Advice on header connections. - Page 3

Yorkie · 28-01-2019, 08:33 PM

My single sided headers are nearly done:

Yorkie

utopia · 29-01-2019, 10:34 AM

Hmm .. having once again taken the hacksaw to my system, those neat welds are making me twitch.

Glad you've sorted that though ... I never was a fan of exhaust wrap, so I'm happy that it was only temporary.
That's quite a neat bit of pipery at the junction.

utopia · 29-01-2019, 11:07 AM

So, last night I finished the second (temporary) adaptor stub with the tapered bore.
Worked a treat.
I also found that I can fine tune the fit of the system by adjusting the effective length of the stubs.
This will be very handy, particularly as my first attempt at shortening the headers for the 750 (by removing 10mm from the rear one) had been a tad ambitious.

I then took the plunge and hacked off all of the damaged section from the front header.
I also hacked Capo's old link pipe (actually from an S4RS, it turns out) into a suitable length to replace the removed section.
As a happy accident, the connector sleeves on the end of said S4RS link pipes were cut off to yield a pair of close-fitting external sleeves which will enable me to temporarily join the pipes together during the initial re-fitting process, prior to welding.
With any luck I will also be able to use them, along with clamps, to hold the mating sections together during tack-welding (which will have to be done off the bike). I'll just drill three holes in the sleeves, to access the welds.

So, I'm off to the shed now with a collection of bits of pipe, hacksaw, file and cuppa.
And a bit of a grin.

A few days ago I was thinking that I might get this system modded and welded, ready to use by late spring.
The Weekender was a loose deadline.
I now rather fancy that I might phone the welder as early as later this week.
I love it when jobs go smoothly. Its often the other way round.

Mr Gazza · 29-01-2019, 03:56 PM

The wind's changed then?...

Flip · 03-02-2019, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Gazza

Flip, we talked about your exhaust system quite a while back and you mentioned making a few sets then. Just to say I'm still interested if I am flush when you are ready to have some made. They look just the ticket, but I'm wondering why they are made in sections? surely they could be fitted in one piece, especially the front pipe.[/url]

I can only think that being made in several pieces it gives the system some 'wiggle room' when fitting along with being much smaller to package but I too have got to thinking it might look better it is was a one piece front pipe like the original and the system Mark has made for Yorkie.

Mark at MADASL also did a Spaghetti system which currently he is not making but he might if there was enough interest so I am trying to get some comparative costs of copying my system by the people who made my little race bikes' exhaust and that from Mark.

Flip · 03-02-2019, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by utopia

Excellent stuff, Flip.
And thanks very much for the offer.
I'll see how things go.

Your system is interesting actually.
Am I seeing it right ? ... It looks like your stubs fit INSIDE the headers rather than outside .....?
That's the direction that my thoughts are going at the moment.
In fact I'm currently having a bash at machining up some adaptor sleeves that will enable me to do a mock-up assembly using internal-fitting stubs which are basically the cut-off ends from std headers (with further sleeves to adapt their 40mm OD to the 42.5mm bore of the Sil headers).
These are being made from the aforementioned rusty scaffold tube.
With any luck, using these I might even be able to fire up the motor briefly with the system reasonably securely fitted.

If your stubs are fitted inside the headers, could you measure the bore for me please ?
I'm wondering if they've attempted to blend the diameters of exhaust port and pipe as I mentioned before.

And yes, I think you have a point about the benefit of losing the X collector.
I'd forgotten about that.
Putting it all together, I reckon I would be unlucky to end up with a worse system than my current one .. which leaves the weight loss and simplicity benefits as gains.
Best case scenario might even be a few more bhp and better mid-range torque .. but tbh, my holy grail is only a meagre 70 bhp.
That's enough on the right roads .. but I do like light weight and a nimble chassis.

Where's the fingers crossed smiley face ??

Jeff, apologies but I haven't had much time to get in the garage this week- do you still want the measurements etc?

Let me know and I will dig out the box of pipes and get the vernier at the ready.

utopia · 03-02-2019, 11:14 AM

No worries, Flip.
I think I've sussed how your system works now.
It looks like the flanges are captive, in that they are held between the two end welds on the short terminal sections closest to the heads.
Thus the first short section of header tube is bolted to the heads, with subsequent sections connected to each other via spring retained slip joints.
This is a different set-up to the others which have a short, straight, machined stub bolted in via loose-fit flanges, with the first proper header section being retained to those by springs which connect directly to the flanges.
..... if that makes any sense.

I'm still curious as to whether there is a step where the headers abutt the exhaust ports on your system but its academic really so I don't think there's any need to go rummaging with the vernier .... but thanks.

utopia · 01-03-2019, 11:25 AM

Bit of an update ...

I've made the connector stubs.
The design includes a short section where the bore tapers from the 750 exhaust port dia to the big bore pipe dia, over about a 10mm length.
It looks "right" at least ... time will tell as to how well it functions.

