Clutch nut

Mr Gazza · 03-03-2018, 04:35 PM

Finally bit the bullet today and hauled my old clutch off the 900 after putting it off for about two years.
Needn't have worried about the clutch nut, as it came off with a couple of full pressure blasts from my rattle gun.

So, as to putting it back on. What is the general consensus on locktite versus lube?

The thread looks a little wet and oily, so I'm thinking it wasn't locktited before. That 186Nm torque should be enough without locktite, I would have thought?

My book doesn't seem to have the clutch torque values, so I was going to go with 30Nm and locktite for the 8 basket screws and 186 on the hub nut, if I can get it that tight!

I have considered using the rattle gun to whack it back up tight, but I have no idea what the torque would be.

Flip · 03-03-2018, 05:09 PM

I’m in the same boat- I bought a new clutch assembly last year but decided to wait until 30k miles before changing as the friction material was still within spec (plate to basket was way out of tolerances though but a gentle file kept it operating smoothly enough).

So my genuine manual says you’re right in the basket fixings at 30Nm and calls for Loctite 510.

The clutch drum nut is 145Nm with no mention of Loctite- doing things up with a rattle gun is never a good idea so I’d avoid it if possible.

Out of interest how many miles did you get out of it Mr G?

Mr Gazza · 03-03-2018, 05:38 PM

Mine's done about 33000 assuming that it's the first one. It's still operating absolutely fine, but the din is incredible!
Both drums are notched, the outer very much so, the friction plates are burred as can be! They grated all the way down the slots on the way out. But as I said, it worked fine.
I'd stick with old clutch 'till you can't bear the racket any more.

Had a brainwave and dug out my Haynes manual. So yes on the basket bolts.

But some contention with the hub nut. It gives 180-190Nm for SS and SL. 137-147Nm for Monsters.
Bearing in mind this is a book for the carbie models up to '96 and I have a 2000 900ie.
I have seen 186Nm elsewhere, so no idea what to plump for. Don't like the idea of locktite on that one.

Edit... More like 34K on the old clutch!

Dukedesmo · 03-03-2018, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flip

So my genuine manual says you’re right in the basket fixings at 30Nm and calls for Loctite 510.

Loctite 510 is a sealant rather than a locking compound, all those bolts won't be rattling loose so no locking required.

I use threebond because I've got it and also because it's (arguably) better stuff.

StevieL · 03-03-2018, 05:54 PM

Hi Gary, my Haines manual no. 3290 for two valve twins 1991 to 2005 gives the clutch centre nut torque for the 900's as 181.5 Nm for 98 to 01 and then 190 Nm for 2002 onwards, it does not mention Loctite for the nut.
Atb Steve.

StevieL · 03-03-2018, 06:56 PM

Edit to the above, the 181.5 Nm figure is for the 900 carby models with an M20x1.0 nut, the ie has an M25x1.5 nut and is torqued to 128Nm, apologies for the error good thing I double checked with the factory manual, good old Haines!

Mr Gazza · 03-03-2018, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dukedesmo

Loctite 510 is a sealant rather than a locking compound, all those bolts won't be rattling loose so no locking required.

I use threebond because I've got it and also because it's (arguably) better stuff.

Well the bolts had a silicone like stuff on them, when I took them out, and evidence that oil was trying to get down the threads. Presumably from the other side of the primary gear, although I thought the holes were blind?
Might have them out again tomorrow and swap the threadlock for a sealant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by StevieL

Edit to the above, the 181.5 Nm figure is for the 900 carby models with an M20x1.0 nut, the ie has an M25x1.5 nut and is torqued to 128Nm, apologies for the error good thing I double checked with the factory manual, good old Haines!

Well aint that just confusing?
My 2001 900ie factory manual gives the torque for a "wet clutch drum nut" with an M25x1 nut, as 186Nm with Shell retinax HDx2.
The mention of "Wet" made me mistrust this in the first place.

128Nm sounds low compared with all the other figures, but I can understand a finer thread needing less torque. I will measure the thread rate tomorrow too.

slob · 03-03-2018, 07:53 PM

1000DS (alloy basket) manual says 190Nm with moly disulphide grease for the centre
and 35Nm with loctite 510 for the drum. I’ve always just used the blue/medium stuff and never had an issue but obviously clean up the threads properly if you’re reusing old bolts.

Flip · 03-03-2018, 07:56 PM

At first thought I wasnt really sure why the figures would be so different over the years for essentially the same clutch arrangement but now knowing the thread pitch differs would explain it.

My 3290 Haynes manual covers model years ‘91-‘96 so not even late enough for my ‘97 but was all that was available when I bought my bike and still good for a pictorial reference in most cases but I go by the factory manual for specifics.

