Identity Cards

[Mark Walker]

While a little bored in the coffee break at an NHS conference on Tuesday I was reading the paper and perusing an article about the impending introduction of Identity Cards in this country......personally, apart from the the absolute cheek of having to pay for them ourselves, I don't really have any problems with them........just wondered what other people thought?

comments? votes? or just ignore me if this has been done before and I never noticed :D

[stef]

we've lived with them for decades in France.. an serves more good than bad, in my opinion.
but then.. France is a bit of a police state. and by that, i dont mean that Sting drops in often ...

[Richard_S]

Problem with these things (as per any official documentation) is the ease at which forgers can reproduce. You will never catch whom you really want because unfortunately any decent outlaw has the common sense and foresight to always be one step ahead. Cards are not even close to infallible. If they are determined to keep tabs on everyone in the country (as f they haven’t got enough to do and don't already) then the only way is branding at birth. Not something I would sign up to.

[stef]

good point.. you can forged them easily...
but to me, if it gives mr bobby in the street the power to nail some drunk barechested asshole for shouting and pissing in the street at 3am in the morning (or at least get his 'real' id in the big log), then to me that's brings some good.
of course, it's opened to abuse.. but which would you rather have ? the old philosophical question: would you rather have justice or order...
very very tricky..
the ID card is no solution to every problem, but maybe it's just something else towards it.

[SazzaG]

I've got no problem with having one, but then I've got nothing to hide!

[A Yerbury]

expenseive, simplistic, pointless (we have plenty of ID as it is) and real criminals will work around them as they recquire easily forged id to set up in the first place. its blunkett playing the daily mail fear game, perhaps spending more on sensible policing and urban regeneration would be a better idea...nah too complicated. lets impress joe public with whizz bang technology "yes folks just like in minority report!" and stir up more paranoia? who is it this week? assylum seekers? mad mullahs? gippos? single mums? paedophilles? chat rooms? small number plates? road protesters? huntsmen? hunt saboteurs?...oh its that liz hurley, she's lovely but look at that slag jordan...reckon that peter andre looks like an A-rab......

[Richard_S]

Point taken Stef but surely to justify the vast expenditure of a scheme like this (and given we will have to pay for the cards themselves directly) it seems as though we should be using it to tackle real criminals. Drunken lager louts are a nusience etc but we all know that even if apprehended, details taken etc bugger all happens about it. if they want us to have cards then they need to assure us thats it is for a valid and consturctive purpose. Collecting data from street urchins is all well and good but does strike me as being pointless given the state of the punishment system in this country.

[stef]

yes, agreed.
it's the whole line that has to evolve with it. IDs would be pretty useless on their own, unless as you say, harsh punishement follows..it's a difficult balance.
but Al, i get your point on paranoia states, but disagree with one of your statements: i dont think we have any means to give our true ID nowadays.
driving license ? not everyone has one. passport ? i dont carry that around..
birth certificate ? even less !
plus, if they do it well, the ID shouldnt be that easy to fake, at least out of ,most people's league, and at best, more difficult than a passeport.
but anyway, what do i know.. i am not runing for parlement.

[SAMMYE]

My problem with identity cards is that, its all well and good the current government having all sorts of details about us stored onto a computer because we trust them (ahem) but bearing in mind we dont seem to have much of a choice about the cards anyway what further details will they 'request'? DNA? etc etc my problem is where this will lead and what future governments will 'request' from us.

We seem to be in a dangerous situation (in my opinion) where more people vote on pop idol / Im a celebrity, than they do for the election's so who knows what sort of Government the 'mindless masses' will one day vote in?

[stef]

bottom line is we need more policing. an ID card is a tool that i think they could do with. forget about anti-terrorist and all the blankett crap. this in my opinion is more of a street level thing, just to put a name on the antisocial assholes around, if anything. besides, the governement doesnt need an ID card to keep a record on us.

[SazzaG]

besides, the governement doesnt need an ID card to keep a record on us.

Ain't that the truth!

[A Yerbury]

how is an id card going to help on a street level? identifying who some one "is" is not really a problem in this area? there arent thousands on remand in this country simply because they have kept schtum for two weeks and no one knows who they are?! ID/ no ID/ fake ID or otherwise, if witness's see you put a knife in someone the courts wont say "curses! the man with no name! we must free him at once!!" the sad fact is that most street crime is commited by young men who are often employed regular bods so extremely pissed that the next day they dont even recall "throwing the bottle at that girl-smashing the windows of that car-etc etc" booze can make otherwise normal folk behave like twats. Will not carrying an id card be an offence? Id was compulsory for blacks in south africa and the populace of the gestapo forged ghettos remember.

