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Lucky Dave
14-11-2004, 01:24 PM
Hi guys,

Just tought I'd let you know, my Yellow Thingy with dodgy history bought from ebay is a complete mistory to the boys at Ducati UK, Ducati Italy and my local dealer Cobb and Jagger at Shipley.
I emailed Ducati UK and Ducati Italy with Eng. and Frame numbers and they said they have no records of such numbers and that the format of the numbers was even wrong.
They suggested I go to Cobb and Jagger for them to try to identify it, so off I went yesterday (after taking an hour to get it running properly) and the man at C & J thinks it's a Passo engine because it's got gold coloured rocker covers and the eng. number starts ZDM904. He thinks the frame is Monster but he's not sure. The number means nothing to him.
Anyway, I bought some cam belts off him to fit Passo and I'm hoping for the best.
Is it straight forward job fitting cambelts. No special tools I presume?
Anything to watch out for?
Thanks guys
LD

spacemonkey
14-11-2004, 03:07 PM
From what I gather (I asked my Duke specialist about this enigma on your behalf a coupla weeks back) all the 904cc '900' aircooled 2v twins are the same. Can't help thinking you might have a ringer there...

Lucky Dave
14-11-2004, 08:24 PM
Right.....Let's start from scratch.
The bike is advertised through an internationally recognised auction site.
I meet the guy at his house, and buy the bike, so as far as I am concerned, he has nothing to hide.
When I check the the numbers they don't tally.
I ask Ducati UK and Italy about numbers and they don't know anything about numbers, or they can't be bothered to look?
Go to local dealer and he is confused, because engine "looks like Passo" because of gold rocker box covers, but frame looks like Monster, although number means nothing, but won't commit himself to either.

I want to keep the bike because I actually like it (funny yellow bits an' all) but I don't want to be classed as a receiver of dodgy goods.
Obviously the frame has been "re-stamped" with a number that nobody will recognise therefore can't be traced.
IF ANYONE KNOWS THE ORIGINS OF ENGINE No. "ZDM904A2C008173" I would be very gratefull for a response to this message.
Is there a "Passo" Club?
Won't hold my breath.

LD

Pedro
14-11-2004, 10:51 PM
LD

sorry to hear about this.

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure the frame is not a true Monster, more like an 851 as the foot rest hangers for front and rear footrests are not the same as early Monsters (mines a 93 - if you want some photos to compare, pm me your email addy and I'll snap some shots).

Good luck

Ped

spacemonkey
15-11-2004, 05:10 PM
I don't think it is a Paso frame as they had an alloy beam frame, which was very unusual for a Ducati.

Have you got the vin type identification plate that's possibly near the headstock??

Lucky Dave
15-11-2004, 08:56 PM
Number on frame doesn't resemble anything that Ducati use, this was confirmed by local Duke dealer.
I am also begining to think it's stolen. The number stamped on headstock is FR11958D. looks like someones initials and date of birth and D for Ducati.
Or could it be FOGGARTY RACING 11th example 958cc Ducati?
I have also found out today that it was owned (owned?) by a local dealer that went bust sometime not long ago.
Definately dodgy.

The cam belts fit though, fitted them this afternoon, no probs.

LD

walkingpictures
15-11-2004, 09:13 PM
http://www.ducati.com/contact_us.jhtml?contactus=technical

Might be worth a try


Kimbo

Lucky Dave
15-11-2004, 09:41 PM
Thanks Old Alki Kimbo,
Already tried them and they are baffled also.

LD

walkingpictures
15-11-2004, 09:43 PM
Old Alki

LD

Hey..who's been talking? ;) ....ok..no worries....trying to help mate...good luck

Kimbo

gary tompkins
15-11-2004, 10:05 PM
Number on frame doesn't resemble anything that Ducati use, this was confirmed by local Duke dealer.
I am also begining to think it's stolen. The number stamped on headstock is FR11958D. looks like someones initials and date of birth and D for Ducati.
Or could it be FOGGARTY RACING 11th example 958cc Ducati?
I have also found out today that it was owned (owned?) by a local dealer that went bust sometime not long ago.
Definately dodgy.