But the clutch torque figures in my Haynes are the same as the ones in the factory book for my 1997 bike which both appear to contradict Steve L’s findings for carb’d motors in his later edition Haynes.

If in doubt wait until Monday and give MotoRapido a quick call- they’ll be happy to tell you for definite I’m sure.

rollo22 · 03-03-2018, 08:04 PM

Gazza if you have some old plates you could knock up a clutch retaining tool so you can get the huge torque on the nut

Dukedesmo · 03-03-2018, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Gazza

I thought the holes were blind?

No the holes go right through and the backside of them (the gear) is in the oil. Only the big oil seal around the 'hub' stops it leaking into your clutch.

jerry · 03-03-2018, 09:05 PM

my old factory manuals used to say 117ft lbs , for the S4 but the clutch would become loose ,,later factory updates told me to go for 136 ft lbs and since then it never gets loose ,, and NO LOCTITE

Dukedesmo · 03-03-2018, 09:08 PM

M900 manual calls for 137.3 - 147.1 Nm but (later) 916 manual (with the exact same clutch assembly) calls for 180 - 190 Nm.

I think they increased the setting because there may have been problems loosening? (although this was mostly for the flywheel on the other side). Both have an M20 x 1mm thread.

I would (have and will) go with the higher setting.

Capo · 03-03-2018, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dukedesmo

No the holes go right through and the backside of them (the gear) is in the oil. Only the big oil seal around the 'hub' stops it leaking into your clutch.

They can be the source of oil leaks, JHP use silicon sealant on the threads.

Mr Gazza · 04-03-2018, 09:03 AM

Thank you so much for all the input. It's all very useful when you're on your tod in the workshop with just two contradicting books for reference.

Still a little bewildered as to what torque to use on the big nut, but it won't get racked up until my brother can get over with his giant torque wrench, so we can wrestle it on together... Might just give Moto Rapido a tinkle, as suggested. Maybe Carl Harrison too.

Rollo, I made a tool from the old plates before I took the nut off, but I might add some more plates and a mod to remove any chance of it slipping, before I re-tighten... It can live in the cupboard with all the other clutch tools I made for Brit twins!

Today's mission will be to venture out for essential provisions, like Moly grease and thread sealant... We've been cut off here since last Thursday!

Checked out the price of locktite 510, so it will definitely be silicone on the basket bolts. Cheers Capo.

Next fun task is to get the new hub together with the new rubbers.
The new ones are shorter and fatter than the originals, so if it puts up too much of a fight, the old ones will go back in!

Thanks for all your help guys.

03-03-2018, 04:35 PM	#1
Mr Gazza Lord of the Rings Join Date: May 2013 Location: Norwich Bike: M900sie Posts: 5,812	Clutch nut Finally bit the bullet today and hauled my old clutch off the 900 after putting it off for about two years. Needn't have worried about the clutch nut, as it came off with a couple of full pressure blasts from my rattle gun. So, as to putting it back on. What is the general consensus on locktite versus lube? The thread looks a little wet and oily, so I'm thinking it wasn't locktited before. That 186Nm torque should be enough without locktite, I would have thought? My book doesn't seem to have the clutch torque values, so I was going to go with 30Nm and locktite for the 8 basket screws and 186 on the hub nut, if I can get it that tight! I have considered using the rattle gun to whack it back up tight, but I have no idea what the torque would be. __________________

03-03-2018, 05:09 PM	#2
Flip Registered User Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Beachtown Bike: M900 Posts: 2,188	I’m in the same boat- I bought a new clutch assembly last year but decided to wait until 30k miles before changing as the friction material was still within spec (plate to basket was way out of tolerances though but a gentle file kept it operating smoothly enough). So my genuine manual says you’re right in the basket fixings at 30Nm and calls for Loctite 510. The clutch drum nut is 145Nm with no mention of Loctite- doing things up with a rattle gun is never a good idea so I’d avoid it if possible. Out of interest how many miles did you get out of it Mr G? __________________ You're perfect, yes, it's true- But without me you're only you!

03-03-2018, 05:38 PM	#3
Mr Gazza Lord of the Rings Join Date: May 2013 Location: Norwich Bike: M900sie Posts: 5,812	Mine's done about 33000 assuming that it's the first one. It's still operating absolutely fine, but the din is incredible! Both drums are notched, the outer very much so, the friction plates are burred as can be! They grated all the way down the slots on the way out. But as I said, it worked fine. I'd stick with old clutch 'till you can't bear the racket any more. Had a brainwave and dug out my Haynes manual. So yes on the basket bolts. But some contention with the hub nut. It gives 180-190Nm for SS and SL. 137-147Nm for Monsters. Bearing in mind this is a book for the carbie models up to '96 and I have a 2000 900ie. I have seen 186Nm elsewhere, so no idea what to plump for. Don't like the idea of locktite on that one. Edit... More like 34K on the old clutch! __________________ Last edited by Mr Gazza; 03-03-2018 at 06:59 PM..

