Swollen tank solutions?

[Zimbo]

Out of interest, what's the recommended "budget" solution these days for a slightly swollen S2R tank? Mine is a little swollen (starting to foul the ignition barrel and has deaminated the paint from the underside) but the frame rail rubbers still fit.
Is there a metal tank that's a straight fit (620?), do I dry the existing tank out and seal it (how long does it take to dry, how do I dry it, and what can I do to accelerate the drying process?) What do I use to seal it?
or is there another solution?

[Nickj]

A friend had the tank on his GasGas swell so much it was very tough to fit without a rubber hammer!
He tried something he found cited on a forum.... Very hot water with DEB Janitol plus added poured into the tank which did shrink it down for a while. pour in and wait for the tank to get to the desired size.
Just leaving the tank for a while dry in a warn and dry area would do the trick too but yiur still left with the fact it will recurr,
Long term the problem is that the insides of the tanks are very smooth so getting any coating that stops the ethanol getting into the plastic and getting said stuff to stick isn't easy. KTM tried this on one series of tank which resulted in the coating degrading and filling the fuel lines with sludge.
The other option is to get the ethanol out of the fuel, there are DIY kits for this but who wants many litres of fuel and buckets of highly flammable ethanol kicking around their garage or shed??

[Darkness]

I'm hoping that Esso Super Unleaded still doesn't have ethanol in it?

[bigredduke]

Originally Posted by Darkness

I'm hoping that Esso Super Unleaded still doesn't have ethanol in it?

From the ESSO website:

"The majority of unleaded 95 Octane petrol sold in the UK contains up to 5% ethanol as required under the Government’s Renewable Transport Fuels Obligation (RTFO).

There is currently no requirement for renewable fuel (such as ethanol) to be present in super unleaded (97 grade petrol).

Esso super unleaded petrol (Synergy Supreme+ Unleaded 97) is ethanol free (except in Devon, Cornwall, the Teesside area and Scotland). We would therefore advise anyone who has concerns about the presence of ethanol in petrol to use Synergy Supreme+ – providing they do not fill up in Devon or Cornwall, the Teesside area or Scotland."

https://www.esso.co.uk/fuels-faqs

Interestingly, I asked Shell & BP the same question this week and they would not confirm that ethanol was NOT present in their super-unleaded. They both claimed the situation was 'fluid' (as per their products) so could not confirm or deny the presence of ethanol.

From BP: However we can assure you that – as required by the The Motor Fuel (Composition and Content) (Amendment) Regulations 2013 – the content of bioethanol in our BP Ultimate Unleaded gasoline will never be more than 5% by volume until 1st January 2017 at the earliest. As we are past that date I would say it is safe to assume that a minimum of 5% ethanol is present in BP Ultimate .

From Shell: Ethanol is being blended in gasoline up to a maximum of 5% volume, in order to respond to the Government’s initiative to promote bio fuels, with the aim to reduce overall CO2 emissions and enhance energy supply security.
As with the standard grade, our premium fuel will also normally contain bio-components, as required by the government mandate. However, bio-components may sometimes not be present due to production and/or logistical constraints.
To further address your concern, we advise you to contact our product technical team. Their contact details are as follows:
E-mail : productinfo-UK@shell.com
Contact Number: 0800 731 8888 (Option 3). I intend to ring them after Easter, I will let you know their answer.

[Darkness]

Originally Posted by bigredduke

From the ESSO website:

Esso super unleaded petrol (Synergy Supreme+ Unleaded 97) is ethanol free (except in Devon, Cornwall, the Teesside area and Scotland). We would therefore advise anyone who has concerns about the presence of ethanol in petrol to use Synergy Supreme+ – providing they do not fill up in Devon or Cornwall, the Teesside area or Scotland."

From BP: ....the content of bioethanol in our BP Ultimate Unleaded gasoline will never be more than 5% by volume until 1st January 2017 at the earliest.[/I] As we are past that date I would say it is safe to assume that a minimum of 5% ethanol is present in BP Ultimate .

From Shell: ...As with the standard grade, our premium fuel will also normally contain bio-components, as required by the government mandate. However, bio-components may sometimes not be present due to production and/or logistical constraints.

I intend to ring them after Easter, I will let you know their answer.

Thanks BRD. How are you feeling now? Getting back to "Normal" (What's that?)?

Most of the web based chatter about ethanol was back in 2014, so may well be out of date now. Your summary was pretty much my understanding of the current position, though BP's reassurance is pretty hollow as they don't seem to know what they are selling now.

