S4 '02 Foggy starting issue.

Darren69 · 10-06-2018, 01:49 PM

I suspect a dead battery as I was getting an indication on my optimate, but now after the weekend on charge the optimate says its good. All I get when pressing the start button is a series of rapid clicks and flashing engine warning light. It doesn't even turn over. Is it just a dead battery or someting else? Bike was turning over fine and starting a few months ago.

Flip · 10-06-2018, 04:36 PM

Solenoid (starter relay) would be my guess. After that I would be looking at all the ground connections- I replaced all my leads a while back and it’s never started so easily in its life!!

Darren69 · 11-06-2018, 09:23 AM

Yes, Maybe if the relay has got stuck somehow it is just continually activating, not sure why the engine management light flashes too but I will look into further in the next few days.

12-06-2018, 07:31 AM

I'd suspect battery Daz. Optimate can only check voltage, so unless a cell has dropped it'll tell you there's 12V and all is well. If there's no juice in it, the moment the starter hooks up and puts a heavy draw in the system, the whole lot just falls out.

Martin Duke · 12-06-2018, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darren69

I suspect a dead battery as I was getting an indication on my optimate, but now after the weekend on charge the optimate says its good. All I get when pressing the start button is a series of rapid clicks and flashing engine warning light. It doesn't even turn over. Is it just a dead battery or someting else? Bike was turning over fine and starting a few months ago.

I had a starting issue (it wouldn't!) with my Multistrada recently, previous owner had fitted heavy duty leads etc, so I suspected the battery which I swopped from another bike. Exactly the same result! So, both batteries are known good - I used one of my car jump leads to connect the battery negative directly to a bolt next to the starter motor. Instant start, proving that the place to investigate was the ground connection point on the crankcase, sure enough just a slight bit of corrosion between the crimp terminals and the case, easily cleaned off with a small brass wire brush. I fitted a new star washer and put a smear of vaseline over everything once tightened up.

Martin

Darren69 · 12-06-2018, 02:01 PM

Thanks guys, I'll go through the connections for the starter but I think I'm gonna try the battery next, its actually cheaper than a starter relay.

Flip · 12-06-2018, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darren69

Thanks guys, I'll go through the connections for the starter but I think I'm gonna try the battery next, its actually cheaper than a starter relay.

Are you sure?
A starter relay is about £35.00 from Moto Rapido

Sorry I presumed you had already established the battery was definitely okay.

Well that is obviously your first place to look but then have a little look at the battery ground lead where it attaches to the frame and then go on from there.

As I said, I replaced all the ground leads on my bike a couple of years ago- they are marginal at best and with only crimped terminals very open to oxidisation causing resistance and that horrible chugga chugga chugga before firing up.

New, soldered and weather sealed leads (along with new vacuum fuel pump and tap internals) now mean it fires up instantly.

Dukedesmo · 12-06-2018, 03:25 PM

Recently had similar on my Son's car battery. Shows 12+ volts but wouldn't turn the engine over just the 'click, click, click' of the instrument lights etc. as it flashed on/off. Obviously measures well below 12v during that but otherwise still shows 12v straight afterwards, 5 minutes on a charger even showed it as fully charged but no improvement.

No warning either, one day good the next finished, fitted a (nearly) new battery and as good as gold.

Darren69 · 13-06-2018, 08:55 AM

As Neil said it's only proven to have 12v but it might not have enough power. I looked on Stein Dinse and they want 75.20 euro for a new starter relay! They're about 35-40 euro s/hand on ebay.

Dukedesmo · 13-06-2018, 09:37 AM

Have you tried 'jumping' the starter solenoid, i.e. with a screwdriver blade, jump lead etc. to see if it starts OK directly from the battery?

If that's OK then I would connect a (known good) car battery via jump leads to confirm if a battery problem.

Darren69 · 13-06-2018, 01:21 PM

Was going to try that last night but couldn't actually see the solenoid, I thought it was under the battery but couldn't see very clearly where the wires went. Have found out now after consulting the workshop manual it was hiding behind the air scoop, so will need to remove this.