03-03-2018, 07:53 PM	#8
slob . Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: East London Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 9,712	1000DS (alloy basket) manual says 190Nm with moly disulphide grease for the centre and 35Nm with loctite 510 for the drum. I’ve always just used the blue/medium stuff and never had an issue but obviously clean up the threads properly if you’re reusing old bolts. Last edited by slob; 03-03-2018 at 07:57 PM..

03-03-2018, 07:56 PM	#9
Flip Registered User Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Beachtown Bike: M900 Posts: 2,188	At first thought I wasnt really sure why the figures would be so different over the years for essentially the same clutch arrangement but now knowing the thread pitch differs would explain it. My 3290 Haynes manual covers model years ‘91-‘96 so not even late enough for my ‘97 but was all that was available when I bought my bike and still good for a pictorial reference in most cases but I go by the factory manual for specifics. But the clutch torque figures in my Haynes are the same as the ones in the factory book for my 1997 bike which both appear to contradict Steve L’s findings for carb’d motors in his later edition Haynes. If in doubt wait until Monday and give MotoRapido a quick call- they’ll be happy to tell you for definite I’m sure. __________________ You're perfect, yes, it's true- But without me you're only you!

03-03-2018, 05:54 PM	#5
StevieL Registered User Join Date: May 2013 Location: Cromer Bike: M900ie Posts: 127	Hi Gary, my Haines manual no. 3290 for two valve twins 1991 to 2005 gives the clutch centre nut torque for the 900's as 181.5 Nm for 98 to 01 and then 190 Nm for 2002 onwards, it does not mention Loctite for the nut. Atb Steve.

03-03-2018, 06:56 PM	#6
StevieL Registered User Join Date: May 2013 Location: Cromer Bike: M900ie Posts: 127	Edit to the above, the 181.5 Nm figure is for the 900 carby models with an M20x1.0 nut, the ie has an M25x1.5 nut and is torqued to 128Nm, apologies for the error good thing I double checked with the factory manual, good old Haines!

03-03-2018, 08:04 PM	#10
rollo22 Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Moreton-in-Marsh Bike: M1100evo Posts: 1,082	Gazza if you have some old plates you could knock up a clutch retaining tool so you can get the huge torque on the nut __________________ IF ALL ELSE FAILS READ THE INSTRUCTIONS Last edited by rollo22; 03-03-2018 at 08:46 PM..

03-03-2018, 09:05 PM	#12
jerry Old Git Join Date: May 2006 Location: Cricklade Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 2,822	my old factory manuals used to say 117ft lbs , for the S4 but the clutch would become loose ,,later factory updates told me to go for 136 ft lbs and since then it never gets loose ,, and NO LOCTITE __________________ MONSTERMAN

03-03-2018, 09:08 PM	#13
Dukedesmo Registered User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Leics Bike: M900 Posts: 2,844	M900 manual calls for 137.3 - 147.1 Nm but (later) 916 manual (with the exact same clutch assembly) calls for 180 - 190 Nm. I think they increased the setting because there may have been problems loosening? (although this was mostly for the flywheel on the other side). Both have an M20 x 1mm thread. I would (have and will) go with the higher setting. __________________ M900, 916, LeMans II.

04-03-2018, 09:03 AM	#15
Mr Gazza Lord of the Rings Join Date: May 2013 Location: Norwich Bike: M900sie Posts: 5,812	Thank you so much for all the input. It's all very useful when you're on your tod in the workshop with just two contradicting books for reference. Still a little bewildered as to what torque to use on the big nut, but it won't get racked up until my brother can get over with his giant torque wrench, so we can wrestle it on together... Might just give Moto Rapido a tinkle, as suggested. Maybe Carl Harrison too. Rollo, I made a tool from the old plates before I took the nut off, but I might add some more plates and a mod to remove any chance of it slipping, before I re-tighten... It can live in the cupboard with all the other clutch tools I made for Brit twins! Today's mission will be to venture out for essential provisions, like Moly grease and thread sealant... We've been cut off here since last Thursday! Checked out the price of locktite 510, so it will definitely be silicone on the basket bolts. Cheers Capo. Next fun task is to get the new hub together with the new rubbers. The new ones are shorter and fatter than the originals, so if it puts up too much of a fight, the old ones will go back in! Thanks for all your help guys. __________________