final and complete loss of faith - Page 4

buzzbomb · 26-11-2010, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lisyloo

A statement that if you murder people you can change things?

I don't think there is any place for mention of violence and murder on a discussion about changing the law. I did delete my initial reposnse as I felt that although completely true it was a little "harsh" for a friendly community.

However your post really takes the biscuit in that respect.
There is no place for it here.

Calm down, Calm down the guys only giving his opinion and we're all allowed to have one aren't we...

Capo · 26-11-2010, 05:06 PM

I reiterate a statement of the fact, not an opinion. these responses are mere presumptions.

I like biscuits specially with a cup of tea and I know Geoff does too.
Can I have some more please.

26-11-2010, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lisyloo

An individual might be required for a test case once this large amount of money backing, policy and research is in place.

There's a common misunderstanding about the nature of English law here. Judges can't alter statutes; they can only interpret what parliament give them. There's no test case to be run until there's an Act passed by the MPs and H of L, which could be passed as a result of political pressure or any other reason. That could, like it or not, be a result of a violent campaign or a peaceful one. I am sure that no-one on this site advocates terrorism, so please let's not lose the plot.

gary tompkins · 26-11-2010, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capo

I reiterate a statement of the fact, not an opinion. these responses are mere presumptions.

I like biscuits specially with a cup of tea and I know Geoff does too.
Can I have some more please.

Rich Tea, Digestive or Custard Cream?

Please don't tell me you are a Bourbon fancier or I will sulk, and possibly write to my MP

buzzbomb · 26-11-2010, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gary tompkins

Rich Tea, Digestive or Custard Cream?

Please don't tell me you are a Bourbon fancier or I will sulk, and possibly write to my MP

While your asking Gary it's chocolate YORKIE bar's...

27-11-2010, 09:10 PM

a bit pissed when answering so forgive me. but.

I speed as much as anyone, 30,000+ miles a year car and bike is inevitable. But NOT in 30 limit areas. I have 2 daughters under 10 years and at those ages they have no concept of speed or distance. Pissheads are the same. If your going through any built up area at speed when these type of people might be about - some one dies!

utopia · 27-11-2010, 10:33 PM

Forgiven...

I pretty much fully agree with you. And I reckon I always try to drive/ride safely. I consider it an art form, I suppose.
However, at 3.15 am neither your, nor my own children were anywhere but in their beds, and all the drunks, and everyone else, had gone home. I new this in advance, as I had passed that way just 10mins earlier. The 100yd stretch in question runs uphill between two sets of lights with no junctions between on either side, so no cars were about to appear unexpectedly. And the camera is located just after the first lights as the hill steepens and it seems natural to give a little more throttle to ease the climb. Finally, the camera shots show I had already moved to the offside lane so I was two lanes away from the pavement and anything unexpected coming from there (though there was no sign of people anywhere). I explained this to the court.
In my opinion ...1) The officer viewing the evidence should not have decded to pursue the case. 2) The camera should have been switched off at that time of day, maybe.
3) the court should have been able to moderate effectively.
It disappoints me that the system operates so poorly and not only misjudges and alienates those who merely break a dogmatic rule, but fails to adequately address the actual issues of road safety.
Like I said, I treat roadcraft kinda like an art form. I certainly try to do it right. I'm the kind of guy who lets people out of side junctions, always signals on roundabouts, maintains lane discipline, allows good stopping distance etc. 40yrs on 2 wheels and no broken bones yet, and car passengers often comment that they feel safe with my driving. I appreciate the dangers of arrogance, but I honestly believe that I'm one of the better drivers, and I know I at least try.
I too break speed limits on many occaisions. If I was electronically monitored I would collect enough points for a ban at least once a week. It would be for breaking the rules though, not for driving dangerously, in my humble and honest opinion.
I would gladly have attended a speed awareness course in lieu of points, in fact this is what I had hoped would happen. I quite fancy doing one anyway, just to see how I'd do.
Sorry for lengthy reply.
Cheers.

Nickj · 28-11-2010, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamsa

I am sure that no-one on this site advocates terrorism, so please let's not lose the plot.

It seems to me that the terms "terrorism" and "terrorist" are steeped in negative connotations and that the terms are most often applied as political labels for political ends.
If you identify with the victim of the act then the act is terrorism. If, however, you identify with the perpetrator, then you will regard the act in a more sympathetic way possibly even positive or, at the worst, an ambivalent light; and then it is not terrorism but justified resistance. It does rather depend if you are the 'side' being threatened or coerced, or the side resisting threats and coercion. Both are eminently flexible by circumstance.
Leaving the rather charged term of 'terrorism' to one side it is perhaps unfortunate that past acts of civil disobedience would seem to bear results, but as to it being justified it again rather depends on your standpoint. If for example you find yourself on the 'side' that has found that rational requests or requests for rationality are ignored, and attempts to foster political or legal change through the existing channels have likewise been dismissed by the side resisting the change then it becomes obvious that your options are limited to 'other methods'.
Here we can cite two examples of civil disobedience from the UK which did achieve their ends, the Poll Tax riots are one example, the Right to Roam acts are another, both featured mass civil disobedience. Both were dealt with by a blend of conventional legislation and elements of the anti-terrorism act 2000 and it's subsequent amendments; indicating an official feeling that some of those involved were indeed committing acts that could be construed as domestic terrorism, despite it's use no prosecutions based on it were bought.

