Help and advice

20-11-2019, 07:47 PM

Hi guys,

Has anyone experienced a faulty abs pump on a monster 821?
Got new pads and brakes bled 3 times in the last month but the breaks are still sprongy.
Can't figure out why.
It is unlikely that the brake pumps both failed at the same time.

Maurizio.
Thank you in advance for your help and advice

Mr Gazza · 21-11-2019, 04:13 PM

I'll have a shot at this since no-one else seems to know.

Bearing in mind that I don't have an 821, nor any ABS.
First thoughts are that the pads need some more time to bed in. They reckon that they need a hundred cycles to bed in properly, that is to say applied a hundred times, but it does depend on the condition of your discs to some extent and also how hard each application is.
Pads tend to feel woody during the bedding in period though and not spongy.

I have heard that the actual ABS pump itself is a pig to bleed. Apparently if you try and bleed from the caliper or master (if you have a nipple up there), in the normal fashion, it can prove frustrating. I believe that the pump itself has a bleed nipple?
Have a look at the pump to see if you can find a nipple, if you have not already done so.

Might be talking complete bullshine here, but someone with more savvy might be along to prove me wrong.

21-11-2019, 04:49 PM

I had a 'spongy' feel to the front brake on my Monster, kept bleeding it resulting in the occasional small bubble but no real improvement. Left the brake tied back overnight etc. No improvement.

Decided to bite the bullet and investigate a new pump so opened the r/h caliper nipple completely to start draining the sytem, after a couple of pumps with full flow through the drain tube, I felt the vibrations as a load of air came through! Tightened the nipple and wow! the brake was superb! topped up the reservoir and brake was good from then on.

My conclusion is that my 'conventional' bleeding method of cracking open the nipple and then closing it again just did not move enough fluid to get the air out? may be worth a try FWIW

bigredduke · 21-11-2019, 05:05 PM

The Evo has ABS, but I don't know if it's a similar system to the 821. You can get bleed kits (usually for cars admittedly but don't see why they wouldn't work) that use tyre pressure to push the new brake fluid through & remove the bubbles.

https://www.halfords.com/workshop-to...nson-eezibleed

The kits come with various caps for reservoirs but I don't know if one of them is compatible with bikes.

350TSS · 21-11-2019, 06:12 PM

I have an eazibleed and I do not think the eazibleed caps fit a bike.
I also have a Sealy bleeding tool which works off an airline - not to force fluid through but rather to create a vacuum and draw the air through the brake fluid - bit like a spray gun venturi effect - uses a lot of air and relies on the master cylinder reservoir being topped up regularly unlike the eazibleed. It is not good for a complete fluid change because the fluid hardly moves.

Darren69 · 21-11-2019, 06:25 PM

As Gazza said bleed the pump but start first by bleeding at the top banjo from the master cylinder and bleed using that. Just wrap it in rag and cover everything to make sure no fluid spills. Worked for me but i dont have abs but have read the pump can trap air.

slob · 22-11-2019, 01:45 PM

Ducati recommend pushing the pistons back into the calipers before bleeding the master cylinders.

From the 1200R manual:

Bleeding of the ABS hydraulic system

If brake controls feel "spongy" due to the presence of air bubbles in the system, bleed as usual, as described in
sections "Changing the front brake system fluid" and "Changing the rear brake system fluid".
Before bleeding a brake master cylinder, move back the caliper pistons as indicated in (Changing the fluid in the front
brake system,Changing the fluid in the rear brake system) to let any air build-up in the ABS control unit flow into the
master cylinder.
Purge must be carried out by means of the corresponding unions (A) placed on the calipers and the brake master cylinders.

Important
Do not undo the special screws securing the pipe unions on the ABS hydraulic control unit, unless control unit
replacement is necessary.

Important
If the ABS hydraulic control unit has been replaced, it will be supplied with the secondary circuit already filled with
fluid. Control unit must thus be assembled and the system filled and drained as a traditional system.

Which is way better than some systems, for instance recent fireblades need connecting to Honda diagnostics and then you spend a couple of hours running round the bike with the drain bottle and topping up reservoirs as the computer pumps fluid to various locations.

slob · 22-11-2019, 02:05 PM

BLEEDING THE REAR BRAKE SYSTEM

Connect bleeding tool to left-hand front brake calliper bleed valve (3) or to rear brake bleed valve (8).
Note
Follow the manufacturer's instructions when using a commercial brake bleeding tool. Suck with the bleeding tool and open the bleed valve (3) making sure that the level of the concerned reservoir does not fall below the "MIN" mark.
Continue this operation until all air is bled out of system.
Tighten bleed valve (3) to a torque of 4Nm ± 10%.

