Lambda sensor and De-cat

Hi All

I know this is a topic that has had a bit of coverage on the forum, but I seem to be getting conflicting info.

I am looking to remove the cat on my s2r1000 but am concerned about the issues with the lambda sensor. I am looking at either the Marving pipes from spareshack or the DP ones from the dealer. I know the Marving ones take the lambda sensor but I am not sure about the DP ones.

My understanding is that so long as the sensor is in the exhaust I can continue to use the standard ECU, is this right?

Also I assume that in order to keep my warranty I would have to use the DP ones which are £100 more expensive.

Thanks in advance

KB

[rollo22]

Have a word with your dealer.They should be able to advise you about a lamda elimator thingy

I have called the dealer that I bought the bike from and chatted to him about the lambda sensor issue. He has never had any problems with fitting the DP de-cat pipes and said that if there were any issues the warranty would cover sort it.

My understanding is that so long as the sensor is in the pipe it should be able to take a reading and adjust the fuelling as needed. If this is this the case does the issues only arise when a PC111 is fitted?

Originally Posted by hydromonkey

Hi All

I know this is a topic that has had a bit of coverage on the forum, but I seem to be getting conflicting info.

I am looking to remove the cat on my s2r1000 but am concerned about the issues with the lambda sensor. I am looking at either the Marving pipes from spareshack or the DP ones from the dealer. I know the Marving ones take the lambda sensor but I am not sure about the DP ones.

My understanding is that so long as the sensor is in the exhaust I can continue to use the standard ECU, is this right?

KB

I have been down this route, as have a few others (blimey where do I start!!)
Right, here goes.
Bikes that do not run the lamba sensor can get away with running a de-cat pipe & aftermarket can on the standard ecu (at worst it may need a PC111 & dyno run)

Bikes that have a lamba sensor fitted are a totally different kettle of fish.
The bike will not run correctly with a de-cat pipe & aftermarket can fitted.
It will run very lean & pop & backfire on the over-run.
the only way around this is to fit a DP ECU & have it set up by the dealer via their diagnostic equipment (DDS) Once this is done you probably won't need a PC111.
(A DP ECU does not look for the lamba sensor, it can be removed from the bike & it will not put the engine check light on)

The reason that you need the DP ECU is that the lamba sensor controls the fueling below 33% of the throttle opening. Fitting a PC111 will have no effect on the fuelling below 33% of the thottle opening with the standard ECU fitted & is therfore a waste of time & money.

I looked into the possibillity of a fuel enrichment device, but there arn't that many about suitable for a Ducati & a lot of them make very dubious claims.

Your only option is the DP ECU if you want the bike to run properly.

[Capo]

Your assumptions and understanding are correct, as long as the sensor is there, the std ecu will function as designed. The ecu operates in closed loop mode at low RPM and switches to open mode above that.
Issues arise with the low rpm fueling when using a pc, with or without the sensor.

Originally Posted by hydromonkey

I have called the dealer that I bought the bike from and chatted to him about the lambda sensor issue. He has never had any problems with fitting the DP de-cat pipes and said that if there were any issues the warranty would cover sort it.

My understanding is that so long as the sensor is in the pipe it should be able to take a reading and adjust the fuelling as needed. If this is this the case does the issues only arise when a PC111 is fitted?

A couple of things here.

1. I doubt the warranty will cover any running problems you may encounter because the DP de-cat pipe is not road homoglated (you will be removing the cat)

2. Capo is right when he says that the standard ECU runs closed loop below 33% throttle & open loop above that & the lamba sensor does adjust the fueling but only within certain perameters.
It will not be capable of richening the fuel enough to cope with running a de-cat pipe.

Thanks for the info.

I understand the point about the standard ecu not having the necessary range to handle the change in pipes. My plan is to keep the standard cans so hopefully it will be ok. (the dealer assures me that it will.)

The only reason that I am even considering the DP pipe is the warranty, but as you say it is 'race use only' so this might not be the case. I have asked the dealer about the warranty and he says it is the only one that will not affect it, but then he might be looking for a sale. I will probably be getting the dealer to fit it and will be making sure that he will cover any running problems.

I know from searching on here that you have been through this before Desmo and I appreciate the feedback, I take it you ended up with the fill system in the end. Any experiences with this will be a great help as I would like to know what my options are as I really cannot afford the full system with ECU (have been quoted £900 for the termi cans/filter/ecu)

[Capo]

There is apparently a 'gizmo' that allows the removal of the sensor.

As desmo has pointed out, if you modify the inlet & exhaust, some adjustment in the fuelling will be required, there is no provision in the ecu for this other than a trim that affects the whole range. The DP ecu is mapped for DP airbox/pipes/cans.

