tried other keys?

ron, my 59m equipped m1000 will turn but not fire, if the immobiliser kicks in (ignition on for 30+ seconds without starting)

Last edited by slob; 15-07-2019 at 03:01 PM..
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Old 15-07-2019, 06:34 PM   #12
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The Crank position sensor, or signal from it?
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Old 16-07-2019, 10:24 AM   #13
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Sorry Chris, I'm closing this thread to force replies on to 'Part 2' http://ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=57485
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