Shell Optimax

[Will]

An observation.

I have noticed that when using Shell Optimax (97 octane) in my 620ie there is a significantly larger amount of soot deposited around the end of the silencers then when using Q8 super unleaded (98 octane).

The soot deposit is very dry, not at all oily.

Why does that happen? Surely no soot is better? What dodgy additives are in Optimax?

Will

[steviej]

Rind SHELL an' ask 'em................:twisted:


No, seriously though. I spent a few hours today polishin' Il Monst...
& I must admit, since using Optimax, I've notice the same thing.



'spose I'll be ringin' SHELL as well then...........................:eek:

[thesaxman]

Originally posted by steviej
Rind SHELL an' ask 'em

would that be bacon rind by any chance??


:D :D :p

[steviej]

Originally posted by thesaxman
would that be bacon rind by any chance??


:D :D :p


oooppppps:D

[snakey]

you could try their web site

[spacemonkey]

Ask Quentin Wilson; he seems to be their prophet of choice...

[snakey]

Originally posted by snakey
you could try their web site






re my suggestion - found their web site, sent an e-mail as to 'optimax' sooting up the exhausts & also the plugs and cant get a mail to them just keeps being bounced back! Will try phoning them

Pete.

[LeMarsu]

August 2001 Shell introduced Shell Optimax, which with an octane rating of 98 RON is the UK's highest octane petrol.

http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?siteId=uk-en&FC2=&FC3=/uk-en/html/iwgen/shell_for_motorists/fuels/classic_cars/faq_classic_cars.html#4

maybe the "soot deposit " is just carbon due to detergent used in fuel these days ??

[paul620sie]

Question.... why are you using Optimax?

The bike is "tuned" to run on 95RON fuel, running on 98RON has no benefit as it hasn't got active knock control on the engine.

[Will]

Paul writes: "Question.... why are you using Optimax?

The bike is "tuned" to run on 95RON fuel, running on 98RON has no benefit as it hasn't got active knock control on the engine."


I say:

For no other reason than Shell is the closest garage to my house and Optimax is supposed to 'clean' one's engine.

Maybe Optimax produces a lot of soot as part of the normal combustion process and cleans itself out of the engine and onto my exhaust outlets - or maybe the other petrol that I use either creates lots of soot and it stays in the engine or it doesn't make soot - hmmmmmm......

The question is does Optimax produce more soot than 'normal' petrol? and if so is this a good or bad thing? I have left a message on the Shell Ask The Expert forum - but they haven't replied yet - I think that I have confused them!

Will

[paul620sie]

I work in engine testing, we run shell fuels; 91RON, 95RON, 98RON (not Optimax) & Optimax (which we had tested - and it wasn't much better than 95RON!).

We only measure Soot (particulates) from Diesel engines so i can't comment on the soot content of exhaust using different fuels.

Exhaust Soot isn't particularly hamful to you bike, it the desposites on the back of the valves and inside the combustion chamber that matter. The detergents in the fuel help keep these clean and I suspect Optimax is better than Tesco's (for example) but I havn't any test data to back it up.

Lets see what Shell say when (if) they reply.

[DesmoDog]

Originally posted by Will
Paul writes: "Question.... why are you using Optimax?

The question is does Optimax produce more soot than 'normal' petrol? and if so is this a good or bad thing? I have left a message on the Shell Ask The Expert forum - but they haven't replied yet - I think that I have confused them!

Will

As a one time tree hugger I would say that any soot deposit is a bad thing, possibly not for the bike, but for the good people of your home town - particulates are bad for lungs. Maybe you should go to the 95ron stuff. Or if you commute, choose a route through places where you really don't like people:eek:

[Will]

Still no reply from Shell - I think that Optimax produces more soot than other petrols - which cannot be a good thing. But I need Shell to answer the question - perhaps Optimax is very good at keeping the engine clean but at the same time isn't so good for the environment? Hmmmmm... if this is the case then perhaps Shell would want to keep quiet about it!

[spacemonkey]

"A doo RON, RON, RON, a doo RON, RON..."

