Stronger sidestand spring ?

[utopia]

Yesterday I was on my way up to Manchester.
Fellow tea drinkers will probably recognise the scenario .. I was busting for a pee as I approached a built up area and things were getting a bit desperate by the time I emerged back into open countryside and found a suitable quiet spot to stop.
I hurriedly kicked the sidestand out and hopped off, but it hadn't quite gone past the "zenith" (?) and the bike toppled over.
No particular damage was done beyond a scraped bar-end mirror but it got me thinking that I might like to avoid similar events in the future by fitting a stronger sidestand spring.
I doubt very much if anyone else has tried this but hope springs eternal (pun ?) so I thought it worth asking anyway ?
Anyone know of a suitable spring mod ....?
The bike in question is an M750 and it has the steel sidestand with the double spring behind it, rather than in front.

Why bother Jeff, when you are not going to make that mistake again.

[utopia]

Well yes, but I was already aware of the situation beforehand.
I always use a tap of the toe to double check that the stand is fully "home" before I let the bike rest on it anyway.
At least, "always" unless circumstances dictate haste, as in this case.
Forewarned is fore-armed, and I now see the desireabilty of making things a bit more failsafe.
This bike does everything I ever need and will be my main ride (only ride, even) for the duration.
Therefore I'd like to fine tune it wherever possible.
And anyway, my bladder is fine now but it isn't going to get anything but worse as the years trundle by, is it ?
And I am a tea addict.

I'm leaving an open goal there for a certain kind of joke response, I guess.
But those pads can chafe something wicked on a hot day, eh ?

[Darren69]

Maybe fit a catheter? You can go on the go!

[Nickj]

Its more a case of it flipping over centre to it's safe standing up position than the springs themselves.
Wouldn't a stronger spring just make it more likely not to move to this position??

[Darkness]

Originally Posted by Nickj

Its more a case of it flipping over centre to it's safe standing up position than the springs themselves.
Wouldn't a stronger spring just make it more likely not to move to this position??

A relocated top mount for the springs may make the action more positive without being heavier?

[utopia]

Yes, I do think its about more than just a stronger spring, but I was kinda hoping that it might offer a quick fix in a half hearted way.
I've never consciously thought about it before but I now realise that I am subconsciously very familiar with the sidestand's lack of positivity.
The one on my Dommie is a million miles more positive and it snaps past the over-centre point with gusto.
The one on the monster, on the other hand, needs to be pushed all the way to the stop (although the spring offers assistance past the over-centre point).
Its all clean and well lubed, though I did give it a squirt of GT85 when I tested it earlier today .. with no discernible improvement.
The position of the spring anchor is clearly crucial.
My stand has the curved bit of steel plate linking the spring to the anchor. The curve has no effect and appears to merely be a leftover from the earlier "suicide" self-retracting stand .. which is even worse.
I strongly suspect that the current design, and particularly the spring location, is compromised by merely being a mod of the previous design.

[Dirty]

Is the Monster stand strong enough to handle a stiffer spring?

[utopia]

Ha ... Yes it is, but I assume you're only jokingly asking the question anyway.

Moving along .. I now have a possible solution .. and its so simple and obvious that you wouldn't believe it.
The spring on my stand connects to the anchor point on the sidestand bracket via a short metal link plate.
As I said before, this plate is curved, but I believe this is only a hangover from the earlier "suicide" self-retracting stand, where (I think) the curved plate is designed to catch on a projection from the pivot bolt, to provide the self-retracting function.
On my stand, this curved plate catches on nothing .. it could just as easily be a straight link.
But here's the thing ... it would be a simple matter to make a shorter link, thus putting more tension in the std spring/s.
Its obvious, but I hadn't really thought about it much yet and just started a thread on the subject to see what cropped up.
I have Capo to thank for pointing out the obvious solution.
So, I'm gonna make myself a shorter link .. probably just a straight one and in stainless.
Then we shall see if more spring force does improve the situation or not.
I'm not entirely convinced that it will .. it may be necessary to reposition the spring location point (as has been suggested) to get it to work properly, but the new link plate is such a simple thing to make and install that its got to be worth trying as a first attempt.

This is the great value of a forum such as ours.
You can put out some half thought out musings, without fear of being ridiculed, and get back some workable answers.
I thank you all.

And naturally, if it works, I'll post up the relevant dimensions for copying and/or make a few extra myself and pass them around.

[utopia]

Right, well on proper, close inspection, a stronger spring force, by whatever means, is going to make bugger all difference.
The problem is clearly that the stand barely goes over-centre at all.
The spring anchor points and the pivot point are all virtually in line when the stand is down.

I did try fitting an ally S4R stand that I had but although it did go further over-centre, there were other issues which needed attention.

Moving either of the spring anchors remains a possibility but the upper one is tricky and the lower one is probably a cut and weld job.
I'm currently toying with the notion of grinding a little off the limit stop on the stand to allow it to move a bit further over-centre.
Trouble is, the stand has been modded with a 30mm ally clubfoot to suit my raised monster, and I don't want to risk wrecking it.

This one may have to go back on the backburner for a while.
But anyway, the shortened link-plate idea is a non-starter.

Some pics might make this thread less boring, eh ?

[Mr Gazza]

It's not boring, and I've been following it with interest and some frustration!

I had a good look at mine (Y2K like yours) last night and came to the same conclusion as you regarding the spring strength.
I reckon the strange vaguely curved link is a way of utilising an abundant stock spring and making up it's length?... The link itself probably being left over from a "suicide" stand as you mentioned.

My stand is reasonably positive, but I am super paranoid about it and I'm only happy to leave the bike if it is on hard level ground or with the front wheel upwards of any slope, having given the leg a good forward push to guarantee location.
We can have a good look underneath at the Bedford show.

My solution is to fit a centre stand, but that's work in progress.... Must get a bigger backburner!!

[Darkness]

Originally Posted by utopia

Some pics might make this thread less boring, eh ?

Possibly not, but I can't miss the opportunity to show off a '94 alloy side stand. Very positive and only folds up with a good kick, even when you forget it's down.

[Darren69]

Will the later '02 stands fit and are they any better? I've never had any substantiated problems with the one on my S4 but I always make sure its all the way over, from experience with some of the earlier ones.

The 748 one on the other hand is altogether more worrying, since it is a converted suicide stand and sits almost vertically with the pivot. Its never fallen but it wouldn't take much more than a nudge to push it over.

[utopia]

Mine is nicely stable when its on the stand.
Though the clubfoot helps because it has a significantly larger footprint.
And I've obviously tuned the length so it leans nicely.

I'm also careful when using it, or any other sidestand for that matter, and I instinctively position the bike slightly uphill, observing kerbside cambers etc whenever I pull up.
It has never been a problem before, but in the haste of this particular occasion, it showed it's Achilles heel.
In retrospect, I was subconsciously expecting it to happen someday.

[damien666]

Anyone else have problems sometimes, fishing for the stand when putting it down? Always thought it could do with some kind of tab to make locating it easier. ( sorry fir hijack :-)