Warning
Dispose of oil and/or filter cartridges in compliance with environmental protection regulations.

Press pedal to make half stroke or until system is pressurised, open bleed valve and let pedal make full stroke; tighten bleed valve to the specified torque and release pedal.

Important
Do not release the brake pedal until the bleed valve has been fully tightened. Repeat the operation until the fluid inside system is free of air bubbles. Make sure that, with bleed valve duly closed, pressure is correctly developed through brake pedal. Tighten bleed valve (3) to a torque of 4Nm ± 10%, and fit protective cap.

BLEEDING THE FRONT BRAKE SYSTEM

Fill the reservoir (2) with the specified fluid taken from an intact container.

Important
During this operation, fluid level inside reservoir must remain above the MIN mark at all times. The end of the transparent plastic hose must remain immersed in the discharged fluid at all times.

Operate brake lever or pedal and keep them operated during the whole filling operation.
Connect bleeding tool to left-hand front brake calliper bleed valve (5).

Note
Follow the manufacturer's instructions when using a
commercial clutch bleeding tool. Suck with the bleeding tool and open the bleed valve (5) making sure that the level of the concerned reservoir does not fall
below the "MIN" mark. Continue this operation until all air is bled out of system.
Tighten bleed valve (5) to a torque of 4Nm ± 10%.

If you do not have a bleeding tool available, connect a transparent plastic tubing to the bleed valve (5) as outlined in the draining procedure. Operate the lever to make half stroke or until system is pressurised, open bleed valve and let lever make full stroke; tighten bleed valve to the specified torque and release lever.

Important
Do not release the brake lever until the bleed valve has been fully tightened.
Repeat the bleeding operation until the fluid inside system is free of air bubbles; once filling is completed, proceed to bleeding by working on all system valves, one at a time.
Then repeat bleeding procedure on right-hand front calliper valve (5).
In particular, to completely eliminate any air possibly trapped at the highest point of the front brake master cylinder, perform the same procedure on the bleed valve (6), after having loosened nut (7) and connected bleeding tool to the transparent plastic
tubing, as outlined in the draining procedure.
Make sure that, with bleed valves duly closed, pressure is correctly developed through brake lever or pedal.
Tighten bleed valves (5) and nut (7) to a torque of 4Nm ± 10%, and fit protective cap. Level fluid and refit cover (1) by tightening screws (3) on reservoir (2)

28-11-2019, 03:58 AM

Thank you all for your advices.
I'll give it all a try and take it from there.
The pads have been on for a couple of months and I do around 55k a day on the bike on average.

I was not told about any type of issues to the discs.

Perhaps my local garage was too quick to dismiss the bike by just saying that the abs pump is faulty instead of bleeding the brakes properly.

Cheers guys.

Cousin it · 28-11-2019, 10:49 AM

I had issues with the rear brake on my 821, very spongy to not working at all, had a garage look at it after I had struggled to get a pedal and they had exactly the same problems as I did, I put the bike in for its 9k service the other week and it came back with perfect brakes front and rear, I have no idea what they did differently but it may be worth trying a different dealer.

28-11-2019, 02:56 PM

Having problems with the 821 rear brake. From new it needs bleeding all the time because it is non-existent at times. Had the bike in Moto Rapido who changed the rear caliper not so long ago. Not many miles done since but last weekend there was no rear brake at all. Just phoned Moto Rapido who are going to get back to me.

350TSS · 28-11-2019, 04:08 PM

This is a non trivial problem - it cannot be dismissed as Italian "character" and looking on other forums it seems to be a fairly common occurrence not just on 821 but Multistrada and Hypermotards as well.
If you involved in an accident and get hurt would the insurance pay out if it was found that the back brake was not working or would any potential compensation be reduced (contributory negligence)? what about if you injure someone else with your bike because you failed to stop? If you get stopped by the plod and they discover a non working brake - licence points/fine if you do not use the back brake much it may happen without your knowledge.
This is surely a recall issue?
How does an individual owner force a resolution of a "dangerous" defect through a recall?
More questions than answers - does anybody know? (another one)

20-11-2019, 07:47 PM	#1
Maurizio245 Guest Posts: n/a	Help and advice Hi guys, Has anyone experienced a faulty abs pump on a monster 821? Got new pads and brakes bled 3 times in the last month but the breaks are still sprongy. Can't figure out why. It is unlikely that the brake pumps both failed at the same time. Maurizio. Thank you in advance for your help and advice