I had a bit of a setback with the welding.
Last time I needed some welding done (beyond my personal skill level) I found a brilliant guy to do the job.
He actually had the exhaust from Michael Dunlop's TT BMW on the bench when I first went there, so I knew I had the right guy for the job.
But, 12 months later I find that he's packed up shop and gone to earn better money welding for Rolls Royce.
Bugger.
So, long story short, I've just got back from the car exhaust place down the road, clutching my newly welded system.
Actually its not fully welded yet .. I've left one joint just tacked so that I can do a trial fit and check that nothing has moved before getting the final joint welded.
I had to settle for mig rather than tig but the welder is a biker himself so at least he had the right kind of empathy.
The finished welds aren't too snotty and should dress up quite neatly.
As soon as I've finished my coffee and my bacon and brie panini, I'll be heading nervously out to the shed to try it for fit.
Wish me luck.

utopia · 01-03-2019, 02:23 PM

Update, part two ...

The trial fitting (before welding the last joint) went very well indeed.
In fact, I could detect no movement during welding whatsoever.
So, I've nipped back down the road and had the final joint finish welded.
And ....
It still fits like it grew there.
In fact, although the headers are a very close, sliding fit in the stubs, if I remove the retaining springs from the front header, it will slide smoothly in its stub if you tug it gently.
So everything must be pretty much aligned.
Whoopee !

Just two more hurdles to go now.
1) Does it leak at the stubs ?
2) How does it perform ?

I was going to do the valve clearances before I roll the bike out again but I might just have to start it ... and answer the other question which now (of course) occurs to me, namely ..
How does it sound ?

Mr Gazza · 01-03-2019, 04:41 PM

Sounds like you're getting there with it now. But you know the rules on here... Pictures or it didn't happen..

Hope the sound is as good as your expectations.

bigredduke · 01-03-2019, 05:17 PM

Well done Jeff!

You must be exhausted.

BigOz · 25-03-2019, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by utopia

I had to settle for mig rather than tig but the welder is a biker himself so at least he had the right kind of empathy.

I'm hoping he used Stainless wire?

I've fixed a couple of jobs where normal/carbon steel wire was used on stainless it works and will hold, sometimes for quite a while but along with quickly rusting it will eventually crack along the toes of the weld.

If your going to be blending out the welds use clean fresh abrasives. Using abrasives that have been used on other steels can smear grains of the other steels from the abrasives into the surface of your stainless leaving you with stainless with rust spots after a while.

utopia · 25-03-2019, 01:57 PM

Well to be perfectly honest I don't remember asking, but that was because I was pretty sure that it would be stainless wire ... he only deals with stainless exhaust fabrication.

And yes, I have blended the welds (well 90% anyway).
I used a flap wheel that I have only previously used on ally.

Tbh, I feel a bit disappointed that I wasn't able to get some of your own welding work on the bike, for sentiment as much as quality, but the logistics of clamping it all up and then getting it down south without it moving precluded that, sadly.
The guy who did it works within walking distance of my house.

This has all got me motivated to buy myself a little tig machine and have a go myself in future.
Welding has always been one of those engineering skills that I have lacked (though I did dip my toe in the mig pool last year).

Latest news is that I fired the bike up in the shed and, on first impressions, it is "illegitimately" loud.
So I made up a little db killer type of baffle using a cone of Capo's left over perforated (stainless) core tube and nipped down the road to get it welded up.
Seems to work quite well and although it may not be a permanent fixture, it gives me options.

The sound is just as I had hoped .. not so much a harsh "brapp" but more of a bass "bwop" if you see what I mean.

A few pics will hopefully follow, once I've sorted out the "postimage" thing.

28-01-2019, 08:33 PM	#31
Yorkie Anglo-Saxon Warrior Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: North Yorkshire Bike: M900 Posts: 2,485	My single sided headers are nearly done: Yorkie __________________ NO ICE, GUN IT!

29-01-2019, 03:56 PM	#34
Mr Gazza Lord of the Rings Join Date: May 2013 Location: Norwich Bike: M900sie Posts: 5,795	The wind's changed then?... __________________

01-03-2019, 04:41 PM	#40
Mr Gazza Lord of the Rings Join Date: May 2013 Location: Norwich Bike: M900sie Posts: 5,795	Sounds like you're getting there with it now. But you know the rules on here... Pictures or it didn't happen.. Hope the sound is as good as your expectations. __________________

29-01-2019, 10:34 AM	#32
utopia No turn left unstoned Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: leicester Bike: M750 Posts: 4,545	Hmm .. having once again taken the hacksaw to my system, those neat welds are making me twitch. Glad you've sorted that though ... I never was a fan of exhaust wrap, so I'm happy that it was only temporary. That's quite a neat bit of pipery at the junction.

