HELP ME. Dealer says no go

[celt]

I have recently had the flakey engine paint syndrome. I took bike to my dealer M & S Motorcycles in newcastle and they first of all showed a lack of enthusiasim towards the problem saying they had never heard of that before. They finally agreed to photograph the bike. After a couple of weeks they phoned and said that Ducati wanted an over all condition shot of the bike. As i have garaged and lovingly cared for the bike since i got it 8 months ago i thought that this would be the turning point and my bike would be re-sprayed at the least.

About a week passed and M & S phoned again and told me the answer from Ducati was NO when i asked for the Ducati UK phone number i was told he didnt have it :confused: .

I dont think i can trust the dealer.

i need some help from other members. Can anyone give me advice.
should i now hassle Ducati UK or should i seek legal advice?

Please help as i cannot except that an 8 month old bike should have paint peeling off the underside of the casings.

Terry do you have a contact at Ducati UK who is in the know about this problem.

[berto]

:rolleyes: Sounds like the old don't give a feck attitude from some dealers there chum,and know from my own monster flaking that Ducati want the condition shot to prove it is not a bin that is abused but if it is as good overall condition as you say you shouldn't have a problem(unless the warranty rules have changed again)Anyway get back onto the dealer who should do the chasing for you.If you call me on 0141 3334998 during the week I will get a number at Ducati for you....

[Pit Bitch]

Ducati UK are on 0845 1222 996 or e-mail, I think the address is info@ducatiuk.com. Their details are available on the ducati uk website. Good luck.
P.B.

[PaulS]

The guy you need to contact is Peter Brooking (Marketing and Aftersales Manager) at pfbrooking@ducatiuk.com. I have the same problem - paint flaking (various engine parts and footrest hangers) on a well looked after bike within the warranty period. Even after contacting Peter Brooking I haven't got anywhere yet. I think the next step for me is legal action (or at least the threat of it). This is a very common problem and has happened to many members of this club. Most seem to have (in the past) had the relevant parts replaced under warranty but Ducati seem to have become reluctant to do this (certainly in my case). They are blaming the problem on salt corrosion. I don't ride my bike in conditions where the roads are likely to have been salted so I refute this - I believe it is a manufacturing fault. The wheels on my bike are painted alloy and there is no sign of flaking on them - but then they aren't made or painted by Ducati! Even if it is due to salt corrosion, salted roads are a fact of life in the UK and goods sold in the UK have to be fit for the purpose under the sale of goods act and its various ammendments; i.e. riding on UK roads in UK weather conditions. Good luck!

[kevb]

I am also suffering from flaky paint syndrome; on the oil and water cooler on my s4r. I'm pleased to say that my dealer (Duc Manchester) didn't even question it - just showed them the problem and they have agreed to replace them at the next service. An excellent bunch of peeps at Manchester; I can thoroughly recommend them.

[IpauloGTS]

Sorry but I feel like sounding off!

:mad: I don't give a f**k if the bikes been ridden to death in the foulest of weather and kept outside at night - paint shouldn't peel off engine casings or anywhere else in eight months. Somewhere in the law there is something about a product being fit for the purpose it was designed for and as this is a motorcycle that would include riding in bad conditions ( and then parking it up and going to bed as most of us aren't leading a life of complete leisure).

Maybe Ducati ought to make it a condition of sale that you have a centrally-heated garage and swear that you will towel it down if you are stupid enough to get caught in a short shower.

Unless you've been pouring acid over it they should sort it.

I feel better now!

Paul. :o

[celt]

cheers people i will get in touch with ducati and fight my corner. its good to know there are other people suffering from this problem.

IpauloGTS i feel the same, how can a company charge about £5000 for a bike and when the paint flakes off in 8 months say its not their fault. :mad: :mad: :mad:

im going to isle of mann :twisted: on friday so i will give ducati a ring when i get back on the 11th.

[Bruza]

Was about to post a similar question.

Mine is an 02 with 2 or 3 months left under warrenty. Flaking hangers and engine paint. Have spoken to a couple of monstrosities over the weekend and they had the same problem replaced..... Gotta get that letter away.

glad to hear that some people have managed to get it changed.... that means we all should!!!!

I feel a mass letter coming here......

[kevb]

Unfortunately, 'fit for purpose' has nothing to do with the cosmetics of your bike; it is all about whether it is has been designed correctly, is legal and mechanically sound to ride on the road, which is why your warranty covers everthing except 'consumables'. However, this does not detrtact from what has been written regarding flakey paint and that it shouldnt be happening on a nearly new bike. BUT... it doesnt stop you riding it, i.e. 'fit for purpose'. :mad:

[IpauloGTS]

Point taken Kev...