[stef]

and i'd be more than happy to have my DNA kept in a database, if everyone did the same. would make policing work that much easier.

[stef]

to answer your point al, the police has two choices at the moment. arrest the guy, or let him go, with only his word to take regarding his name, and a slap on the wrist.
they cant fine him or anything and arresting everyone is just not an option.
if they could establish his real id at street level, file it and mail him a court appearance or a fine, that would be usefull.

they started using video cameras in sheffield, sort of in your face approach.. seem to be calming people down ! now combine this with: "we know your name and your address..." it's a winner !

[A Yerbury]

mine is on a data base! quite handy if I ever get falsely accused of something.....

[DesmoDog]

Don't like the idea of paying for the blighter - surely we've already paid somewhere?

[stef]

yep, french id's are free.

[diogenes]

I would concur with most of Alex's points. I resent the duplicity of Blunkett invoking the fear of terrorism to legitimise their issue. Clearly I.D. cards had no effect on the 9/11 disaster nor the Madrid Railway bombing.

More to the point. Given the alarming rise in identiity theft how long would it take before this occurs with I.D. card theft. If a young hacker can get access to the American Strategic Warfare computor I don't hold up much hope for the British system, given the fiasco with the C.S.A.

As to National Health, Benefits fraud. Unless I am mistaken we already have a system. It's called a National Insurance number and a Birth Certificate.

[Didge]

1) The government are trying to force I.D. cards on us, BUT WE HAVE TO PAY FOR THE BLOODY THINGS! That's a fackin' nonsense.

2) If I.D. cards are made a legal requirement, there will be NO legal requirement to carry them. WHAT'S THE POINT IN THEM THEN?

3) What happens if you lose it? You won't be able to go to your Doctors / Hospital / get your benefits etc, etc. HOW LONG TO GET A REPLACEMENT?

4) Criminals / terrorists and other scum, WILL be able to carry forgeries. It's ALWAYS happened in countries that have this sort of thing. How do you think spies operate?

It's a Blairite control thing yet again. Notice how they are threatening a fine of £2,500.00 on anyone refusing to register. They are trying to frighten off dissent from the ordinary man / woman.

WHO VOTED THESE PRICKS IN POWER A SECOND TIME?

[stef]

2) If I.D. cards are made a legal requirement, there will be NO legal requirement to carry them. WHAT'S THE POINT IN THEM THEN?


4) Criminals / terrorists and other scum, WILL be able to carry forgeries. It's ALWAYS happened in countries that have this sort of thing. How do you think spies operate?

It's a Blairite control thing yet again. Notice how they are threatening a fine of £2,500.00 on anyone refusing to register. They are trying to frighten off dissent from the ordinary man / woman.

WHO VOTED THESE PRICKS IN POWER A SECOND TIME?[/QUOTE]

2) agreed 100%. they would have to make us carry it at all time, like a driving license. in fact they could build the driving license as a few' 'tick box' on the ID card. noone would complain.
4)not sure about that.. how accessible is a decent fake passeport.
they are not trying to fight "terrorism" or spies or even organise crime here, eventhough they might try to make us believe that. it's just an extra tool. think of it by going the other way, and lets ditch passeports.. imagine the mess. ID is a good thing in France, it works.
Blankett is a complete asshole i hope he gets the sack soon ! the sort of stunt he 'pulled' happens every day in France, noone cares.. it's funny to see the vandettta on this one.. will teach him well.

[Richard_S]

fake passports are no issue at all. i can get one with a weeks notice.

you can get anything u want if your prepared to pay for it and I do mean anything.

[stef]

i wouldnt know where to look/ask for one !

[JR]

Had an ID when I was a Squaddy. I am 59 go 2 Europe regular as clockwork (just returned this morning in fact) - often dont show any passport going out. I will not have one, will not carry one no matter what the government say. The person who thinks France is a Police state is not doing the Europe I travel in. Three days in Europe never saw a copper - 3 minutes in Dover 6. Regular as clockwork I have the impression that the UK is now a police state. Day or night police in the UK are ever on sight, but the laws in this county only apply to the law abiding.