Originally Posted by hydromonkey

Thanks for the info.

I understand the point about the standard ecu not having the necessary range to handle the change in pipes. My plan is to keep the standard cans so hopefully it will be ok. (the dealer assures me that it will.)

The only reason that I am even considering the DP pipe is the warranty, but as you say it is 'race use only' so this might not be the case. I have asked the dealer about the warranty and he says it is the only one that will not affect it, but then he might be looking for a sale. I will probably be getting the dealer to fit it and will be making sure that he will cover any running problems.

I know from searching on here that you have been through this before Desmo and I appreciate the feedback, I take it you ended up with the fill system in the end. Any experiences with this will be a great help as I would like to know what my options are as I really cannot afford the full system with ECU (have been quoted £900 for the termi cans/filter/ecu)

Unfortunately, I don't think it will work, you can replace the cans with an after market one (leaving the cat still in place) & the bike will run fine on the standard ECU, but if you do it the other way around (I.E standard cans & de-cat pipe, but bike will probably run like poo)
The cat is highly restrictive, another issue with the DP de-cat pipe is that it runs underneath the oil filter making the filter difficult / impossible to change without removing the pipe (not 100% sure on that, but that's what I have heard) the Spareshack de-cat pipe does not have this problem as it runs to one side of the oil filter.

As regards warranty, at the end of the day it's the dealers decision if he can cover it under warranty or not, but I don't see how he will be able to claim his costs back from Ducati.

As I see it you only have 2x options.

1. Save up for a Termi kit (silencers / air filter / DP ECU (about £1000)
you will still have to buy a de-cat pipe on top of that (approx £200)

2. Go the route I took.
Remus Titanium can ( approx £340)
DP Air Filter (approx £50)
Spareshack De-cat pipe (£120)
DP ECU (approx £550)

Of course you can take a chance & try what you are planning, but I don't think it will work, I tried all sorts to avoid having to buy a DP ECU but there was no way of getting the bike to run correctly on the standard ECU, so in the end I gave in & bought one, the bike now runs great.
it is frustrating & costly once you start to modify the exhaust on a modern bike, but due to the emission laws that we have now it is no longer possible to just modify an exhaust & expect it to run correctly without spending lots of money to overcome to lean running.

I think you are right and this could be more expensive than I thought, but I bought a Ducati and I want it to sound like one so I have little choice but to go for it. I will try the link pipe to see how it goes and if needed will get the rest as and when I can.

(I like your avatar Desmo, we have a springer as well)

[jerry]

Look at this on desmo times it could be the cure for O2 sensor problems

www.desmotimes.com/product166.htm

Originally Posted by hydromonkey

(I like your avatar Desmo, we have a springer as well)

Thank you.
Fantastic dogs aren't they, he was 2 yrs old back in August & is into everything, he has spent the afternoon trying to steal the decorations off the Christmas tree.

Yeah they are great dogs but a bit hyper. Ours turned 9 in November and she is still not showing any signs of slowing down. I take it by the pics yours is working, ours is trained to do as she likes . You would think that the dogs in the background in the first pic would have behaved themselves while you took the photo .

Anyway back on topic, I have ordered the DP pipes from the dealer and will report back once fitted. If it does have problems it will at least be an excuse to get the termis.

Hi All

The dp pipes have been fitted and I think they have changed the routing of the front pipe, as it now runs down the right side of the oil filter allowing the filter to be changed without taking the pipe of. The infamous lambda sensor is now on the front pipe in closer to the engine, near the starter motor. So far the only changes that I have noticed are a nicer sound and it is a bit livelier, but I have only been taken the bike from the dealers to home so will not know I there are any issues till I get it out for a proper run. Will keep you posted.

KB

Originally Posted by hydromonkey

Hi All

The dp pipes have been fitted and I think they have changed the routing of the front pipe, as it now runs down the right side of the oil filter allowing the filter to be changed without taking the pipe of. The infamous lambda sensor is now on the front pipe in closer to the engine, near the starter motor. So far the only changes that I have noticed are a nicer sound and it is a bit livelier, but I have only been taken the bike from the dealers to home so will not know I there are any issues till I get it out for a proper run. Will keep you posted.

KB

Hydromonkey - interesting; I've been thinking about a DP de-cat pipe for my '06 S2R800. But I'm not up to date with all the issues (although according to the dealer - they're are no issues?)

Like you I would like to liberate some more of that special Ducati sound. I would love Termis but at c£800 + fitting....

I'll look out for your update - I'm interested in the changes you detect (particlularly the sound!).