But to blame flaking paint on a nearly new bike on salt corrosion is a bit lame to say the least. If they have already sorted some other bikes then they really haven't a leg to stand on (morally if not legally). It should be Ducati footing the bill and not down to the whim of the dealer.

Paul.

[kevb]

Couldn't agree more Paul. It is unacceptable for customers who have spent, in the case of a Ducati purchase,, a considerable amount of money. If DP aftermarket parts are covered by a 2 yr guarantee what is the problem. If it aint right then fix it!!!

[Pedro]

I can't remember who told me but I seem to recall that Ducati "unoffically" acknowledged that they had a batch of engines of assorted sizes that suffered this problem. Apparently it's down to preparation of the cases prior to painting.

Either way, they should sort it.

[Bruza]

Emailed Peter Brooking yesterday and he got back to me saying I need to take the bike to a registered Ducati Dealer for it to be assessed.

Shall be doing so at the weekend.

[CK & AK]

seems to be anything from Dec 01 to Sept 02 - and remember they could be in any bike being touted as new from dealers in 2004!

Found my M1000 engine is a 2002 built one :eek: - hence the probs at only 3 weeks old in mid Feb this year.....


C

[Julie]

I have the same problem and e-mailed ducati...this it the responce...

''Dear J Horne

Thank you for your recent email and we are sorry to learn of the problems you are experiencing.

We would be grateful if you could ask your dealer to inspect the damage to your machine whilst it is being serviced. The dealer will then be able to report to the Area After Sales Manager and discuss this matter further once all information has been obtained.

Thank you for your patience and we hope to have this matter resolved very soon.

Kind regards
Ducati UK Ltd''

i will be getting the dealer to look at it next week

[Bruza]

Thing that worries me is it all seems to be '@ the next service or while it is being serviced'.

I'm not getting my babe serviced by any Ducati dealer in my area... no way!

[Julie]

mine is going in next saturday. i'll let you know how i get on

[Will]

It's weird but this only seems to be in the UK - I have scoured the USA site (below) and cannot find a single mention of flakey paint - Have we been sent the duff bikes because they think that we won't complain?

http://www.ducatimonster.org


Will

[slug]

On the advice of other forum members (CK/AK) I complained to my local dealer (Fylde Superbikes/Ducati manchester) and was asked to supply photos of flakey parts (engine cases & oil cooler) and of bikes general condition.

The dealer has got DUK to agree to new casings and oil cooler, the bike goes in for the work to be carried out in 2 weeks time. :)

IMO it is the dealer who should persue this for you especially if they supplied the vehicle in the first place, indeed your contract was with them therefore they should sort it out thats why they are an authorised dealer.

Persevere!

[Gizmo]

Singletrack world web-site (top UK mountain bike site) ran 2 excellent features on consumer rights Sale of Goods Act (http://www.singletrackworld.com/article.php?sid=1250) and Warranty rights (http://www.singletrackworld.com/article.php?sid=1262). Both were written by a trading standards officer and whilst aimed at bicycles the content is relevant.

[Duncan]

That single track web site is excellent and is completely true for the bike.

1. Just because is a motor vehicle and it still goes, doesnt mean the aesthetics dont have to be fit for purpose. If a motorcycle cant take a few months of winter weather then its a bloody bad thing.
2. Your contract is with the dealer, therefore pursue them. If all (or even part) of your bike was paid for on credit card or HP then your contract is also with those companies. This considerably strengthens your bargaining power as they are jointly liable and will lean on the dealer to get this put right. Write a letter and copy it to all parties involved. Explain what you want and why and give them a reasonable timescale to put it right. Even though you do not have a contract directly with Ducati, drag them into the issue and copy them correspondence. Explain that this is under the sale and supply of goods act.
3. Your warranty is IN ADDITION to your statutory rights and not in place of them. Warranty often entitles you to less than your rights in law and its my experience that dealers try to fob you off with clauses in your warranty excluding finish items. Do not accept this. You have far more rights in law than most warranties and the exceptions are used as a smokescreen to get rid of you.
4. Be prepared to take all parties to the small claims court. It rarely goes this far but when I have had occasion to go there you get a fair hearing and costs are minimal. I had to threaten Triumph and a dealer with this a few years back, the job got done and very rapidly.
5. Dont be afraid to visit your local trading standards office, they are there to help you. If you go that route and make a formal complaint, they will follow it up on your behalf. Its best not to go this way if you can sort it amicably with the dealer because you still have to use them for other things and its a bit uncomfortable walking in somewhere that you have threatened / sued etc.

