Monster 600 faulty CDI's - whats my options?

buzzer · 19-08-2018, 08:09 PM

recently bought a 1997 600 Monster as a winter project. Before I strip it down I thought I would get it running, which is proving difficult!

It starts, sounds OK, but runs quite rough... and soon as I try to rev it it cuts out! I have done all the usual checks and come to the conclusion that its the CDI units. I know its strange to have two faulty ones, but I dont know the history of the bike, and they may have both been swapped. the bike is stuck on full advance when I check it with the strobe, and seems to advance more as the revs rise...

So what are my options? seems new ones are £500 ish a pair... is there an alternative?

19-08-2018, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzer

recently bought a 1997 600 Monster as a winter project. Before I strip it down I thought I would get it running, which is proving difficult!

It starts, sounds OK, but runs quite rough... and soon as I try to rev it it cuts out! I have done all the usual checks and come to the conclusion that its the CDI units. I know its strange to have two faulty ones, but I dont know the history of the bike, and they may have both been swapped. the bike is stuck on full advance when I check it with the strobe, and seems to advance more as the revs rise...

So what are my options? seems new ones are £500 ish a pair... is there an alternative?

Damn, if it is your CDIs that bloody unlucky! I had similar symptoms but it turned out that my carbs were gunked up. A sonic clean and rejet to 147 on the mains sorted it right out.

Nickj · 20-08-2018, 08:00 AM

The units are pretty standard Japanese sourced parts by Kokusan Denki, they should be BB1105 units.
Choices are replace with the same, either new or used, there are always some on ebay.
You need to be careful not to get the BB1105A boxes that have different advance step points for high comp pistons.
These are also used on quite a few old jap bikes.
They are very old and clunky though.

Procom make a new replacement PE-C-MD900-A that is a lot cheaper new and uses slightly more modern electronics which may be your best bet. Bigger fatter spark and smoother advance stepping. Ebay has quite a few at around £100 from the US.

I think that there is a fully tune-able replacement but I can't remember who makes them, some of the racers will know who makes these.

A thought... IF it's on full advance at start up then tries to advance more then it would seem to be running. Is the basic set up of the pickups right and not set up to be slightly advanced??

buzzer · 20-08-2018, 02:16 PM

Thanks NickJ thats very useful I have a mate with a monster so I will put my CDI units on his bike and check its definitely them before I go too far...

I have looked at the pickups, but I cant see anyway someone could have put them on wrong... everything lines up OK, but willing to listen to advice if you have any suggestions, also happy to post any pictures if it helps. I must admit this has stumped me...

Dukedesmo · 20-08-2018, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nickj

I think that there is a fully tune-able replacement but I can't remember who makes them, some of the racers will know who makes these.

Ignitech; http://www.ignitech.cz/en/vyrobky/tcip/tcip.htm programmable via your PC for tuning etc. but can be used as straight replacement for CDI boxes, cheaper and probably more reliable.

Nasher · 20-08-2018, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dukedesmo

Ignitech; http://www.ignitech.cz/en/vyrobky/tcip/tcip.htm programmable via your PC for tuning etc. but can be used as straight replacement for CDI boxes, cheaper and probably more reliable.

They look like lots of fun.
Have you used them? Are they easy to set up via a laptop?

The Ducati 900SS instruction download appears easy enough and I'm assuming would be the same for an M900 etc.
http://www.ignitech.cz/en/vyrobky/tcip/tcip4%20manual

Will have to get my wiring diagram out later and see if the details make sense.

Nasher.

buzzer · 20-08-2018, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dukedesmo

Ignitech; http://www.ignitech.cz/en/vyrobky/tcip/tcip.htm programmable via your PC for tuning etc. but can be used as straight replacement for CDI boxes, cheaper and probably more reliable.

thanks guys. I emailed them and they came straight back with this.... looks to be cheaper than original and maybe the way to go. I will swap the CDI units to my mates bike and see if it has the same issue before spending too much cash!

We can offer you our ignition TCIP4 standard with connector adapter (plug and play connection to original connectors).
Our unit is replacement for both original units.
Unit will be preprogrammed for this bike.

unit TCIP4 standard 138 EUR
connector adapter 5 EUR
freightage DHL 25 EUR

Recommended accessories is USB/COM cable for communication with PC. This is 12 EUR.

Payment method is bank transfer or card payment or PayPal.
If you send us your address we will send you invoice. We will also need your phone number for DHL.

Nasher · 20-08-2018, 03:13 PM

Ah, this is too tempting, another way to simplify the old M900.

Must resist

Must resist

Dukedesmo · 20-08-2018, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nasher

They look like lots of fun.
Have you used them? Are they easy to set up via a laptop?

Yes, got one on my M900, plugs into the standard wiring and is the same for SS and Monster.

Software is very simple and you can run with standard Ducati timing parameters or custom settings, best to use it on a Dyno to get it optimised, I needed it as I wanted to alter timing due to various mods including high comp pistons.