23-06-2018, 05:09 AM

I'm interested in how you make out with your starting issue. I'm having issues with my Foggy too that just come about last month. My R/R went bad and killed my battery and while the battery was probably ok I replaced it for peace of mind. I replaced the R/R with a MOSFET unit and got the kit at roadstercycles over here in the US, that install went well and the charging system tested good.

This week out on the road and for the first time it stalled three times at idle while at red lights, it started right back up every time and I made it home. Unlike the R/R failure I was 100 miles from home and had to have it towed back.

I also picked up a Motoelectric starter circuit upgrade kit which I haven't installed yet and not related to the stalling issue I'm sure but something I wanted to do.

I'm thinking the stalling issue could be a TPS/Throttle body sync issue as well as a low idle at 900 RPMs I have to pursue that idea further.

Any theories on the stall issue are welcome of course

alan s4 · 23-06-2018, 07:14 AM

A quick fix may be to increase your idle RPM, 900 sounds low, I've increased mine recently to around 1100 and the bike is much happier at idle now.

Darren69 · 23-06-2018, 07:16 AM

THe stalling issue is most likely to be TPS or throttle bodies out of sync and the tickover is set too low at 900RPM, I would say 1000-1200RPM would be better. I can't remember off hand what the factory recommend for tickover but that would be my guess. I will check the workshop manual and see. I haven't investigated the starting issue yet but will post up when I do. My guess is it's just the battery as its a few years old. My reg/rec is original but I relocated it to keep it cooler which helps with reliability. And check the two plugs are in good order and clean. TPO used to do a kit for the reg/rec but I think they ceased trading now.

23-06-2018, 07:59 AM

Thanks guys, I've been thinking 1200 RPM for the idle, 900 is definitely too low and from what I've read it seems to be 1100 to 1200 RPM for best results. Ithas new plugs, belts, fuel filter and the battery wasn't that old but the R/R issue just made it unreliable.

I'll be looking at the TPS/ throttle bodies/ idle this up coming week.

Darren where did you relocate your R/R to?

10-06-2018, 01:49 PM	#1
Darren69 Transmaniacon MOC Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Sutton In Ashfield Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 6,022	S4 '02 Foggy starting issue. I suspect a dead battery as I was getting an indication on my optimate, but now after the weekend on charge the optimate says its good. All I get when pressing the start button is a series of rapid clicks and flashing engine warning light. It doesn't even turn over. Is it just a dead battery or someting else? Bike was turning over fine and starting a few months ago. __________________ Roast Beef Monster! Termignoni and Bucci - Italian for pipe and slippers! S4 Fogarty, S4R 07T, 748, Series 1 Mirage

10-06-2018, 04:36 PM	#2
Flip Registered User Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Beachtown Bike: M900 Posts: 2,188	Solenoid (starter relay) would be my guess. After that I would be looking at all the ground connections- I replaced all my leads a while back and it’s never started so easily in its life!! __________________ You're perfect, yes, it's true- But without me you're only you!

11-06-2018, 09:23 AM	#3
Darren69 Transmaniacon MOC Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Sutton In Ashfield Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 6,022	Yes, Maybe if the relay has got stuck somehow it is just continually activating, not sure why the engine management light flashes too but I will look into further in the next few days. __________________ Roast Beef Monster! Termignoni and Bucci - Italian for pipe and slippers! S4 Fogarty, S4R 07T, 748, Series 1 Mirage

12-06-2018, 02:01 PM	#6
Darren69 Transmaniacon MOC Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Sutton In Ashfield Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 6,022	Thanks guys, I'll go through the connections for the starter but I think I'm gonna try the battery next, its actually cheaper than a starter relay. __________________ Roast Beef Monster! Termignoni and Bucci - Italian for pipe and slippers! S4 Fogarty, S4R 07T, 748, Series 1 Mirage

12-06-2018, 03:25 PM	#8
Dukedesmo Registered User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Leics Bike: M900 Posts: 2,842	Recently had similar on my Son's car battery. Shows 12+ volts but wouldn't turn the engine over just the 'click, click, click' of the instrument lights etc. as it flashed on/off. Obviously measures well below 12v during that but otherwise still shows 12v straight afterwards, 5 minutes on a charger even showed it as fully charged but no improvement. No warning either, one day good the next finished, fitted a (nearly) new battery and as good as gold. __________________ M900, 916, LeMans II.