[stef]

Had an ID when I was a Squaddy. I am 59 go 2 Europe regular as clockwork (just returned this morning in fact) - often dont show any passport going out. I will not have one, will not carry one no matter what the government say. The person who thinks France is a Police state is not doing the Europe I travel in. Three days in Europe never saw a copper - 3 minutes in Dover 6. Regular as clockwork I have the impression that the UK is now a police state. Day or night police in the UK are ever on sight, but the laws in this county only apply to the law abiding.

well..I said france was a police state..coz i am french, been in the uk 10yrs.
I go back pretty often too, and elsewhere in Europe, by all sorts of means: Ferry, plane, bus and even trains. I never crossed the channel without having to show my passeport or id card. on the other hand, i only had to show it once between France and germany on a train. I am not calling you a liar, but are you a pilot or something ? how do you do it ?

[diogenes]

Is it not ironic that a leading member of the 'Nanny State' is embarrassed by a Nanny?

O I chuckle.

[stef]

(dont think i have strong views on the subject i am just bored at work today)
I ellaborate if you want: we have 2 police in France: regular police, from the home office if you like, and the gendarmerie, which is from the defence ministry. the second kind is the most common. they have the right to walk in your house for any reason they like. even in the states, they couldnt pull that one off ! sometime, the governement has the right to make the ID card compulsary (such as 10 years ago, with the algerian terrorists blasting the underground) and the police/gendarmerie can arrest you if you dont carry it. i'd almost call that martial law..

[Phoenix]

I'd like to know why it's deemed necessary for us to carry id cards ? Is it do with terrorists and illegal immigrants ?

If so then I can't get me head around it really - like they're gonna GAF if they carry the right id card?

It'll be the law abiders who fill it in -bend over- pay and get f****d over -in general again :eek:

[JR]

No, I aint a pilot, I drive a very fast white Mercedes Van. Ok as you say France may not be perfect, but, ulike Britain I dont have the feeling that the cops are breathing down your neck all the time. As I said, the laws in Britain are for the law abiding.
ID cards are about as much use as a chocolate teapot.

JR

[stef]

I suppose you have to make a distinction here. France is a police state where the police has a lot of power. they dont need to show their presence as much as here, because people generally 'behave'. Sorry to have to say it, but the drunk shouting lout culture is a british problem... much less pronounced in France. In england, you can go an **** on a police car, you'll get your hand slapt before they drop you home.. well, french police carries loaded automatics, you'll get your nads blown off before you have the time to drop your pants. I mean, half of them (the gendarmerie) are millitary. they live in barracks with their famillies. up to 3 years ago, you could do your millitary service as part of it. that means an 18 year old with the power to arrest anyone or walk anywhere without having to ask first. And i am not even going to talk about the CRS (crowd control police).. they are niknamed the 'SS'.
the ID card just goes hand in hand with a strong police. it's a step forward. you cant expect the british public to accept a french style police overnight, it has to come in steps. to me this could well be the first one. and to be honest, we could do with it ! (as for terrorism, pheonix, that's just a cover to justify those first steps.)
(i seem to have a thing about drunks, dont i ?)
here is another difference, in France the gendarme (literrally 'man with weapons') is the bad man parents scare the kids with.. in england, the bobby is a good guy !
so it boils down to this: if you want order (proper order) you need a strong police, and they need tools. the ID is a good one to start with. so the question is, do you want a stronger police, knowing it's bound to step on your civil liberties.

then, you have all the side benefits of the id: for employement(cant get a job without one.. even in a pub), benefits...why do you think asylum seekers dont stop in France?
dont get me wrong, i dont have a problem with asylum seekers, i am just giving you an example)

[Phoenix]

Think we've had too much of 'dogooder' and 'politically correct' culture over here for far too long and that reflects in the way we appear to have to be namby pambied into things.
I still don't fully understand the need for id cards to correct the damage thats been done since the 70's probably, as far as I can see, in the slow erosion of the respect for police-property-law and person and anything else for that matter.
It looks to me like the government over the last few years have gone down a knee jerk reaction route, classic example to me is the camera issue speeding = deaths= more cameras when it's not statisically true.
Over the last few months i've noticed more and more nannying laws coming in and i'm sure they can't all be right.
We'll all end up like disgruntled teenagers being told we can't go out to play with our mates - only in this case we'll end up with anarchy and civil riots if they keep on passing these reactive laws without curing the ailments that are swallowing us up.