Particulates. Hmm... You know those lungs they used to show on TV that were thick and black with ****e supposedly from smoking?
Well, of all the smokers I have had the pleasure of examining, I have not found this to be the case. However, anyone living in large towns/cities have LOTS of black particulate deposits throughout their lungs, probably from diesel fumes. What I do not know is how long it takes to clear this from your pulmonary system once you leave the big smoke.
And another thing-avoid living on Indian food. Just about every Indian type I have to work on has TERRIBLE arteries and dies of circulatory problems in their 50's or 60's and absolutely reeks of spices when opened up. So the only conclusion is that traditional Indain nosh is very bad for you over the years. So don't do it... Japanese food is the best.

[nik_the_brief]

Aaargh! That's terrible news Spacemonkey - we live on curries in our house. You'll be telling us that Guinness is bad for us next!

tried that sushi stuff and it tastes of raw fish - eurgh!

Think I'll stick to my curries and live slightly shorter.

[spacemonkey]

But happier...

[NewMon]

Who wants to live forever anyway...

I heard yesterday that walking dogs is very dangerous - what is the world coming to?

Back to the petrol debate... I've worked in a few fuel depots in my time (I get all the best gigs) and the thing you notice very quickly is that all the tankers fill up from the SAME source! They might stuff a few "additives" in out of a barrel but the fuel is the same going to Tescos or Shell.

I once had an XR3i (I know...) and someone persuaded me that I needed Shell super-duper or whatever it was called (80's). That fcked the valve seals (seats?). It did it so quickly, it was still in warranty luckily.

I have always bought bog-standard petrol since...

[paul620sie]

Shell super-duper in the 80's was "Formula Shell" ..... it failed to lubribricate the valve seats as people found out when thier engines went phut.

New-Mon is right, all fuel comes from the same depots, its just the additives that are different for each "brand". But its the additives determine the fuels cleaning and lubricating properties.

[snakey]

For an answer from shell for over a week now, also tried phoning and not getting through, seems they are not interested in customer relations/service - oh well back to standard old sainsburys fuel then.

Pete.

[JR]

Snakey,

What number are you ringing Joe Shell on? I worked for the company for 30 years in front line oil terminal operations and customer relations/service product quality had number one priority.
The freephone for the Customer Service Centre is 0800 731 8888
or switchboard 0161 499 4000 - ask for customer services. The boss of that outfit used to be a gentleman called Dave Foster, but cant confirm if he is still in situ.
My bike runs best on Shell Fuel, my van is best on Esso diesel, whilst my car runs about the same on Shell BP or Esso. I try not to use supermarket fuel, so you pays yer money and takes your choice.

JR

[DesmoDog]

why not supermarket fuel?

[JR]

Desmodog,
I try not to use supermarket fuels because I have compared performace/mpg on each of my vehicles and so try to stick with the Brand of fuels that give me the best results for each engine.
I also know that I can purchase Esso/Shell/BP fuels often 3 or 4 pence per litre cheaper than Supermarkets thus keeping my costs down.

JR

[JJCool]

HEllo, I used to run a Bimota SB6 (GSXR1000 engine) and a ZXR750, Both where old biks, And i used to add RedEX Lead replacement to my bikes, as recomended by my mechanic for older bikes, the diffrence was hudge (well may be a little) engine ran noticable smother/quiter and yes i got deposits at the back of the pipes.... so it must be an addative thing....... When the old leaded fuel was around the same thing used to happen on my road bikes then, good fuelling would be dark grey but not moist..., I use, 97 BP Unleaded, then add to ever 2nd tank redex, it seems to work, For me that is....

[Richard_S]

I decided to treat myself to some of this at the weekend and have noticed that I seem to be growling louder than usual. Ive never used it before (dont go in for those gimmicky things normally). Am I being a tit or is it possible that this stuff increases the volume from ones pipes? :confused:

[Fosse Foxfight]

An observation.

I have noticed that when using Shell Optimax (97 octane) in my 620ie there is a significantly larger amount of soot deposited around the end of the silencers then when using Q8 super unleaded (98 octane).

The soot deposit is very dry, not at all oily.

Why does that happen? Surely no soot is better? What dodgy additives are in Optimax?