I also fitted a TPS to the carbs so can have advance based on throttle position as well as RPM which made the bike much better to ride, plus you can alter the rev limiter, run a rev counter, electric fuel pump and shift light from it.

Costs less than one CDI unit yet replaces both and, best of all you get to fiddle with your Monster by laptop - what's not to like.

Nickj · 20-08-2018, 07:59 PM

HA !!
That was just the unit I was thinking of, just couldn't remember the name.
They dp come very well commended, looks well worth the money for what you are getting

Nasher · 20-08-2018, 10:05 PM

I'm not going to be able to resist one of these.

It seams like a no brainer.
Cheaper and more reliable than the standard boxes.
A simpler installation than two separate boxes.
Something to play with.
Could even sell the standard boxes on Ebay for more than one of these.

I might try one on the M900, which has a few engine mods like V2 heads etc, and if it goes well I'll get one for my dragging on 900SS project which has a big bore kit etc.

Will probably order one when I've slept on it I think.

Nasher

Dukedesmo · 21-08-2018, 10:17 AM

If you're modifying/tuning the 900 then I'd say it is definitely a no-brainer.

If you increase the CR then general consensus is to retard the ignition, now you can do this from the pickups but if you want to play with the settings whilst on the dyno (for example) then it's a bit of faff to keep taking the alternator cover off only to find out you've gone too far/not far enough - and you can't run it with the cover off.

With the Ignitech you can change ignition settings, advance etc. in seconds, even whilst it's running. You can even have switchable ignition maps by utilising an input to retard the settings.

And, as you say you could likely sell 2 CDIs for more than the cost of the Ignitech so unless striving for originality/concours then it really is a no-brainer IMO.

Nasher · 21-08-2018, 12:39 PM

Email sent with a request for an invoice!

buzzer · 24-08-2018, 11:55 AM

Thought I would update this with the reason the bike wouldn’t run… it may help others in the future..

I had initially bought the bike as a none runner… It looked like several people had had a go at repairing it, there were two invoiced in the documents, one for £200 where they failed to find the fault, and one for £350 from 2010 where they had replaced the ignition pickups but the invoice stated the bike needed new carbs. It has stood since 2010!

On initial investigation I found a hole in the pipe from the manifold to the fuel pump, (see the picture) and initially thought this was the reason it wouldn’t run. I repaired the pipe and although it now started, it wouldn’t rev at all. Soon as you gave it any throttle, it cut out completely.
It had a good spark so I initially thought it was the carbs, so I stripped and rebuilt them… still no joy… I used a spray with petrol in and sprayed neat petrol into the carbs… still cut out.

This is why I thought it was the CDI units. Today I put the strobe on and looked through the window… no timing marks. So I took the cover up and started it up (yes I got covered in oil!) and noticed that the timing on BOTH cylinders was way out. Knowing the pickups had been replaced, I wondered if they had connected the wires back to front. I took the wires out of the pickup plugs on the coils and swapped them over. It ran perfectly!

So it looks like the original fault may have been the pipe with a hole in it… but this was miss diagnosed to being the pickups. Which introduced a new fault on the bike when these were wired incorrectly!

Thank for your help and suggestions guys.

Mr Gazza · 24-08-2018, 12:08 PM

Nice work Buzzer.
Thanks for the follow up and conclusion... Some really good info on this thread..

19-08-2018, 08:09 PM	#1
buzzer Registered User Join Date: Jun 2018 Location: Wolverhampton Bike: M900 Posts: 392	Monster 600 faulty CDI's - whats my options? recently bought a 1997 600 Monster as a winter project. Before I strip it down I thought I would get it running, which is proving difficult! It starts, sounds OK, but runs quite rough... and soon as I try to rev it it cuts out! I have done all the usual checks and come to the conclusion that its the CDI units. I know its strange to have two faulty ones, but I dont know the history of the bike, and they may have both been swapped. the bike is stuck on full advance when I check it with the strobe, and seems to advance more as the revs rise... So what are my options? seems new ones are £500 ish a pair... is there an alternative?

20-08-2018, 08:00 AM	#3
Nickj Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Forest Of Dean Bike: S2r Posts: 3,189	The units are pretty standard Japanese sourced parts by Kokusan Denki, they should be BB1105 units. Choices are replace with the same, either new or used, there are always some on ebay. You need to be careful not to get the BB1105A boxes that have different advance step points for high comp pistons. These are also used on quite a few old jap bikes. They are very old and clunky though. Procom make a new replacement PE-C-MD900-A that is a lot cheaper new and uses slightly more modern electronics which may be your best bet. Bigger fatter spark and smoother advance stepping. Ebay has quite a few at around £100 from the US. I think that there is a fully tune-able replacement but I can't remember who makes them, some of the racers will know who makes these. A thought... IF it's on full advance at start up then tries to advance more then it would seem to be running. Is the basic set up of the pickups right and not set up to be slightly advanced?? __________________ "The final measure of any rider's skill is the inverse ratio of his preferred Traveling Speed to the number of bad scars on his body." Song of the sausage creature Last edited by Nickj; 20-08-2018 at 08:02 AM..