Not sure if that makes any sense really :confused: Blimey this coffees good :eek:

[Duncan]

I have to agree with JR. ID cards only affect the law abiding and the criminals will just go and get a fake one or steal someone elses.

I have lived in this fair country for 43 years and also been lucky enough to go round the world and visit capitalist, communist and Fascist states in that time. I consider the UK to be a good safe place to live, work and raise a family (though if I lived in a city ghetto I might not). I walk the streets safely, have only suffered a couple of burgled cars and can see absolutely no reason why an ID card is going to solve crime.

Statistics can be made to say whatever you like, a
- they say 50% of theft is drug related. So if you need to steal for the next fix is an ID card going to stop it. I dont think so.
- It will help tackle organised crime. If you put your profession on the card as 'criminal' that may be true but criminal gangs will have fake ID cards and for everyone else theres Mastercard
- It will stop illegal working - Employers arent supposed to employ people without a National Insurance number and they flout that. Just ask a few Chinese cockle pickers in Morecombe bay what difference an ID card would have made. If anything it just drives illegals further into the hands of the criminal gangs.
- It will stop terorists - Just look at them quaking in their boots, it never worked in N Ireland so why will it work here?

The question I think is more fundamental. This country is free and a great place for it. Why surrender your freedoms which once lost can never be regained. Once theres a card, theres a means to control the masses. Over the years Europe has seen fascist dictators in Spain, Germany and Italy, communism in E Germany, huge political swings in France etc etc , and Hitler walked through the lot just 60 years ago. Yet they seem willing to surrender to state control, to EU politicians elected by other countries and to others who are totally unelected, to merge into one gloopy super european state with no individual identites, no individual currency, no control over their own futures, no control over their borders.

We are an Island race, we have identity, we are individuals lets keep it that way.

Proud to be British, proud to be free, thats me!!

[stef]

i think fundementally the id card is not a bad thing, but the way it has been presented to the public is complete bull. mind you, the press and oposition dont help.. they just send crazy ideas and counter arguments flying in the public mind.. you end up with a confused nation which finds voting for pop idol mentally refreshing !. At least in France, the press belongs to the 'lagardere' group, which also owns the big millitary companies.. none of that confusing freedom of the press crap !:D

[Didge]

[QUOTE=stef]dont get me wrong, i dont have a problem with asylum seekers, QUOTE]

No one in France has a problem with so-called asylum seekers, because the French authorities encourage them to come over here.
I don't care what anyone says, I have a BLOODY BIG PROBLEM with 'asylum seekers', and I.D. cards won't stop them.
If this government really wanted to do something about it, they should have shown some balls and started deporting the lot of them. If the so-called U.N. laws (set up just after WW2) were PROPERLY abided by, we'd have no Eastern Europeans over here for instance, as asylum must be sought in the FIRST free country one enters.

[Dave in USA]

We have 'id' as such here in the States, its your drivers licence, took a while to get used to having to show it when cashing checks etc, or getting money from the bank over the counter.

It is the accepted form of ID here, has been forever as far as I can tell, and has to be renewed every 5 years so the (crappy) photo remains almost current.

Dave

:cool:

[Phoenix]

I have to agree with JR. ID cards only affect the law abiding and the criminals will just go and get a fake one or steal someone elses.
----snip-----We are an Island race, we have identity, we are individuals lets keep it that way.

Proud to be British, proud to be free, thats me!!


I just stood up and applauded :eek:

[stef]

here is an example:
a guy sits in his car outside a girl school. without any ID the police can speak to him without ever knowing his real name. he could turn out to have been convicted 10 times for assault on young girls, the police wouldnt have a clue. and they wouldnt be able to arrest him either, for just waiting outside a school. if ID was compulsary, they could find this out in 20 seconds (french police carries terminals in their vehicles).. i could think of 100 more situations like this.

it's all a chain really. it wont solve drug related crime, as you say... but if it helps solving other crimes faster or preventing others, that's more resources in other areas.
If we had DNA ID cards, the amount of unsolved crimes that would be solved overnight would surely releive some resources..
and as for illegal work, i can assure you it works, if the infrastructure is well in place. i can find a job in a bar in the uk with the police looking for me. in France, i doubt it. you would have to prove your identity first, you will be filed at the inland revenue. having been through it, i know what i am saying. the rate of undeclared employement is far greater in the uk.

