Grab some biscuits and brew, this is a long read.

[jerry]

Im waiting for a fuel cell bike,, cleaner than Battery , easy to fuel in 5 mins ,,, Battery electric technology is a BLIND SIDED DEAD END ,,,like steam cars ,, coal gas cars etc

[Mr Gazza]

News just in from our Petro-Chemical Industry correspondent...

Originally Posted by jerry

,,, Battery electric technology is a BLIND SIDED DEAD END ,,,

....And back to the studio.

[Luddite]

"Here comes the science bit!" (© Loreal)

Originally Posted by jerry

...cleaner than Battery...

Not strictly true, (at the moment anyway), because it takes energy to create the hydrogen, then more energy to store it and then more energy is lost converting the hydrogen back to electricity in the fuel cell itself.

According to Life cycle assessment of Polymer Electrolyte Membrane Fuel Cell applications* this makes battery vehicles over twice as efficient as fuel cell versions.

Quote: "Electrolysis of water and backwards transformation with the ... Fuel Cell to electricity consumes 2.4 times more energy than propelling the Battery Electric Vehicle directly."

*https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/geta...pdf/C5EE01082A

[350TSS]

The problem with batteries is the raw materials here is Wikipedia on Lithium
Production

Reserves
Worldwide identified reserves in 2017, 2018, 2019 and 2020 were estimated by the US Geological Survey (USGS) to be 14 million, 16 million, 14 million and 17 million tonnes, respectively.[56] An accurate estimate of world lithium reserves is difficult.[93][94] One reason for this is that most lithium classification schemes are developed for solid ore deposits, whereas brine is a fluid that is problematic to treat with the same classification scheme due to varying concentrations and pumping effects.[95]


The world in 2013 was estimated to contain about 15 million tonnes of lithium reserves, while 65 million tonnes of known resources were reasonable. A total of 75% of everything could typically be found in the ten largest deposits of the world.[96] Another study noted that 83% of the geological resources of lithium are located in six brine, two pegmatite, and two sedimentary deposits.[97]

The world's top lithium-producing countries from 2019, as reported by the US Geological Survey are Australia, Chile, China and Argentina.[56] The intersection of Chile, Bolivia, and Argentina make up the region known as the Lithium Triangle. The Lithium Triangle is known for its high quality salt flats including Bolivia's Salar de Uyuni, Chile's Salar de Atacama, and Argentina's Salar de Arizaro. The Lithium Triangle is believed to contain over 75% of existing known lithium reserves.[98] Deposits are found in South America throughout the Andes mountain chain. Chile is the leading producer, followed by Argentina. Both countries recover lithium from brine pools. Half the world's known reserves are located in Bolivia along the central eastern slope of the Andes. In 2009, Bolivia negotiated with Japanese, French, and Korean firms to begin extraction.[99]


In the US, lithium is recovered from brine pools in Nevada.[15] A deposit discovered in 2013 in Wyoming's Rock Springs Uplift is estimated to contain 228,000 tons.

Over the years opinions have been differing about potential growth. A 2008 study concluded that "realistically achievable lithium carbonate production would be sufficient for only a small fraction of future PHEV and EV global market requirements", that "demand from the portable electronics sector will absorb much of the planned production increases in the next decade", and that "mass production of lithium carbonate is not environmentally sound, it will cause irreparable ecological damage to ecosystems that should be protected and that LiIon propulsion is incompatible with the notion of the 'Green Car'".[57]

According to a later 2011 study by Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory and the University of California, Berkeley, the then estimated reserve base of lithium should not be a limiting factor for large-scale battery production for electric vehicles because an estimated 1 billion 40 kWh Li-based batteries could be built with those reserves[103] - about 10 kg of lithium per car.[104] Another 2011 study at the University of Michigan and Ford Motor Company found enough resources to support global demand until 2100, including the lithium required for the potential widespread transportation use. The study estimated global reserves at 39 million tons, and total demand for lithium during the 90-year period annualized at 12–20 million tons, depending on the scenarios regarding economic growth and recycling rates.[105]

In 2014, The Financialist stated that demand for lithium was growing at more than 12% a year. According to Credit Suisse, this rate exceeded projected availability by 25%. The publication compared the 2014 lithium situation with oil, whereby "higher oil prices spurred investment in expensive deepwater and oil sands production techniques";

[Darren69]

Interesting, so it sounds like we'll be running out of raw material to make enough Li batteries for electric vehicles before too long then? And the damage to the enviironment to recover the materials will be pretty severe, so there goes the green vehicles argument, not forgetting the generation of the electricity to power them most likely a lot of which will come from burning fossil fuels. I can see why Gerry says it's a dead end, it wouldn't appear to be the long term solution.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Darkness

You would expect something rather special for £17,490 on the road!

And that's the probem for me. I do so few miles in a car and on a bike that electric would be brilliant for both, but I simply cannot afford to buy anything that I'd actually be interested in driving\riding, and believe me I've looked.

[jerry]

Friend of mine a fellow Biker has just retired from 40 years at National grid ,, he was one of their top boffins , and he thinks battery vehicles are a dead end due to power supply problems and the technology and that Fuel cells will be a better solution from resources and performance but that solar, and wind suprplus power will make converting hydrogen very cheap and efficient.. That his opinion

[Uncle Bob]

LOL not in our lifetime!

[walkingpictures]

Originally Posted by Jez900ie

2. Go and quieten down your Monster pipes!

Wonder if that was said tongue in cheek hey Jez?

Anyways,good write up Gary,and yes one day it will probably all be electric bikes but after seeing them race in the Isle of Man they just don't do it for me.I know I am an old Luddite but I am definitely a petrol head.I have a noisy Monster and also a gas guzzling V8 BMW,but I reckon it will take quite some years to get the charging infrastructure in place to support the electric revolution in vehicles.

I think hydrogen would be a good option for cars if they can develop the technology but can't see it working on bikes.

Good to see some great friendly debate on here,thanks for the thread Gary

Kimbo

[Jez900ie]

Originally Posted by Mr Gazza

The only noise is just a muted whine of varying pitch which is drowned by the wind noise at above 55ish mph. I must say I find this very refreshing, even if I have to confess to an open dry clutch and cored cans. I think it’s a rather selfish notion that it sounds good. I certainly don’t think it’s big and clever when Jack the kipper goes wailing down the main road with the crescendo piercing my own garden over a mile away. The mirror is not always kind!

Hi Kimbo, I haven't heard Mr Gazzas pipes personally but based on someone who has ^^^ LOL.

[Darren69]

...and they're currently about 10k overpriced too! That will no doubt change eventually though unless people realize that producing lithium batteries in the volume required will hurt the environment far more than fossil fuels and that recycling the old vehicle batteries will also be a problem and a big cost for the consumer as every few years you will need a complete new engine effectively for your electric vehicles.

[Nickj]

It seems the biggest users of used car type battery cells are power storage farms. The batteries might not be quite snappy enough for using to push a car along but as a cheap passive storage unit they are quite adequate especially when you link a few thousand together.

[Dirty]

I spoke to a chap a while back who worked in the renewable energy business. The UK is sometimes powered nearly 100% by renewables and it could get better. Watt wind and waves don't understand is peak demand times and they are often able to produce huge kWh's in the middle of the night. If everyone had electric vehicles plugged in they would act as a storage bank for what is currently wasted energy

[slob]

[Darkness]

Originally Posted by slob

Quite rapid vehicles with a few mod’s.

https://youtu.be/1BmX4ip0808