20-08-2018, 03:13 PM	#8
Nasher Registered User Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Portsmouth Bike: M900 Posts: 1,510	Ah, this is too tempting, another way to simplify the old M900. Must resist Must resist __________________ Heaven doesn't want me, and Hell is afraid I'll take over.

20-08-2018, 07:59 PM	#10
Nickj Too much time on my hands member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Forest Of Dean Bike: S2r Posts: 3,189	HA !! That was just the unit I was thinking of, just couldn't remember the name. They dp come very well commended, looks well worth the money for what you are getting __________________ "The final measure of any rider's skill is the inverse ratio of his preferred Traveling Speed to the number of bad scars on his body." Song of the sausage creature

20-08-2018, 10:05 PM	#11
Nasher Registered User Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Portsmouth Bike: M900 Posts: 1,510	I'm not going to be able to resist one of these. It seams like a no brainer. Cheaper and more reliable than the standard boxes. A simpler installation than two separate boxes. Something to play with. Could even sell the standard boxes on Ebay for more than one of these. I might try one on the M900, which has a few engine mods like V2 heads etc, and if it goes well I'll get one for my dragging on 900SS project which has a big bore kit etc. Will probably order one when I've slept on it I think. Nasher __________________ Heaven doesn't want me, and Hell is afraid I'll take over.

20-08-2018, 02:16 PM	#4
buzzer Registered User Join Date: Jun 2018 Location: Wolverhampton Bike: M900 Posts: 392	Thanks NickJ thats very useful I have a mate with a monster so I will put my CDI units on his bike and check its definitely them before I go too far... I have looked at the pickups, but I cant see anyway someone could have put them on wrong... everything lines up OK, but willing to listen to advice if you have any suggestions, also happy to post any pictures if it helps. I must admit this has stumped me...

21-08-2018, 10:17 AM	#12
Dukedesmo Registered User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Leics Bike: M900 Posts: 2,842	If you're modifying/tuning the 900 then I'd say it is definitely a no-brainer. If you increase the CR then general consensus is to retard the ignition, now you can do this from the pickups but if you want to play with the settings whilst on the dyno (for example) then it's a bit of faff to keep taking the alternator cover off only to find out you've gone too far/not far enough - and you can't run it with the cover off. With the Ignitech you can change ignition settings, advance etc. in seconds, even whilst it's running. You can even have switchable ignition maps by utilising an input to retard the settings. And, as you say you could likely sell 2 CDIs for more than the cost of the Ignitech so unless striving for originality/concours then it really is a no-brainer IMO. __________________ M900, 916, LeMans II.

21-08-2018, 12:39 PM	#13
Nasher Registered User Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Portsmouth Bike: M900 Posts: 1,510	Email sent with a request for an invoice! __________________ Heaven doesn't want me, and Hell is afraid I'll take over.

24-08-2018, 11:55 AM	#14
buzzer Registered User Join Date: Jun 2018 Location: Wolverhampton Bike: M900 Posts: 392	Thought I would update this with the reason the bike wouldn’t run… it may help others in the future.. I had initially bought the bike as a none runner… It looked like several people had had a go at repairing it, there were two invoiced in the documents, one for £200 where they failed to find the fault, and one for £350 from 2010 where they had replaced the ignition pickups but the invoice stated the bike needed new carbs. It has stood since 2010! On initial investigation I found a hole in the pipe from the manifold to the fuel pump, (see the picture) and initially thought this was the reason it wouldn’t run. I repaired the pipe and although it now started, it wouldn’t rev at all. Soon as you gave it any throttle, it cut out completely. It had a good spark so I initially thought it was the carbs, so I stripped and rebuilt them… still no joy… I used a spray with petrol in and sprayed neat petrol into the carbs… still cut out. This is why I thought it was the CDI units. Today I put the strobe on and looked through the window… no timing marks. So I took the cover up and started it up (yes I got covered in oil!) and noticed that the timing on BOTH cylinders was way out. Knowing the pickups had been replaced, I wondered if they had connected the wires back to front. I took the wires out of the pickup plugs on the coils and swapped them over. It ran perfectly! So it looks like the original fault may have been the pipe with a hole in it… but this was miss diagnosed to being the pickups. Which introduced a new fault on the bike when these were wired incorrectly! Thank for your help and suggestions guys.

24-08-2018, 12:08 PM	#15
Mr Gazza Lord of the Rings Join Date: May 2013 Location: Norwich Bike: M900sie Posts: 5,801	Nice work Buzzer. Thanks for the follow up and conclusion... Some really good info on this thread.. __________________