[stef]

with ID cards, the work of 'work inspectors' is actually possible. They could check that all the workers on site are in the books. that is impossible without ID cards..
so yes, i beleive the ID card would have save those chineese guys, if it had been in place 20 years ago. the whole attitude towards undeclared employement would be completely different.
but of course the cynical will say that it wont solve all crime.. i say it might just help reducing it.

[A Yerbury]

my old man and I go boarding/skiing in austria and we normally drive the whole way from his place in normandy. on most occasions I never see a police vehicle?! police state but its an on the spot fine as opposed to all the paperwork and points nonsense one is hit with over here.

[Will]

Identity cards will NOT reduce crime - do countries with identity cards have less crime then the UK?.

Criminals will always find a way to carry on their business.

Honest citizens will simply be more easily monitored and controlled by the state.

Also answer this:
In order to get an identity card we will need to prove our identity - if we can do this why do we need identity cards!

The sooner that control freak Blunkett is replaced the better for all.

Will

[stef]

you cant draw symplistic conclusions this way but yes, France has less assault, burglaries, drug related crimes and car crime. only in murders we fare better ! (but then, that doesnt show the numbers of people arrested for those murders.. so forget about stats.)

you could also say that monaco doesnt have ID cards, and there is less crime.
or Irak under saddam... no ID, very little crime..

my point is you cant use stats.

[stef]

your best indicator would be to ask a few police men.
would an ID card make their job easier ?
is the answer is a majority of yes... i'd say bring it on !!

[A Yerbury]

the police are not that keen, some chiefs are but they really only want to curry favour with the home office and feather their own nests....It would mean yet more bureaucrocy which weighs down our forces enough as it is. statistics are far from perfect but there is no alternative and whilst never 100 percent representational, viewed as a whole they do offer insight into a nations policy decisions, the 3 strikes and out policy is bancrupting california at the moment -right wing crowd pleaser- and germany, huge country, larger population has 1/2 the population of inmates than us?! I think of all only turkey has a higher ratio per head.

[Duncan]

your best indicator would be to ask a few police men.
would an ID card make their job easier ?
is the answer is a majority of yes... i'd say bring it on !!


A dusk to dawn curfew would also make a coppers life easier, as would chopping off the hands of convicted thieves, castrating rapists and paedophiles etc etc but we dont do it because we are a free civilised society.

Just because something makes the life of the police easier doesnt make it correct and as individuals we have a right to freedoms. One of those is freedom from unecessary state interference. The ID card is one step too far, its an unecessary, inneffective way to control innocent people. I will march on Westminster and exercise my democratic right to protest before I accept this.

[stef]

Al,
by the time you have built-in police budget, equipment, punishement, social background, 'free time' per capita, conviction number, nature of crime, paper work involved in policing work, actual policing time, unreported crime you are in a very complex situation. stats just dont work..
but anyway, we are all entitled to different views, I feel that forcing people to have insurance is not right, paying TV license is a joke, wearing a helmet should be down to the individual...

if you are all happy about the state of the nation, fair enough. after having lived with one for 30years, i can assure you, it is a very demochratic tool.
another example is underaged drinking.. could be reduced by a great amount.

I personally think the police should be given more power. that comes at a civil liberty price.
We are all subjected to credit ratings.. isnt that far more of a joke ?
you are forced to carry your driving license to drive...

[SteveSki]

The police should be given more power? any power they have seems to be misused. The thing that makes me laugh is that the Police are supposed to be thought of as strict, professional individuals who only know black/white areas and act with the publics "best interest's" at heart. Infact i've had many a cop friends that couldn't give a flying about what they stand for, they just do their job, do what they want really and have a great game of snooker pulling cars over.........more power? more nine-bob-note coppers.....

[A Yerbury]

stef you miss the point -come on you're an intelligent chap!- statistics are not 100 % accurate as I stated but good research (I've worked in this field so I do know how reports can be skewed) would factor in those elements of budgets, national character, significant adjacent legislation and all those other determining elements. Govt departments are quick to align themselves with research that more or less validates their own opinions yet distance themselves and use the flawed information argument when shown otherwise. The "truth" as in life often falls somewhere inbetween and its only when the convergent data from myriad sources is colated that something can be convincingly read one way or another. to say they just "dont work" is too polarised an opinion. (IMO etcetcetc) societys take a long time to change and sadly us brits do fall some way behind our continental neighbours, are we getting better? who knows and personally Im not sticking around holding my breath!!