Note: I'm not condoning or supporting terrorism nor civil disobedience, just pointing out that it depends which foot the boot is on and who is doing the kicking.

As to the speeding element of this strand, it happens, it's judged solely on the instant you pass the point being monitored. There is no element of context as to how unsafe or safe the act may have been, solely that it was committed. Simplest just to pay up and be on your way.

Char · 28-11-2010, 05:29 PM

my son once annonced quite loudly in a egyptian airport that we were terrorists ... what he ment was tourists

slipperyweeguy · 28-11-2010, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capo

I reiterate a statement of the fact, not an opinion. these responses are mere presumptions.

The statement "I believe the IRA was successful in changing a few laws" is not a statement of fact. It is a statement of a belief. The words "I believe" mean it is an opinion, regardless of how factual, fanciful or contentious the rest of the statement may be.

If you claim "The Devil wears a pink tutu." you may or may not be stating fact. Fact would require proof.
If you say "I believe The Devil wears a pink tutu." you are talking about the belief you hold.
"I believe a square has four sides." is still not a statement of fact. It is a statement of belief about a fact.

Words have meanings. They must be used carefully, especially in court. And airports.

29-11-2010, 09:35 AM

Man, this thread really has EXPLODED since I last checked on here.

/poor taste

How the hell did yet another speeding thread turn into discussions on the IRA and Taliban anyway??

utopia · 09-12-2010, 09:52 PM

Sorry to blab on, but I'm just watching the 10 o'clock news.
Police superintendant caught at 79mph in a 50 limit in Notts.
Initially let off with a caution.
Oh, the rancid stench of the double standard !!
We'll all be outlaws soon. ....not good.

jerry · 10-12-2010, 04:24 AM

When a drunken speeding police officer killed my Nephew in 2004 whilst going thru a red light ...he was not even prosecuted after a complete farce of an inquest , his blood alchohol was 2 times the limit he was doing 48mph in a 40 zone and he failed to stop at a Red light .

mind u he was forced out of the police 2 years later for incompetance . 2 other investigating police forces KENT and Surrey reccomended Full prosecution But Sussex Police whitewashed him.

One of my oldest friend since school days has been a 30 year career police officer and he despairs at the stupid laws he has to enforce ....He cant wait to get his pension next year and then retire to thailand.
There is actually an Outlaw biker club here , made up of expats of who half are ex retired UK coppers and a great bunch of rip roaring hard riding, drinking ,whoring ,partying maniacs who also deliver about £50,000 a year in charities to local orphanages and support the best local ambulance service , some of the act as volunteer paramedics for the ambulance as The Thais dont seem to train paramedics, even though they have good doctors and nurses.

utopia · 10-12-2010, 03:38 PM

Blimey Jerry, I'm sorry to hear that.

Your point about good coppers getting disillusioned is a good one..
If its like that for them, what chance does the law have of retaining the respect of ordinary people ?

And yes, my experience has been that the majority of police are good guys. Thats why most of them sign up in the first place. Its the wooly-headed, politically motivated, knee jerk legal system which is mostly at fault.

10-12-2010, 05:26 PM

Its the same here Jerry... a lot of ex coppers in clubs...
I have heard tails of their work do's!!..... probably not like that now days but ... bloody hell.

There is good and bad in all... I know some wonderful policemen who despair in their jobs now as they can't do it due to paperwork and bollox.
Others you have to wonder why they joined...

and yes some come out affected as my friend did after dealing with several nasty deaths .. followed by his fellow police club member being killed outright by some woman who was not fit to be on the road.
He did his job but when he was with us was not on duty and if anything the worst offender for messing about and bad behavior.
And yes done lots for charity as most clubs do.

26-11-2010, 05:06 PM	#47
Capo You Are What You Is Join Date: May 2005 Location: A Foward Location Bike: S4r Posts: 1,948	I reiterate a statement of the fact, not an opinion. these responses are mere presumptions. I like biscuits specially with a cup of tea and I know Geoff does too. Can I have some more please. Last edited by Capo; 26-11-2010 at 05:15 PM..