Will

Aaaah found this one by accident...thought everybdoy knew this :rolleyes:
OK, its basic hydrocarbon chemistry and petrol manufature. In order to get the petrol up to a RON of 97-98 "aromatics" are added. Aromatics burn leaving slightly "sootier" deposits....nothing more sinister or complicated than that really....petrol is a very uncomplicated sorta stuff when alls said and done.

Ta ra

[Will]

Aaaah found this one by accident...thought everybdoy knew this :rolleyes:
OK, its basic hydrocarbon chemistry and petrol manufature. In order to get the petrol up to a RON of 97-98 "aromatics" are added. Aromatics burn leaving slightly "sootier" deposits....nothing more sinister or complicated than that really....petrol is a very uncomplicated sorta stuff when alls said and done.

Ta ra

Yes but that does not explain why Shell Optimax produces more soot than equivalent high octane petrol such as Q8 Super unleaded. Shell have never replied to this question. Their website 'expert' only seems to be able to answer questions with bland meaningless statements like 'Optimax makes your engine run better' and other such marketing bollocks - give them a simple technical question like mine and they seem either unable or unwilling to give an intellligent answer - makes one rather suspicious!

Will

[Fosse Foxfight]

Yes but that does not explain why Shell Optimax produces more soot than equivalent high octane petrol such as Q8 Super unleaded. Shell have never replied to this question. Their website 'expert' only seems to be able to answer questions with bland meaningless statements like 'Optimax makes your engine run better' and other such marketing bollocks - give them a simple technical question like mine and they seem either unable or unwilling to give an intellligent answer - makes one rather suspicious!

Will

Will, the simple answer is that the Q8 equivalent is probably not as loaded as the Optimax. Logic dictates that adding octane or octane equivalents will produce more carbon deposits, my guess is that Optimax is loaded as far as it can go.......and as for expecting an oil company to give you an answer about the composition of their fuel is like asking God to prove his existence....t'aint gonna happen....besides the twat who sits and answers questions on the Shell web page probably cant even spell hyrdcranobo :p
Best thing to do is just decide which you like. Personally Ive never tried the Q8 stuff but from what I know the generic "premium unleadeds" are not quite the mix that Optimax is. I got into Optimax by sticking it in my BMW 3 series which is a wallowey slug, but cheers up immensely with Optimax.
ta ra me ducks

Sean

[Will]

Will, the simple answer is that the Q8 equivalent is probably not as loaded as the Optimax. Logic dictates that adding octane or octane equivalents will produce more carbon deposits, my guess is that Optimax is loaded as far as it can go.......and as for expecting an oil company to give you an answer about the composition of their fuel is like asking God to prove his existence....t'aint gonna happen....besides the twat who sits and answers questions on the Shell web page probably cant even spell hyrdcranobo :p
Best thing to do is just decide which you like. Personally Ive never tried the Q8 stuff but from what I know the generic "premium unleadeds" are not quite the mix that Optimax is. I got into Optimax by sticking it in my BMW 3 series which is a wallowey slug, but cheers up immensely with Optimax, but to be honest Ive never put any in the Duc as I dont have a Shell station nearby

ta ra me ducks

Sean

So the answer is - if I have read all this right - is that Shell Optimax does really produce more soot that other equivalent octane fuels. Well I as far as I can tell it does, from looking at the deposits around the end of my 620 Silencers. Im my humble opinion, everything else being equal, more soot is not a good thing for either the bike or the environment - so I will avoid Shell Optimax.

Doesn't it make a bit of a mockery of their claims of it's superior cleaning properties when in fact it produces more 'crap' than standard fuels? I suppose it's OK as long as that 'crap' doesn't stay inside the engine but is dumped into silencers or the environment instead!!


Will - the cynic :-))

[Fosse Foxfight]

So the answer is - if I have read all this right - is that Shell Optimax does really produce more soot that other equivalent octane fuels. Well I as far as I can tell it does, from looking at the deposits around the end of my 620 Silencers. Im my humble opinion, everything else being equal, more soot is not a good thing for either the bike or the environment - so I will avoid Shell Optimax.

