Valve adjustments.

[Macflurry]

Hi guys,

Started looking into replacing valve seals and thought before I start I should check my valve clearances and see if there's any additional work to do and any parts to order.

I've seen some decent guides for checking the clearances but I've had a bit of a snag. All of the guides have a clearance for the opener shim for the first measurement which is used with the clearance for the closer shim to work out any current values and adjustments. I have no clearance for the opener shims on the vertical head even when I use 0.0015" feelers.

The engine is at TDC and I've spun the wheel and checked the clearance 3 times with the dots lined up in the sight window in the same way that I saw/read onthe DucatiSuite.com site:



But even if I try to spin the opener shim with my fingers it feels slightly bound until the pressure gives and it starts to spin. So there is always contact.

Is this really just a case of remove the opener shim and sand it until it is free of any binding or is there something that I've overlooked that I should double check first?

[Macflurry]

My other question was if the two shims had to be adjusted in a set order? In case the adjustment of one impacted the other.

Safest to ask as there's what I think should happen vs. what actually happens...

[Nickj]

The clearances on the openers can be tight, 0.1-0.15mm isn't much of a gap.

Might be tight if the valves have seated down a little into their beds, no lead in the fuel does mean a little more wear despite the additives.

General thoughts...
only rotate in one direction if you have the belts on as their will be a little lash in the gears so back and forwrd to TDC may not be helpful!
As you're probably changing the belts check with them off, much easier to rotate just the cam accurately to TDC

[Macflurry]

Thanks for that. The openers definitely feel like something is pressing on them when you try to spin them around.

I've only measured the vertical ones so far but openers are 0.00" with the shims turning but feel like they're binding and for the closers In= 0.0035" and Ex= 0.008". So both closers gaps are massive if the openers gaps are 0.00 as there's no adjustment to the measurements.

[Dukedesmo]

Originally Posted by Macflurry

Thanks for that. The openers definitely feel like something is pressing on them when you try to spin them around.

I've only measured the vertical ones so far but openers are 0.00" with the shims turning but feel like they're binding and for the closers In= 0.0035" and Ex= 0.008". So both closers gaps are massive if the openers gaps are 0.00 as there's no adjustment to the measurements.

Unless carbon/crud buildup under valve seats then as things wear the openers get tighter and closers looser.

Set the closers as tight as you can without binding. IIRC original specs were 0.03 - 0.05mm closers and 0.10 - 0.12mm intake and 0.12 - 0.15mm exhaust openers, personally I wouldn't go any bigger than 0.12 even on exhaust.

They later 'relaxed' the tolerances to reduce maintenance requirements.

[Macflurry]

I definitely think my shims will need some TLC as mine seem well out.

My openers are now both less than 0.0015". You can hear them tap if you press them.

My closers are around 0.005". Its like someone has set them backwards!!

I'll check the horizontal one when I get back home to see if that one is the same.

[Dukedesmo]

Originally Posted by Macflurry

Its like someone has set them backwards!!

As it wears, what gets lost on the opener is (in theory) gained on the closer so 'backwards' settings is a symptom of lack of maintenance.

[slob]

Yep, normal for an engine that's been used hard and overdue for a service.

[Macflurry]

Originally Posted by Dukedesmo

As it wears, what gets lost on the opener is (in theory) gained on the closer so 'backwards' settings is a symptom of lack of maintenance.

Ok, here's the bit that is getting lost on me with all of the webpages and guides that I have read... where do you start to effectively zero your clearances? If that makes sense?

It's all good when you read measure the gaps, measure your shims then swap them based on the difference but if wear on one shim or the valves seating in the had impacts the measurements of the other then which bit do you account for first? As swapping one would then potentially cure the other.

Or is it a case of as the valves bed further into the head the opener clearance reduces and the closer increases so both have to be swapped to account for the whole valve seating further in and throwing them both out?

Apologise if this is a noob question but it has been the one part that has evaded me for the past week or so when reading around. I've never been a fan of just do this and it works solutions. I usually have to find out why before I'm happy.

[Dukedesmo]

Originally Posted by Macflurry

Or is it a case of as the valves bed further into the head the opener clearance reduces and the closer increases so both have to be swapped to account for the whole valve seating further in and throwing them both out?

Exactly, at least in theory; if the closer clearance has grown by 'x' then the opener will have shrunk by 'x' although each needs to be measured individually as there are other variables.

If you're planning on doing your own maintenance and keeping the bike then it's definitely worth buying a shim kit from EMS in the USA; https://emsduc.com/ otherwise you'll be running to/from the dealer for shims, plus the price of the kit is less than the labour on a dealer service so actually good value IMO.

[Macflurry]

Originally Posted by Dukedesmo

Exactly, at least in theory; if the closer clearance has grown by 'x' then the opener will have shrunk by 'x' although each needs to be measured individually as there are other variables.

Perfect, thank you. That's what I took from a lot of what I read but nowhere actually seemed to state it outright. So rather than assume it and make something worse I though I had better just ask and look stupid for 5 minutes.

Thanks again bud!!

[utopia]

I was holding back from commenting because I have heard folk expressing contrary opinions on this.
However, in my own experience, which is limited to just two occasions of checking the clearances and where shim adjustment was required on only one of those occasions, my findings were that ......adjusting the openers affects the closers and therefore they have to be done "in sympathy" with each other.
This was done about 10k miles ago and all seems to have been well since then.
As I said, I have heard folk claiming that the adjustments for the closers and the openers are independent of each other, but that was not my experience.

If you haven't already checked out Chris Kelly's video on two valve shim adjustment (Ducatitech) I can recommend his method of checking the closer clearance via the opener shim .. its much simpler and in my opinion is therefore more accurate in the final analysis, despite being an indirect measurement.

Finally, many folk advocate "sanding" the shims on fine emery to achieve exactly the shim thickness required.
Personally, I would not do that as these shims will be hardened and then ground to accurate levels of squareness and offhand "sanding" could well disrupt that geometric accuracy.
Std shims should give you all the accuracy you need to get the clearances within the recommended tolerances.

The above is just my own opinions but, without wishing to pull rank, I do speak as one who has engineering training and experience.
Hope that helps.

[Macflurry]

Originally Posted by utopia

I was holding back from commenting because I have heard folk expressing contrary opinions on this.
However, in my own experience, which is limited to just two occasions of checking the clearances and where shim adjustment was required on only one of those occasions, my findings were that ......adjusting the openers affects the closers and therefore they have to be done "in sympathy" with each other.

This was one of the points that was in the back of my mind when asking as one of my openers was binding so there is no direct measurement. So assuming it is a 0.000" gap wouldn't work unless they are independent, as if it is that far out it would then be beyond 0 and possibly skewing the results/measurements on the other side.

I did watch the Ducatitech videos but they didn't seem to answer all of my questions as there seemed to be gaps in the info for the questions that I had.