[Little Monster]

Great summary Duncan. Not seen original poster on this thread for a while so praps he's been buried in concrete by his newcastle dealership! :eek:

Any judge would be appalled i'm sure at an 8 month life for paintwork.

Just a few points (cos not wanting to duplicate the good advice so far)

1 - i've never bought a bike or car new!!! but do Dukes/bikes in general come with paintwork warranty at all like some cars do? and if so, do they limit it to tank and body work but not frame and tank etc?

2 - most people will find they have some sort of limited funding for legal advice somewhere - usually attached to home insurance, credit card, car / bikeinsurance, travel insurance etc although it's usually the first 2 that would relate to a consumer dispute such as this.

3 - someone said something about consumables ..... don't let the dealership tell you paint is a consumable cos it aint.

go get em! :twisted:

[CK & AK]

Good Idea Little M

answer to 1 - is no, there is no painwork warranty - apparently it is just mechanical........ :mad:

2: possibly

3:as you say - Definately not!

C

[slug]

Contrary to my recent post....
The way I understand the single track article is that the warranty is a seperate contract which is between the purchaser/owner and the manufacturer. The dealer acts as an "agent" of the manufacturer. So it would appear that you do need to persue the maunufacturer and/or find an "agent" who is sympathetic and will champion your cause.

In my case the dealer I am using did not supply the bike but they are dealing with the warranty issue. Apparantly they will do the work and then bill DUK for the parts and labour.

Unoffically I have heard of a number of Ducati dealers who are currently dealing with similar issues. DUK and the dealers are not stupid they can see the bigger picture and they know there is a problem and they are rectifying the faults, IMO they have therefore acknowledged the problems and have set a precedent by agreeing to fix other bikes.
You should be able to state this precedent and get the work done.

Dont give up

[PaulS]

Whilst Ducati UK are well aware of the wide spread nature of this problem it is not true that they are sorting it out for every body. I've had my bike photographed by a Ducati rep and they have refused to do anything. I've complained to Peter Brooking (Marketing and Aftersales manager) and got nowhere. This was his response -

"I am sorry that you are unhappy with our decision regarding the corrosion on
your machine. As you may be aware, as requested by the MOC, I made a
statement some time ago on behalf of Ducati UK relating to this subject. I
would like to re-iterate our position by quoting from the statement:

'As a general rule, in common with other manufacturers, corrosion is not
covered by the official warranty. As you will appreciate, there are numerous
reasons why corrosion may occur, including exposure to high levels of salt
during winter, damaged components, lack of care by previous owners and so
forth'.

Having reviewed the photographs taken by our Area Manager, we are of the
opinion that your machine appears to have been subject to high levels of
road salt that have not been removed before damage has occurred.

Accordingly, we are not in a position to replace the relevant parts under
the terms of the manufacturer warranty."

Obviously I am very annoyed about this. As stated in my earlier post I don't ride my bike in weather conditions where it would have been "subject to high levels of road salt". I am now considering legal action.

[slug]

I dont think it is.
Apologies for sounding like a barrack room lawyer but...
The point is that the paint has flaked off. The paint is not just there to look good it is there to form a barrier against corrosion, otherwise why paint anything. IMO the paint is not up to the job and is not fit for purpose.
Once the paint has gone then you will naturally get corrosion.

So, in a nutshell the effect is corrosion the cause is flakey paint.

[DesmoDog]

Well for my tuppence.
1. I agree with slug - your contract was with them therefore they should sort it. Regardless of authorised or not.
2. Paint is both protective and is a decoration (otherwise we'd all be riding darks and chromos), to go on record saying their warranty does not cover paint is neither here nor there. Consumer Protection Act 1994 as amended should sort you out there.
3. It's amazing just how quick companies act when they receive a summons to the small claims court.

Humpf!

[NBs]

Yeah, forget the warranty, it seems to be irrelevant in this case.
Work on the subject from consumer law... if the dealer you bought it from says you have to go to Ducati, remind him that he's responible to you and Ducati are responsible to him - it's the law! Also, if you're quoted that "fit for purpose" crap, you might want to suggest your dealer gets up to date on the Sale and Supply of Goods Act (1979) cos it was ammended by the Supply of Goods and Services Act (1996) to remove "fit for purpose" and replace it with "merchantable quality", and merchantable quality includes cosmetics cos that's why you bought a monser instead of a c90!!

As Slug says, the paint's primary function is a corrosion barrier, and road salt shouldn't do anything harmful to it.