[SAMMYE]

A dusk to dawn curfew would also make a coppers life easier, as would chopping off the hands of convicted thieves, castrating rapists and paedophiles etc etc but we dont do it because we are a free civilised society.

Just because something makes the life of the police easier doesnt make it correct and as individuals we have a right to freedoms. One of those is freedom from unecessary state interference. The ID card is one step too far, its an unecessary, inneffective way to control innocent people. I will march on Westminster and exercise my democratic right to protest before I accept this.

I'm with you there Dunc! We havent needed ID cards since the dawn of time why do we need them now!! I dont want my DNA stored by any F'ing government so why should it be forced upon me!! Maybe there is a line where perhaps convicted criminals should be chipped or something but certainly not law abiding citizens

[A Yerbury]

anyone arrested has prints taken and a dna swab, no need to chip people sam streuth! tattooed numbers next....

[SAMMYE]

anyone arrested has prints taken and a dna swab, no need to chip people sam streuth! tattooed numbers next....

That was really in response to stefs 'pervert outside a school' and the police not knowing who they are talking to.

[stef]

well.. i could mention the well publicised soham murders..

you are right Alex, it's that i sometime take shortcuts with my english.
when i meant they dont work, i ment more that you cant just say countries with ID have less crime, simple statistics can let you say that, if you see what i mean.

chipping/tagging whatever only convicted criminal would certainly be enough ... about about the first time rapists, or those who never got caught/ convicted ?
I am sure that those oposing DNA on ID cards had daugters, they may think different !
on the issue of faking the ID cards.. that doesnt work.
the Police has access to the books. if your fake id is not in there, you are screwed. if you nick somebody else's, you still need to have the same face, since your picture is on it !
my french ID used to have a thumb print on it.

the government (if you feel they are the bad guys) have already billions of ways to screw you over. as for police not enjoying their jobs.. i cant blame them.. must be extremely frustrating to ask you to solve crime but not give you the means..

[Duncan]

I am sure that those oposing DNA on ID cards had daugters, they may think different !

I shall be going up the school in a minute in my car, sitting outside and watching the young girls come out. I may even pick a few up and bring them back to mine..........

Why?

Because my daughters one of those girls coming out. Its called being a responsible parent.

However, I would be most indignant if some copper classed me as a pervert for being where I was at a particular time and insisting I prove my innocence. It is a dangerous road you travel when you are guilty until proven innocent but in your eyes at least...this afternoon I shall be a pervert and paedo.

[SAMMYE]

chipping/tagging whatever only convicted criminal would certainly be enough ... about about the first time rapists, or those who never got caught/ convicted ?


We are all innocent until proven guilty!!! although I think Blunkett wants to change that next, into an american style guilty until you prove your innocence

[A Yerbury]

ok but if you took a fake passport birth certificate etc to register with a biometric id card you would be on the system/books only "you" wouldnt really be you. the more you pay for fake id the better you get, ie someone on the inside updates the bureas internal network.Even externally these systems are regularly hacked into. any way we are all agreed they are a daft idea! next subject.......:)
and as duncan points out that level of paranoia is not good for a nations psyche (to get all pseuds corner) lets not forget angry mobs hurling abuse at paedeotricians (spelt incorrectly no doubt)

[stef]

ar.. come on.. i am sure you would be glad if the police checked-up on suspicious looking guys waiting outside schools.. i would.. even if just happened to be there...mind you i have assumed they would be clever enough to avoid checking on parents waiting at pickup time !
in fact they are already tackling the pervs grooming schoolgirls around Bradford. (it's true, i saw it on TV)
unfortunately, there isnt anything they can do ! those guys are not even breaking the law. maybe they wouldbe dissuaded if they knew the police had their name and address ?

I'd rather see a police man do that than the copper in wakefield who is employed full time reading VIN plates of burned cars and arranging for them to be picked up.. that is a waste of resources ! why do they need a qualified officer to do that ?

[stef]

to answer your point Al (i thought you almost got me for a minute !)
you are not talking about a fake id card anymore, you are talking about getting one with fake documents to support it.
so you will need a bloody good passport, because that one is not going to be flashed quickly at an officer, it's actually going to be carefully processed, (or should be).
you will also need a equally good birth certificate etc.. etc.. the amount of genuinely looking docs that you will need surely makes it more difficult.

in anycase, you dont need a passeport, I had an ID card before i had a passeport. i got that with a birth certificate, 'familly book', parents birth certificate and 2 months of processing...
now lets assume you get your ID this way... if its got your DNA and your picture on it, it's still a damn good start to any investigation, even if its a false name, because the police will also have this info.

so we have established that they are very difficult to fake for the comon mortal that doesnt have someone inside (that takes care of 95% of the scum around where i live).
and we have also established that even if you get a fake one from the inside, they are still attached to an individual with a face and DNA.