The cam belts fit though, fitted them this afternoon, no probs.

LD

Apart from the concern that it could be nicked, the other problem is that in theory it's un-insurable and you would be in effect riding without cover. In the event of a claim made by either you or a 3rd party, I would expect the insurance co. to walk away when they discover the bike has a dodgy history.

Lucky Dave
15-11-2004, 10:55 PM
Never thought of that GT.
The bike is insured, but the only info the Ins. Co. has is the Reg. No. and type of bike.
AHH! Type of bike I said, well log book says 906, but is it?
It's getting worse by the minute.

LD

spacemonkey
16-11-2004, 05:11 PM
Maybe if it is a 906 El Paso engine, the bike could have had a nasty whack, and someone put a dodgy 851 or Monsteur frame with it, et voila? Is it worth doing an HPi check on the info you have?

Richard_S
16-11-2004, 07:24 PM
I'll happily HPI it for you at work tomorrow. Given that you have parted with your cash and know its wonky not sure how beneficial it will be but the offers there. if not I know an evil twisted man who specialises in eyeball removal. either way it will really dent your pride to let it ride. I hate having my pants pulled down :(

The Kevlar Kid
16-11-2004, 07:27 PM
Try getting hold of a book called "DUCATI BELT-DRIVE TWO-VALVE TWINS". I've not seen it but it apparently has a breakdown of all the engine and frame numbers etc and may help with tracking the engine down. It would be a start anyway.

I've not seen your bike, but is it not a custom made frame perhaps, or alternatively an unstamped frame bought for racing? As with kit cars, if the frame was unstamped or homemade then someone would have to give it a number for when it was first registered, so it may well be their initials and date of birth. I had a mate who had a Cobra kit car and his chassis number was the number for the starship enterprise (USS.....)

Have you tried contacting DVLA to see what they can tell you, that said the log book should tell you some stuff. Does it show as new at first registration?

Not much help but the best I can do...

The Kevlar Kid
16-11-2004, 07:28 PM
I hate having my pants pulled down :(

Depends on who's doing the pulling really (and what they do next).....

Richard_S
16-11-2004, 07:37 PM
i would humbly agree. hubba hubba high jinks ; off trots another elf. oops

JMo
16-11-2004, 08:03 PM
Can't help thinking you might have a ringer there...

Aw come on people - stop frightening the new boy x

I would say it's a 'Bitsa' rather than a 'ringer' - and there's nothing wrong with that in itself as long as it's put together right - afterall, AK's bike is an M600 frame, 996 Swingarm, 916 forks, 900SS engine, S4 tank, jesters-hat tail piece (cut down now of course x) and that is no cause for concern...

As for the frame - looks like someone has just welded on a few brackets/lugs to a monster frame to me (again like AK's) but I wouldn't say it is suspicious...

Garish however, yes.

A touch more seriously for a moment - I come across lots of vehicles built from bits in my work for the Land Rover press, the vast majority of which are well put together using a series of interchangable parts together with some custom fabrications... as with this bike, I think the only real question is whether the modification work has been done to a satisfactory standard to be road-worthy, and that whether the DVLA feel it would be more appropriately registered on a Q-plate.

However, Q-plates can be/are an insuarance nightmare, especially for bikes - so be careful how deep you dig in this matter LD.

I do agree with GT in that perhaps you ought to discuss this situation with your insurance company, if only 'hypothetically' - just to make sure you are not left without cover... normally all they will require is an engineer's report on the vehicle.

xxx

Duke John
16-11-2004, 09:03 PM
If it is of any use to you I'll have look over the bike. Can't say I'll be able to shed any light on it but you never know.
I'm only at Rothwell, a mere stone's throw from Ossett.
Cheers
Ducati John.