29-01-2019, 11:07 AM	#33
utopia No turn left unstoned Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: leicester Bike: M750 Posts: 4,545	So, last night I finished the second (temporary) adaptor stub with the tapered bore. Worked a treat. I also found that I can fine tune the fit of the system by adjusting the effective length of the stubs. This will be very handy, particularly as my first attempt at shortening the headers for the 750 (by removing 10mm from the rear one) had been a tad ambitious. I then took the plunge and hacked off all of the damaged section from the front header. I also hacked Capo's old link pipe (actually from an S4RS, it turns out) into a suitable length to replace the removed section. As a happy accident, the connector sleeves on the end of said S4RS link pipes were cut off to yield a pair of close-fitting external sleeves which will enable me to temporarily join the pipes together during the initial re-fitting process, prior to welding. With any luck I will also be able to use them, along with clamps, to hold the mating sections together during tack-welding (which will have to be done off the bike). I'll just drill three holes in the sleeves, to access the welds. So, I'm off to the shed now with a collection of bits of pipe, hacksaw, file and cuppa. And a bit of a grin. A few days ago I was thinking that I might get this system modded and welded, ready to use by late spring. The Weekender was a loose deadline. I now rather fancy that I might phone the welder as early as later this week. I love it when jobs go smoothly. Its often the other way round.

03-02-2019, 11:14 AM	#37
utopia No turn left unstoned Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: leicester Bike: M750 Posts: 4,545	No worries, Flip. I think I've sussed how your system works now. It looks like the flanges are captive, in that they are held between the two end welds on the short terminal sections closest to the heads. Thus the first short section of header tube is bolted to the heads, with subsequent sections connected to each other via spring retained slip joints. This is a different set-up to the others which have a short, straight, machined stub bolted in via loose-fit flanges, with the first proper header section being retained to those by springs which connect directly to the flanges. ..... if that makes any sense. I'm still curious as to whether there is a step where the headers abutt the exhaust ports on your system but its academic really so I don't think there's any need to go rummaging with the vernier .... but thanks.

01-03-2019, 11:25 AM	#38
utopia No turn left unstoned Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: leicester Bike: M750 Posts: 4,545	Bit of an update ... I've made the connector stubs. The design includes a short section where the bore tapers from the 750 exhaust port dia to the big bore pipe dia, over about a 10mm length. It looks "right" at least ... time will tell as to how well it functions. I had a bit of a setback with the welding. Last time I needed some welding done (beyond my personal skill level) I found a brilliant guy to do the job. He actually had the exhaust from Michael Dunlop's TT BMW on the bench when I first went there, so I knew I had the right guy for the job. But, 12 months later I find that he's packed up shop and gone to earn better money welding for Rolls Royce. Bugger. So, long story short, I've just got back from the car exhaust place down the road, clutching my newly welded system. Actually its not fully welded yet .. I've left one joint just tacked so that I can do a trial fit and check that nothing has moved before getting the final joint welded. I had to settle for mig rather than tig but the welder is a biker himself so at least he had the right kind of empathy. The finished welds aren't too snotty and should dress up quite neatly. As soon as I've finished my coffee and my bacon and brie panini, I'll be heading nervously out to the shed to try it for fit. Wish me luck.

01-03-2019, 02:23 PM	#39
utopia No turn left unstoned Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: leicester Bike: M750 Posts: 4,545	Update, part two ... The trial fitting (before welding the last joint) went very well indeed. In fact, I could detect no movement during welding whatsoever. So, I've nipped back down the road and had the final joint finish welded. And .... It still fits like it grew there. In fact, although the headers are a very close, sliding fit in the stubs, if I remove the retaining springs from the front header, it will slide smoothly in its stub if you tug it gently. So everything must be pretty much aligned. Whoopee ! Just two more hurdles to go now. 1) Does it leak at the stubs ? 2) How does it perform ? I was going to do the valve clearances before I roll the bike out again but I might just have to start it ... and answer the other question which now (of course) occurs to me, namely .. How does it sound ?

01-03-2019, 05:17 PM	#41
bigredduke Nothing to see here Join Date: May 2005 Location: brough Bike: M1100evo Posts: 1,546	Well done Jeff! You must be exhausted.

25-03-2019, 01:57 PM	#43
utopia No turn left unstoned Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: leicester Bike: M750 Posts: 4,545	Well to be perfectly honest I don't remember asking, but that was because I was pretty sure that it would be stainless wire ... he only deals with stainless exhaust fabrication. And yes, I have blended the welds (well 90% anyway). I used a flap wheel that I have only previously used on ally. Tbh, I feel a bit disappointed that I wasn't able to get some of your own welding work on the bike, for sentiment as much as quality, but the logistics of clamping it all up and then getting it down south without it moving precluded that, sadly. The guy who did it works within walking distance of my house. This has all got me motivated to buy myself a little tig machine and have a go myself in future. Welding has always been one of those engineering skills that I have lacked (though I did dip my toe in the mig pool last year). Latest news is that I fired the bike up in the shed and, on first impressions, it is "illegitimately" loud. So I made up a little db killer type of baffle using a cone of Capo's left over perforated (stainless) core tube and nipped down the road to get it welded up. Seems to work quite well and although it may not be a permanent fixture, it gives me options. The sound is just as I had hoped .. not so much a harsh "brapp" but more of a bass "bwop" if you see what I mean. A few pics will hopefully follow, once I've sorted out the "postimage" thing.