I have been told that all the petrol in Hampshire (Except Tesco) is "the same", it just comes out of Fawley in different branded tankers. It is operated by Esso though, so they may have access to "the good stuff"?

[bigredduke]

I have spoken to the technical bods at Shell this morning. They confirm that all their unleaded petrol contains up to 5% ethanol.

I also contacted Millers Oils asking if their EPS product would help with plastic tanks. Here is the (very rapid) response:

Good Morning Paul
Thanks for your enquiry.

Yes our EPS will help and contain the ethanol so that it will not attack the plastic fuel tank once it is attracted to moisture, this product has been on the marketplace for many years and therefore works.

Like you say Ethanol can be severely harmful to plastic fuel tanks and we actually took a call in technical from someone yesterday who’s tank had swelled due to not using a EPS product, and once this happens then you obviously need to replace the tank.
Kind Regards
Colin

He sent me a factsheet (pdf) but it is too big to upload. If anyone wants a copy PM me with your email address.

I have done a few searches online & the cheapest seems to be £7.99 for 250ml which will treat 40 litres of fuel.
If my sums are correct (doubtful) this would add £2 to each fill-up (I have assumed 10 ltrs per tankful).

I suppose if enough people are interested we could order in bulk to get the price down.

[Darren69]

Doesn't the Caswell sealant suit plastic tanks then? I was under the impression that it would cure the problem.

[Gerry]

My experience is that my tank expands up to one CM, I believe that it stops around there. This was measured with a bit of string from the back of the tank following the profile along the top to one of the catch mounting holes. This was compared to a new unused tank I have.

I made a new tank mounting bracket with longer slots so I could move the tank back a smidge.

Why not make up another bracket and see how far it expands.

I found that the tank did shrink back quite a bit when I stored it in the house one winter with the pump and cap removed.

[Darren69]

They do shrink back eventually, apparently. What that does to the paint finish is anybody's guess!

[Dirty]

Glad you are on the mend again BRD, even if it does mean rattling for a while

[uncle duke]

Great work BRD , i shall try EPS & see if its anygood.

[utopia]

What a truly bizarre situation this is.
Surely this would never be allowed to happen in the car world.
Its almost tempting to go to the bother of extracting the ethanol using water and a siphon tube, before using it in the bike.

I began using premium (low ethanol) fuel a couple of years ago.
Contrary to the findings of others, I actually found that both the monster and my thumper ran noticeably better on it.

[jerry]

Originally Posted by utopia

What a truly bizarre situation this is.
Surely this would never be allowed to happen in the car world.
Its almost tempting to go to the bother of extracting the ethanol using water and a siphon tube, before using it in the bike.

I began using premium (low ethanol) fuel a couple of years ago.
Contrary to the findings of others, I actually found that both the monster and my thumper ran noticeably better on it.

I can assure you that it does happen in both the car and truck world plastic tanks swell but because they are not visibly part of the cosmetics and rarely have to be opened its not the same problem but water in ethanol fuels diesel and petrol does cause issues in 4 wheeled world and the occaisional swollen tanks burst or split spilling fuel on the road bad if its diesel

[Luddite]

Originally Posted by utopia

Its almost tempting to go to the bother of extracting the ethanol using water and a siphon tube, before using it in the bike.

You've got a point there, Utopia, removing the ethanol yourself is an option. Indeed, there are kits on the market to enable us to do just that ("Ethanil" springs to mind).

One thing to watch out for if you do remove the ethanol is octane drop. Ethanol has a much higher octane rating than petrol, (I've read as high as 113), and it's used to boost the overall octane rating of the pump fuel. If you remove the ethanol, the octane rating of the petrol will drop. (I think the overall octane rating drops by about 1 point for each 2% ethanol removed.)

Most modern engines require a minimum 95 octane to run safely. Consequently, if you remove the ethanol from 97 octane super, it might be ok but, if you start with 95 octane, there could be pre-ignition problems after removing the ethanol and an octane booster might be needed to bring it back to 95.

If anyone's worried or just curious about the ethanol content in their fuel, it's a simple exercise to check it as per my earlier thread http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/s...ad.php?t=54542

[Dukedesmo]

'Tis indeed bad, luckily all my bikes have metal tanks (probably rust through instead now).

I use super unleaded in all of them; 916 because high-comp and was tuned specifically for it, Monster because it has high-comp pistons and so favours higher octanes (I know they can tend to pink on lower octane fuels) and the Guzzi because it also is fairly high-comp plus it was built in the '70s in the days of 5-star leaded fuel.

It costs a bit more but for my bikes I don't mind paying the extra and I don't do huge mileages either so really a great cost increase.