Lucky Dave
16-11-2004, 09:44 PM
Thanks for all the suggestions lads,
With ref. to HPI, the bloke I bought it off had it HPI'd when he bought it in Jan 2001. albeit with the dodgy frame No.
Obviously everything came back A OKAY because, if that frame number is ficticious it hasn't been reported or recorded stolen.
Welded on bits? Yes I think you might be right. The frame definately looks Monster to me but with front pegs as rearsets and back pegs from some other bike fitted to welded on lugs to rear part of frame.
The frame number on Log Book is different to one on frame. Can I just inform DVLA to change details? Nothing reported stolen to them so I presume no problem?
Insurance. If I get confirmation that it is Monster frame and Paso lump, I then inform Ins. Co. of this surely they will just alter records to suit.
Ducati John. I would be gratefull for the chance to let a Duke buff see it and add your penneth. Willing to come to Rothwell with it Sat. PM if thats OK.
Throw a pub name at me and time and I'll see you there.
Don't worry about knowing if it's me or not, you'll hear it coming from miles away and it will blind you from 100 paces.
Thanks again lads

LD

Duncan
16-11-2004, 10:17 PM
The frame number on Log Book is different to one on frame. Can I just inform DVLA to change details? Nothing reported stolen to them so I presume no problem?

LD


No you cannot change the chassis number on the V5. You can change engine numbers but not frame numbers and this is the heart of your problem. It will need to be re-registered and subject to a vehicle inspection. You would also then need to produce a report from a marque specialist and they would need to verify the frame numbers which they cannot do. Otherwise its a Q plate, vehicle inspection, SVA and if they find ground off numbers then plod may want to xray the frame and find out what it was.

My advice is to return it to the seller and demand a full refund.

Lucky Dave
16-11-2004, 10:28 PM
Ok Duncan I get your drift,
What if I have the bike HPI'd again using the numbers on the log book? and if every thing comes back OK, restamp the frame to original number?
If it doesn't come back Ok will it give me details of where, when etc. history?

LD

Lucky Dave
16-11-2004, 10:36 PM
Richard_S

Hi Rich,
You said you could HPI my bike?

If you would be so kind.

Details

Reg. No. K614 SCU
Frame No. 007917
Eng. No. ZDM904A2C008173

Thanks a bunch mate.

LD

Duncan
16-11-2004, 11:07 PM
Ok Duncan I get your drift,
What if I have the bike HPI'd again using the numbers on the log book? and if every thing comes back OK, restamp the frame to original number?
If it doesn't come back Ok will it give me details of where, when etc. history?

LD

If you restamp the frame then technically you are commiting an offence and could render yourself liable to prosecution. The real Ducati numbers are stamped with loads of pins to make each letter, the same as the engine. not with a single solid stamp therefore any alterations are obvious. The problem isnt yours, go and contact the seller and pay him a visit, he must have known about this when he sold it to you.

JR
16-11-2004, 11:11 PM
You are in a minefield mate. Duncan is right. My last Monster had an error on the V5 -it showed the engine and frame with the same numbers. To cut a long story short I had to have the bike inspected by the DVLA, then they wanted it re registered and asked me to fill in a form 2 ft long . It took the intervention of my Member of Parliament with the DVLA before they would agree that a clerical error had been made on the initial registration. They then corrected the error and issued a correct V5. Of course, when i did the initial AA HPI and gave them the correct engine and frame numbers they would not confirm the bike as AA HPI clear. Only when the DVLA corrected the records would they then issue confirmation.
If you have a DVLA inspection and they find any frame/engine numbers have been tampered/replaced they will refer your details to the local police for a full investigation.


JR

Richard_S
17-11-2004, 12:39 PM
right

Make - Unknown
Model - Unknown

VIN - FR11958D

MOTORCYCLE - YELLOW
FIRST REG 26/01/1993

904 CC

ENGINE NUMBER - ZDM904A2C*008173*

ORIGINAL COLOUR - BLACK
YELLOW 08/10/1998

5 OWNERS

Thats the crux of it ; i can fax if that would help?

Richard_S
17-11-2004, 12:40 PM
Last change of keeper 22/01/2003

despite all the gunf it says its never had a plate change.

Lucky Dave
17-11-2004, 08:47 PM
Thanks Rich,
But that is exactly the same HPI check that the previous owner gave me.
Don't want to be a pain but did you try with VIN 007917
This is what's on the Log book V5.