I just dont get why people are so upset about them. civil liberties are broken in far worse, useless ways than this !
i have a thing about protecting civil rights too.. but i dont think this one is that bad. how about taping on personal phone calls ? locating mobiles when in use? info gathering while surfing ? and these can be done by 'private' companies !!!

[stef]

just a quick one: (i am on fire today ! :D )
funny how people are prepared to go and march in front of parlement against ID cards,
but very little was done to stop the so called 'anti-terrorism' act ! which do you prefer ?

[SteveSki]

Well after reading this and having my mind fried like a bargin bucket, I still think I.D. cards are a further invasion of privacy and the fact we have to pay for them ourselves, ridiculous. Not only do we have to pay for drving license's etc. but now this?
What happens if you loose it? another 80 squid? no thanks........

Have great weekends one and all

[stef]

on this i agree completely with you steve.
they want the tool, they pay for it. we pay taxes. that's what it's for.
we use to have to pay around 25 squids for them in France, now it's free.
if they had the brains to use them right, such as to reduced illegal employement, they would make their money back resonably fast in taxes.
but gosh, that would require forward thinking and long term plans !

[SteveSki]

and as we know Labour arn't the smartest of people, infact New Labour? more like Old Labour with a smiley face.......but thats another argument for another time........so have great weekends, ride hard, break the law and have some damn fun......

Peace

[stef]

I'm with you there Dunc! We havent needed ID cards since the dawn of time why do we need them now!! I dont want my DNA stored by any F'ing government so why should it be forced upon me!! Maybe there is a line where perhaps convicted criminals should be chipped or something but certainly not law abiding citizens


um the dawn of time, is that when tribes used to club each other to death and steal each other's women ? ;)
I am going on a bit on this, so please, just stop replying !
but i had an idea :
let the germans sort it out for us, and we will have the best solution man could engineer. it will be futur proof, and will even store bio info such as blood group, alergies, organ donor status, emergency phone number etc.. at the moment some of this is limited to people with a license, probably half the population.. wouldnt it be great ! :D .. maybe we could even have our favourite popstars on the back !

[Billy Bigwheels]

Civil liberty: A liberty legally guaranteeing to the individual a right such as free speech, thought or action, limited only insofar as it's use must not interfere with the rights of others.

Perhaps i'm being to literal but how does an ID card infridge my civil liberty? As part of my civil liberty isn't it my 'right' to carry a card if I want to and not carry one if I don't wan't to? If people are given the choice surely no liberties or rights are infringed so what's the problem?
Wheres nik the brief when you need him?

[A Yerbury]

so you will need a bloody good passport, because that one is not going to be flashed quickly at an officer, it's actually going to be carefully processed, (or should be).
you will also need a equally good birth certificate etc.. etc.. the amount of genuinely looking docs that you will need surely makes it more difficult.

more diifficult for joe public, not such a problem however if mr bin laden is footing the bill, again mr average foots the bill and goes about his legal business whilst hardcore types work around it. A forged and "officially" procured passport will be like any other and as for carefully processed? surely you jest! bog standard admin for millions of people unless you assume 007 is going to investigate each one? Im not against id per se but we have plenty in any case, it will cost billions (well about 2 but hey) and they wont stop the very extreme criminals they plan to target. knee jerk politics. France as you know has a history of terrorist campaigns, the only reason they have not seen much unpleasantness (how british) of late has more to do with chiracs stance on military involvement in iraq than the effectiveness of ID cards.