27-11-2010, 09:10 PM	#51
wheelybin Guest Posts: n/a	a bit pissed when answering so forgive me. but. I speed as much as anyone, 30,000+ miles a year car and bike is inevitable. But NOT in 30 limit areas. I have 2 daughters under 10 years and at those ages they have no concept of speed or distance. Pissheads are the same. If your going through any built up area at speed when these type of people might be about - some one dies! Last edited by wheelybin; 27-11-2010 at 09:11 PM.. Reason: spelting misatke

28-11-2010, 05:29 PM	#54
Char We're all mad here Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Wiltshire Bike: Other Not a Ducati Posts: 1,536	my son once annonced quite loudly in a egyptian airport that we were terrorists ... what he ment was tourists __________________ If you don't know where you are going any road can take you there

10-12-2010, 04:24 AM	#58
jerry Old Git Join Date: May 2006 Location: Cricklade Bike: Multiple Monsters Posts: 2,831	When a drunken speeding police officer killed my Nephew in 2004 whilst going thru a red light ...he was not even prosecuted after a complete farce of an inquest , his blood alchohol was 2 times the limit he was doing 48mph in a 40 zone and he failed to stop at a Red light . mind u he was forced out of the police 2 years later for incompetance . 2 other investigating police forces KENT and Surrey reccomended Full prosecution But Sussex Police whitewashed him. One of my oldest friend since school days has been a 30 year career police officer and he despairs at the stupid laws he has to enforce ....He cant wait to get his pension next year and then retire to thailand. There is actually an Outlaw biker club here , made up of expats of who half are ex retired UK coppers and a great bunch of rip roaring hard riding, drinking ,whoring ,partying maniacs who also deliver about £50,000 a year in charities to local orphanages and support the best local ambulance service , some of the act as volunteer paramedics for the ambulance as The Thais dont seem to train paramedics, even though they have good doctors and nurses. __________________ MONSTERMAN

27-11-2010, 10:33 PM	#52
utopia No turn left unstoned Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: leicester Bike: M750 Posts: 4,546	Forgiven... I pretty much fully agree with you. And I reckon I always try to drive/ride safely. I consider it an art form, I suppose. However, at 3.15 am neither your, nor my own children were anywhere but in their beds, and all the drunks, and everyone else, had gone home. I new this in advance, as I had passed that way just 10mins earlier. The 100yd stretch in question runs uphill between two sets of lights with no junctions between on either side, so no cars were about to appear unexpectedly. And the camera is located just after the first lights as the hill steepens and it seems natural to give a little more throttle to ease the climb. Finally, the camera shots show I had already moved to the offside lane so I was two lanes away from the pavement and anything unexpected coming from there (though there was no sign of people anywhere). I explained this to the court. In my opinion ...1) The officer viewing the evidence should not have decded to pursue the case. 2) The camera should have been switched off at that time of day, maybe. 3) the court should have been able to moderate effectively. It disappoints me that the system operates so poorly and not only misjudges and alienates those who merely break a dogmatic rule, but fails to adequately address the actual issues of road safety. Like I said, I treat roadcraft kinda like an art form. I certainly try to do it right. I'm the kind of guy who lets people out of side junctions, always signals on roundabouts, maintains lane discipline, allows good stopping distance etc. 40yrs on 2 wheels and no broken bones yet, and car passengers often comment that they feel safe with my driving. I appreciate the dangers of arrogance, but I honestly believe that I'm one of the better drivers, and I know I at least try. I too break speed limits on many occaisions. If I was electronically monitored I would collect enough points for a ban at least once a week. It would be for breaking the rules though, not for driving dangerously, in my humble and honest opinion. I would gladly have attended a speed awareness course in lieu of points, in fact this is what I had hoped would happen. I quite fancy doing one anyway, just to see how I'd do. Sorry for lengthy reply. Cheers.

29-11-2010, 09:35 AM	#56
mintyhit Guest Posts: n/a	Man, this thread really has EXPLODED since I last checked on here. /poor taste How the hell did yet another speeding thread turn into discussions on the IRA and Taliban anyway??

09-12-2010, 09:52 PM	#57
utopia No turn left unstoned Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: leicester Bike: M750 Posts: 4,546	Sorry to blab on, but I'm just watching the 10 o'clock news. Police superintendant caught at 79mph in a 50 limit in Notts. Initially let off with a caution. Oh, the rancid stench of the double standard !! We'll all be outlaws soon. ....not good.

10-12-2010, 03:38 PM	#59
utopia No turn left unstoned Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: leicester Bike: M750 Posts: 4,546	Blimey Jerry, I'm sorry to hear that. Your point about good coppers getting disillusioned is a good one.. If its like that for them, what chance does the law have of retaining the respect of ordinary people ? And yes, my experience has been that the majority of police are good guys. Thats why most of them sign up in the first place. Its the wooly-headed, politically motivated, knee jerk legal system which is mostly at fault.

10-12-2010, 05:26 PM	#60
He11cat Guest Posts: n/a	Its the same here Jerry... a lot of ex coppers in clubs... I have heard tails of their work do's!!..... probably not like that now days but ... bloody hell. There is good and bad in all... I know some wonderful policemen who despair in their jobs now as they can't do it due to paperwork and bollox. Others you have to wonder why they joined... and yes some come out affected as my friend did after dealing with several nasty deaths .. followed by his fellow police club member being killed outright by some woman who was not fit to be on the road. He did his job but when he was with us was not on duty and if anything the worst offender for messing about and bad behavior. And yes done lots for charity as most clubs do.