12-06-2018, 07:31 AM	#4
nelly Guest Posts: n/a	I'd suspect battery Daz. Optimate can only check voltage, so unless a cell has dropped it'll tell you there's 12V and all is well. If there's no juice in it, the moment the starter hooks up and puts a heavy draw in the system, the whole lot just falls out.

13-06-2018, 08:55 AM	#9
Darren69 Transmaniacon MOC Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Sutton In Ashfield Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 6,022	As Neil said it's only proven to have 12v but it might not have enough power. I looked on Stein Dinse and they want 75.20 euro for a new starter relay! They're about 35-40 euro s/hand on ebay. __________________ Roast Beef Monster! Termignoni and Bucci - Italian for pipe and slippers! S4 Fogarty, S4R 07T, 748, Series 1 Mirage

13-06-2018, 09:37 AM	#10
Dukedesmo Registered User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Leics Bike: M900 Posts: 2,842	Have you tried 'jumping' the starter solenoid, i.e. with a screwdriver blade, jump lead etc. to see if it starts OK directly from the battery? If that's OK then I would connect a (known good) car battery via jump leads to confirm if a battery problem. __________________ M900, 916, LeMans II.

13-06-2018, 01:21 PM	#11
Darren69 Transmaniacon MOC Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Sutton In Ashfield Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 6,022	Was going to try that last night but couldn't actually see the solenoid, I thought it was under the battery but couldn't see very clearly where the wires went. Have found out now after consulting the workshop manual it was hiding behind the air scoop, so will need to remove this. __________________ Roast Beef Monster! Termignoni and Bucci - Italian for pipe and slippers! S4 Fogarty, S4R 07T, 748, Series 1 Mirage

23-06-2018, 05:09 AM	#12
dk1six Guest Posts: n/a	I'm interested in how you make out with your starting issue. I'm having issues with my Foggy too that just come about last month. My R/R went bad and killed my battery and while the battery was probably ok I replaced it for peace of mind. I replaced the R/R with a MOSFET unit and got the kit at roadstercycles over here in the US, that install went well and the charging system tested good. This week out on the road and for the first time it stalled three times at idle while at red lights, it started right back up every time and I made it home. Unlike the R/R failure I was 100 miles from home and had to have it towed back. I also picked up a Motoelectric starter circuit upgrade kit which I haven't installed yet and not related to the stalling issue I'm sure but something I wanted to do. I'm thinking the stalling issue could be a TPS/Throttle body sync issue as well as a low idle at 900 RPMs I have to pursue that idea further. Any theories on the stall issue are welcome of course

23-06-2018, 07:14 AM	#13
alan s4 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Glasgow Bike: S4 challenge Posts: 447	A quick fix may be to increase your idle RPM, 900 sounds low, I've increased mine recently to around 1100 and the bike is much happier at idle now.

23-06-2018, 07:16 AM	#14
Darren69 Transmaniacon MOC Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Sutton In Ashfield Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 6,022	THe stalling issue is most likely to be TPS or throttle bodies out of sync and the tickover is set too low at 900RPM, I would say 1000-1200RPM would be better. I can't remember off hand what the factory recommend for tickover but that would be my guess. I will check the workshop manual and see. I haven't investigated the starting issue yet but will post up when I do. My guess is it's just the battery as its a few years old. My reg/rec is original but I relocated it to keep it cooler which helps with reliability. And check the two plugs are in good order and clean. TPO used to do a kit for the reg/rec but I think they ceased trading now. __________________ Roast Beef Monster! Termignoni and Bucci - Italian for pipe and slippers! S4 Fogarty, S4R 07T, 748, Series 1 Mirage

23-06-2018, 07:59 AM	#15
dk1six Guest Posts: n/a	Thanks guys, I've been thinking 1200 RPM for the idle, 900 is definitely too low and from what I've read it seems to be 1100 to 1200 RPM for best results. Ithas new plugs, belts, fuel filter and the battery wasn't that old but the R/R issue just made it unreliable. I'll be looking at the TPS/ throttle bodies/ idle this up coming week. Darren where did you relocate your R/R to?