I've also had another thought.
Why don't I buy a second hand frame with V5 and put all my bits on?
Anyone got one going spare (and cheap?)

LD

stef
17-11-2004, 09:54 PM
there was a cheap 'bent' on ebay a couple of days ago. with logbook.
but all the scallies in the country were after the logbook to do exactely the same thing: transfer the id of the bent frame onto something 'hot'

Lucky Dave
17-11-2004, 10:00 PM
Hmmmm. Come to think of it, who would want to sell a perfectly straight Monnie frame?

LD

A Yerbury
17-11-2004, 10:09 PM
exactly, and you would still have to re register plus a bit of welding. ignore the doom mongers, it will all be fine! just a case of yet another streety with a bit of paper missing...heres an exposed paso, which begs the question who would leave it naked after a costly body panel wrenching spill? answer :no one! as the frame is a bit of a dog.....
good luck with the dvla.
Alex.
then get painting!

Richard_S
18-11-2004, 05:27 PM
Sorry can only search by plate.

Maybe its me but if you had that HPI from the seller and still did the deal whats the problem? It makes it clear that there are issues and surely you took that on board when you parted with your cash. :confused:

Lucky Dave
19-11-2004, 07:23 AM
Rich,
I did the deal and THEN realised the numbers didn't match sometime later.
I'm trying to sort it because I don't want to lose the bike.
By the way, when you say you can only HPI by plate, I presume you mean by registration number?
Therefore the details come back based on all info relating to that reg. number?
So, where have they got that frame number from? According to DVLA the frame number is different?
Or am I just not getting it? :confused:

Richard_S
19-11-2004, 09:03 AM
Our HPI machine uses reg plate info to bring up the details that are logged against it (ie make,model,engine size, finance, total loss info etc etc) Its what we use to check out the P/X cars that we take to make sure that alls OK.

Im not sure which database it is connected to but forms part of large network that incorporates the dvla database. When something is registered using a V55 all the core information against it is used to create the V5 log book. the manufacturer fills in all the basic details and then the form is processed in swansea. Mistakes wig vin numbers etc are common but usually can be amended. In this case the plate seems to be the only piece of genuine history. Even if I could search by vin etc chances are you'll still be chasing your tail as you have no idea of the genuine number to look for.


The HPI check that I have done should match the HPI / DVLA records that you have. The check that I have done is against your reg number and the info above is what is known about it in the record books. If the numbers are different than the ones i have given you and the ones you have I would contact the dvla and ask them for confirmation. I would be surprised if my machine is wrong ; more likely a human typo in way back when.

JMo
19-11-2004, 10:42 AM
Rich - does it not say (or can you find out) what make and model that registration number was originally assigned to back in 1993?

That would at least suggest what the bike was meant to be originally, rather than the Ducati-Suzuki hybrid it is now...

xxx

Richard_S
19-11-2004, 10:55 AM
if it were only that easy. make and model are listed as "unknown". Never ever seen that before :confused:

spacemonkey
22-11-2004, 04:33 PM
Speaking to my wrench monkey the other day, he said that he had used an assortment of legit spares to build a track 916 for a friend on the cheap. The frame was from a bike which he had upgraded the original frame for a better one and thus had a legit frame without a log book. Anyway, after a while the owner wanted to put the bitsa 916 on the road so he could take it to The Ring. A call to the local plod brought one of their vehicle specialists and a chap from the ministry around and after the inspection proved satisfactory the bike was issued with a new frame number which started SVO or something similar, and then it was registered. I don't know whether it gained a Q plate or not, but it was made legit which is the main thing.

ChrisFlanagan
16-06-2007, 09:24 AM
Hi Dave

I have recently moved to Italy and am in the process of getting my six year old Monster registered with Italian plates. Guess what- Ducati say they have no record of my bike VIN numbers in their computer, ergo, the bike does not exist! It has even been suggested that I return the bike to the UK, sell it, and then buy a new bike in Italy.

I'm now going to try and take photos of the numbers and show them to a Ducati dealer in the hope that his computer will recognise the bike.

Did you get anywhere with your numbers?

Chris