21-11-2019, 04:13 PM	#2
Mr Gazza Lord of the Rings Join Date: May 2013 Location: Norwich Bike: M900sie Posts: 5,805	I'll have a shot at this since no-one else seems to know. Bearing in mind that I don't have an 821, nor any ABS. First thoughts are that the pads need some more time to bed in. They reckon that they need a hundred cycles to bed in properly, that is to say applied a hundred times, but it does depend on the condition of your discs to some extent and also how hard each application is. Pads tend to feel woody during the bedding in period though and not spongy. I have heard that the actual ABS pump itself is a pig to bleed. Apparently if you try and bleed from the caliper or master (if you have a nipple up there), in the normal fashion, it can prove frustrating. I believe that the pump itself has a bleed nipple? Have a look at the pump to see if you can find a nipple, if you have not already done so. Might be talking complete bullshine here, but someone with more savvy might be along to prove me wrong. __________________

21-11-2019, 06:25 PM	#6
Darren69 Transmaniacon MOC Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Sutton In Ashfield Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 6,022	As Gazza said bleed the pump but start first by bleeding at the top banjo from the master cylinder and bleed using that. Just wrap it in rag and cover everything to make sure no fluid spills. Worked for me but i dont have abs but have read the pump can trap air. __________________ Roast Beef Monster! Termignoni and Bucci - Italian for pipe and slippers! S4 Fogarty, S4R 07T, 748, Series 1 Mirage

28-11-2019, 10:49 AM	#10
Cousin it Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: plymouth Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 62	I had issues with the rear brake on my 821, very spongy to not working at all, had a garage look at it after I had struggled to get a pedal and they had exactly the same problems as I did, I put the bike in for its 9k service the other week and it came back with perfect brakes front and rear, I have no idea what they did differently but it may be worth trying a different dealer. __________________ 04 S4R 15 821

21-11-2019, 04:49 PM	#3
rman Guest Posts: n/a	I had a 'spongy' feel to the front brake on my Monster, kept bleeding it resulting in the occasional small bubble but no real improvement. Left the brake tied back overnight etc. No improvement. Decided to bite the bullet and investigate a new pump so opened the r/h caliper nipple completely to start draining the sytem, after a couple of pumps with full flow through the drain tube, I felt the vibrations as a load of air came through! Tightened the nipple and wow! the brake was superb! topped up the reservoir and brake was good from then on. My conclusion is that my 'conventional' bleeding method of cracking open the nipple and then closing it again just did not move enough fluid to get the air out? may be worth a try FWIW

21-11-2019, 05:05 PM	#4
bigredduke Nothing to see here Join Date: May 2005 Location: brough Bike: M1100evo Posts: 1,546	The Evo has ABS, but I don't know if it's a similar system to the 821. You can get bleed kits (usually for cars admittedly but don't see why they wouldn't work) that use tyre pressure to push the new brake fluid through & remove the bubbles. https://www.halfords.com/workshop-to...nson-eezibleed The kits come with various caps for reservoirs but I don't know if one of them is compatible with bikes.

21-11-2019, 06:12 PM	#5
350TSS Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Shipbourne Bike: M900 Posts: 1,419	I have an eazibleed and I do not think the eazibleed caps fit a bike. I also have a Sealy bleeding tool which works off an airline - not to force fluid through but rather to create a vacuum and draw the air through the brake fluid - bit like a spray gun venturi effect - uses a lot of air and relies on the master cylinder reservoir being topped up regularly unlike the eazibleed. It is not good for a complete fluid change because the fluid hardly moves.

22-11-2019, 01:45 PM	#7
slob . Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: East London Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 9,710	Ducati recommend pushing the pistons back into the calipers before bleeding the master cylinders. From the 1200R manual: Bleeding of the ABS hydraulic system If brake controls feel "spongy" due to the presence of air bubbles in the system, bleed as usual, as described in sections "Changing the front brake system fluid" and "Changing the rear brake system fluid". Before bleeding a brake master cylinder, move back the caliper pistons as indicated in (Changing the fluid in the front brake system,Changing the fluid in the rear brake system) to let any air build-up in the ABS control unit flow into the master cylinder. Purge must be carried out by means of the corresponding unions (A) placed on the calipers and the brake master cylinders. Important Do not undo the special screws securing the pipe unions on the ABS hydraulic control unit, unless control unit replacement is necessary. Important If the ABS hydraulic control unit has been replaced, it will be supplied with the secondary circuit already filled with fluid. Control unit must thus be assembled and the system filled and drained as a traditional system. Which is way better than some systems, for instance recent fireblades need connecting to Honda diagnostics and then you spend a couple of hours running round the bike with the drain bottle and topping up reservoirs as the computer pumps fluid to various locations.