This falkey paint syndrome seems to be certainly a manufaturing fault. If the dealer don't want to play the game just invite them for a drink in the small claims court, it's a dead easy process and it probably won't even get that far... solicitors are not allowed so there's no danger of being beaten by the dealers expensive know-it-all lawer, the case just gets discussed with an arbitrator. A bit of research and a few quotes from comsumer acts will almost certainly keep it out of court though...

good luck with it!

nb

[Little Monster]

Where's Nik the Brief of this thread? who are the other lawyers here? i can't be the only one. are they all riding harleys??

don't let the warranty confuse things over the statutory rights and Sale of Goods and Services legislation. Think of it this way, you could buy a car/bike without a warranty, it wouldnt mean you had no rights - they supplement then. So, i've not seen any examples of the damage described but i would think that corrosion and flaking are quite easy to tell the difference between.

small claims court is a good idea. not entirely right to say solicitors 'aren't allowed' in there tho. they don't get PAID in small claims court by the opponent if they win. so, most don't use them. a company might but a company is also more likely just to buy off the claim.

i'm thinking, small claims court, get a report from a reputable mechanic to provide evidence of what has caused the problem if not too expensive, photos, witness evidence of reputable friends to testify to the sort of conditions in which you ride - should do it. you might not need to do all that tho. seriously, check your home, credit card, bike etc insurance to see if you have legal expenses insurance. they often give 30 mins free phone advice. used wisely that time can be very valuable.

ck and ak seemed to know the year of engine this affected. do you guys have more info on this? an article somewhere or something?

[Duncan]

Or you could just put the matter into the hands of your local trading standards complaining about the dealer and Ducati.
Ducati will be on a home authority scheme which means that any other compalints will also be known about by their local office and channelled through them and they may be able to resolve this for you. Trading standards officers are a great source of free advice too.

If that fails then the small claims court is the place to go.

Remember if any of it was paid on credit card or HP, then they are also liable and make sure you drag those companies into it just to **** the dealer off. The dealer sells loads of stuff via credit card and HP and will not want them witholding monies due to him because there is a potential claim so drag them in for the hell of it.

[J.P]

Had a look under my bike at the weekend and noticed some really bad paint flake at the bottom of the low-sump. Bike was brand new in July last year and though I've covered nearly 5,000 miles since, it's really is a pi**er for it to be so bad so quickly.
And I was very good at washing it down and had it pre-sprayed with ACF-50 and always used scottoiler F-365 on it after washing.
I'll be calling P & H about it very soon.

[JerryXt]

mine has a small amount too. I've been told to talk to Ducati direct to start the process.

I might get the crank balanced and a lightened flywheel while they've got it apart. Not that it needs it, but it would be rude not to.

[J.P]

There's always something you can do right.

[YoungDucS4R]

Here's a more recent thread on exactly the same subject.

http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=25352

I persued a claim for the flaking engine paint and got Ducati to agree to renew the effected casings. But they did state it was a "gesture of goodwill" rather than an admission of fault

G.

[Will]

No matter what the dealers or Ducati say - this has been a problem with the modern (since at least 2002, probably earlier) Ducati air-cooled engine.

They ARE prone to flaky engine paint. I am surprised (well actually probably not) that this problem is still going on 6 years or more later.

My 2002 620ie suffered from this (after only 6,000 miles or so); they replaced the engine casings under warranty. I emailed Ducati UK directly and politely explained the situation to them. They really had no choice but to co-operate as it was obvious to the dealer who inspected the bike that it had been immaculately maintained, so it was unequivocally a manufacturing or design issue.

Many people have had this problem, but I suspect that not enough people complain so it is still cheaper for Ducati to ignore the problem than to fix it.

If you bike is still under warranty and you can clearly demonstrate that the bike has not be subject to adverse conditions than you should have a case.

One point that is worth mentioning in Ducati's favour is that the front of the engine is exposed to all the crap, stones etc, thrown up by the front wheel and you would really need some tough paint to survive that for thousands of miles. So if the flakiness starts right at the front under the starter motor then Ducati might reason that it is just normal wear and tear.

[YoungDucS4R]

For those who are not lucky enough to get their casings changed under warranty, you might be interested in clutch/primary casing on Fleabay today:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110232655138

If it fits your bike, could be a good buy.

G.

[gary tompkins]

A full belly pan helps paint survive better - so stone chips must be an issue. My solo has had a monza pan fitted from almost new & the paint's still very good. The trike's naked engine by comparison is a right mess - and it's done a lot less miles. Post 2001/2002 bikes seem to suffer from this problem a lot more.