[stef]

agreed 100% on your overall post.
but as i said, i dont beleive ID's are aimed at stopping terrorism. why Blair and his crew use this as leverage, i dont know. maybe he feels that he has better chance this way ?
in my view, ID will takle 'joe public' criminals and every day holigans.
-it will help illegal work to be reduced (behind the bar, at the shop, chippy, whatever... i have NO respect for tax dodgers)
-it will help the police to do their work more effectively by not having to trust joe public on what his real name is.
- It will give them a chance to possibly fine people on the spot for being complete assholes in the streets, without having to waste an hour to lock them up.
and the list goes on...
once all this mess is reduced, they should have free time on their hand to tackle the rest.

and it has some practicality. I cannot recount the number of times i had to provide proof of ID: opening a bank account, mortgage, rent, library, video shop, loans, and since i have been a student for a fair long time, i changed address regularly, which implies having to do it all again.. I really had wished that i had an ID card !
if you dont have a driving license or a fixed address, you are a bit screwed ! ask anyone in the states..

[Richard_S]

through this whole debacle my original point reigns true above all others.

nothing is impossible with impudus and astronomical wealth.

the next 75 years will be a very sordid affair.

[stef]

yes, you are right.. but then, you are the wise old bearded fisherman.

[Richard_S]

nah im just a pretender. one day tho.... :)

[steviej]

MMMmmm, can o' worms detected.................


My twopenneth worth:

The Anti-Terrorist stance is tantamount to scare mongering if you ask me, i.e. if you scare the hoi-polloi enough s/he'll soon be on your side. Having said that, at the last count around 62% of the population were in favour.


And as for all you anti-blanketts/blunketts/blairs.


KNOW YOUR HISTORY...... :p

Michael Howard first announced this hot potato way back in August 1996 when HE was the Home Secretary......................




Me? I don't have a problem...............

[Richard_S]

steve, dont know ya, but like ya.

If were going back to the land before time can u unravel the origins of this little number.....?? off topic (as usual for me :rolleyes: ) but a spot of banter to test ur powers of mind control.

"Mustard comes in jars or tubes. Shaving cream comes in cans. Milk comes in bottles or in cardboard boxes. You see Italians are very passionate people-- especially when they talk-- who make good food but can't get anything else done"

[stef]

.. i dont know what he is ?? what are you??

[steviej]

steve, dont know ya, but like ya.

If were going back to the land before time can u unravel the origins of this little number.....?? off topic (as usual for me :rolleyes: ) but a spot of banter to test ur powers of mind control.

"Mustard comes in jars or tubes. Shaving cream comes in cans. Milk comes in bottles or in cardboard boxes. You see Italians are very passionate people-- especially when they talk-- who make good food but can't get anything else done"

Isn't this the German perception of the US/Canadians & Italy........(Slight give away in the last one) :eek: :D

[Richard_S]

your on the list :cool:

[steviej]

your on the list :cool:

Yep, and I listed that much I've just progressed from 'Eddie the Eagle Angle' to 'Dean Martin Angle'*







*Dean Martin's definition of drunk was, "Your only drunk if you have to hang on when you lie down".

[A Yerbury]

mustard is available in powder or gas form, milk comes from mothers in velour, italians are lovely but insist on bleaching their hair (why???!!!) and turn into grumbling stocky vampires when they hit 34. And whats wrong with tax dodging? the financial would collapse overnight without a black ecconomy.

[stef]

well Al,
I'd have to look into the books to be sure of that !
last time i checked there was about 231 illegal workers in France (but the police was on the case!)
even my dad had to watch his back when he was repairing TVs and videos for friends and relatives !
What sort of society relies on backyard employement to function ?

[Mrs Soup]

No NO and No again - these things will do no good and just cost a lot of money.

Spend the money on some proper policing. We have some of the most onerous stop and search laws in the western world. We don't need anything more.

If I have to carry something with my name and address on it in the same bag as my house keys- Explain to me how this makes me safer?

All those who this system is aimed at will simply work round it.

[Collie_dog]

I.D cards are a way of life out here, without your card and Social security number you don't exsist. Everytime you buy something in the shops you have to prove who you are by flashing your I.D card, when you try to get any sort of utilities for your house you have to reel off your social security number.

And they call America the land of the free!!!

They are a pain, but you need them if you want to buy booze, fags, or go into clubs. On the other hand you do get "loyalty" within states, as if you're a resident (or have a state I.D card) you get cheap meals, half price/free entrance into clubs/shows.

But it only costs $20 to get your I.D card, which is nothing really, it'll be a diffrent matter if you have to pay 100 pounds for the privellage!!

But as everyone has said only decent folk will get cards all the under handed dodgy chaps will have a way of producing false i.d, and no doubt they'll get away with it, as the police spend all their time rounding up normal people who don't want i.d. aaaahhhhh it's gonna be like the council tax thing again!!!!!