22-11-2019, 02:05 PM	#8
slob . Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: East London Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 9,710	BLEEDING THE REAR BRAKE SYSTEM Connect bleeding tool to left-hand front brake calliper bleed valve (3) or to rear brake bleed valve (8). Note Follow the manufacturer's instructions when using a commercial brake bleeding tool. Suck with the bleeding tool and open the bleed valve (3) making sure that the level of the concerned reservoir does not fall below the "MIN" mark. Continue this operation until all air is bled out of system. Tighten bleed valve (3) to a torque of 4Nm ± 10%. Warning Dispose of oil and/or filter cartridges in compliance with environmental protection regulations. Press pedal to make half stroke or until system is pressurised, open bleed valve and let pedal make full stroke; tighten bleed valve to the specified torque and release pedal. Important Do not release the brake pedal until the bleed valve has been fully tightened. Repeat the operation until the fluid inside system is free of air bubbles. Make sure that, with bleed valve duly closed, pressure is correctly developed through brake pedal. Tighten bleed valve (3) to a torque of 4Nm ± 10%, and fit protective cap. BLEEDING THE FRONT BRAKE SYSTEM Fill the reservoir (2) with the specified fluid taken from an intact container. Important During this operation, fluid level inside reservoir must remain above the MIN mark at all times. The end of the transparent plastic hose must remain immersed in the discharged fluid at all times. Operate brake lever or pedal and keep them operated during the whole filling operation. Connect bleeding tool to left-hand front brake calliper bleed valve (5). Note Follow the manufacturer's instructions when using a commercial clutch bleeding tool. Suck with the bleeding tool and open the bleed valve (5) making sure that the level of the concerned reservoir does not fall below the "MIN" mark. Continue this operation until all air is bled out of system. Tighten bleed valve (5) to a torque of 4Nm ± 10%. If you do not have a bleeding tool available, connect a transparent plastic tubing to the bleed valve (5) as outlined in the draining procedure. Operate the lever to make half stroke or until system is pressurised, open bleed valve and let lever make full stroke; tighten bleed valve to the specified torque and release lever. Important Do not release the brake lever until the bleed valve has been fully tightened. Repeat the bleeding operation until the fluid inside system is free of air bubbles; once filling is completed, proceed to bleeding by working on all system valves, one at a time. Then repeat bleeding procedure on right-hand front calliper valve (5). In particular, to completely eliminate any air possibly trapped at the highest point of the front brake master cylinder, perform the same procedure on the bleed valve (6), after having loosened nut (7) and connected bleeding tool to the transparent plastic tubing, as outlined in the draining procedure. Make sure that, with bleed valves duly closed, pressure is correctly developed through brake lever or pedal. Tighten bleed valves (5) and nut (7) to a torque of 4Nm ± 10%, and fit protective cap. Level fluid and refit cover (1) by tightening screws (3) on reservoir (2)

28-11-2019, 03:58 AM	#9
Maurizio245 Guest Posts: n/a	Thank you all for your advices. I'll give it all a try and take it from there. The pads have been on for a couple of months and I do around 55k a day on the bike on average. I was not told about any type of issues to the discs. Perhaps my local garage was too quick to dismiss the bike by just saying that the abs pump is faulty instead of bleeding the brakes properly. Cheers guys.

28-11-2019, 02:56 PM	#11
BobT Guest Posts: n/a	Having problems with the 821 rear brake. From new it needs bleeding all the time because it is non-existent at times. Had the bike in Moto Rapido who changed the rear caliper not so long ago. Not many miles done since but last weekend there was no rear brake at all. Just phoned Moto Rapido who are going to get back to me.

28-11-2019, 04:08 PM	#12
350TSS Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Shipbourne Bike: M900 Posts: 1,419	This is a non trivial problem - it cannot be dismissed as Italian "character" and looking on other forums it seems to be a fairly common occurrence not just on 821 but Multistrada and Hypermotards as well. If you involved in an accident and get hurt would the insurance pay out if it was found that the back brake was not working or would any potential compensation be reduced (contributory negligence)? what about if you injure someone else with your bike because you failed to stop? If you get stopped by the plod and they discover a non working brake - licence points/fine if you do not use the back brake much it may happen without your knowledge. This is surely a recall issue? How does an individual owner force a resolution of a "dangerous" defect through a recall? More questions than answers - does anybody know? (another one)