Doesn't it make a bit of a mockery of their claims of it's superior cleaning properties when in fact it produces more 'crap' than standard fuels? I suppose it's OK as long as that 'crap' doesn't stay inside the engine but is dumped into silencers or the environment instead!!


Will - the cynic :-))

Will, "soot" as you call it is merely a carbon deposit and as such is neither a bad thing or a good thing. Its worthwhile taking your plug out after running it on choke for a few minutes and see how black n "sooty" it is. Working logically, it could be the case that your 620 is unable to combust completely all the fuel that Optimax is giving it, as the chances are your machine has been set up for standard RON95 petrol. Secondly it would be just as easy to say that the Optimax is proably cleaning out the carbon deposited by the Q8 fuel :p
But the environment arguement is rather tenuous, "soot" "crap" whatever you want to call it is only hazardous to human respiration if it is below 10 microns in diameter, which I think you will find is only the case with fuels in the kerosene distillation range (diesels)
Really for your 620 you should be using standard unleaded anyway.

ta ra

[A Yerbury]

excuse my small science brain fosse but would more carbon not indicate a bigger/stronger bang being produced? If only I found this stuff interesting when I was younger! and what actually is octane?
AY

[A Yerbury]

ahhh so high octane is only really significant if one is using a high compression engine. I think I get it now, unmodded monster engines not being high compression.

[Scotty]

2p from me here (once again i could well be talking crap)

i heard (and kinda experianced) that running the higher octane petrol (gasoline) makes the engin run hotter which is a good thing in winter on the air cooled models smoother running and all that

the making petrol upto the 98 ron with additives errm i read in a book somewhere that the Research Octane Number is determined on a test engin with variable compression with the calibration scale being set with iso-octane as 100 , though i guess the additives supress detonation hence increace the RON rating though aparently not very consistantly hence the 'garenteed' minimum RON ratings they give

id run the higher octane petrol cos ya get more power per unit volume though i admit i dont notice it on me s4 but i did on us old 600

[Scotty]

excuse my small science brain fosse but would more carbon not indicate a bigger/stronger bang being produced? If only I found this stuff interesting when I was younger! and what actually is octane?
AY

Octane is C8H18

CH3-(CH2)6-CH3

[Fosse Foxfight]

excuse my small science brain fosse but would more carbon not indicate a bigger/stronger bang being produced? If only I found this stuff interesting when I was younger! and what actually is octane?
AY
carbon is just a by-product of combustion and if its black then it would indicate that not all the "fuel" available is being burnt.
Octane is C8, a hydrocarbon......C1 is Methane, C2 Butane, C3 Ethane etc hydrocarbons at standard conditions ie 20degC at ambient pressure are not liquid until C5 which is the most important...Pentane, constituting about 55-70% of petrol (gasoline) and then some Hexane (C6) Heptane (C7) and creeping into C8 Octane...within these groups there are masses of other compounds, and without a complete thesis on hydrocarbon chemistry.........anyway....the best one to burn for quick powerful combustion is pentane....sorry the best are the C1-C4 but at standard conditions are gases....hence LPG....ok petrol.....pure Pentane when combusted at pressure "knocks" hence the addition of the higher number h/cs...in particular C8 Octane....which basically tempers the burn and reduces/eliminates knock.....but the higher up the carbon chain you get the more carbon "soot" is produced. My guess would be that Optimax is something like a very high level of pentane and then some hekane and then a good eal of one of the aromatics...which, who knows, but youll notice that the smell of RON95 is significantly different from that of RON97......indicating the use of aromatic hydrocarbons...............Id better stop...

Sean

[Scotty]

so how do lpg car's stop detonation ?

[Scotty]

do lpg motors inject liquified gas into the engin then ?

[A Yerbury]

well I have used both over winter and found hotter sparks ngk8 as opposed to 9s made more difference. pro fst helped but surely as thats an octane booster it is in theory similar to using optimax?

[Will]

Will, "soot" as you call it is merely a carbon deposit and as such is neither a bad thing or a good thing. Its worthwhile taking your plug out after running it on choke for a few minutes and see how black n "sooty" it is. Working logically, it could be the case that your 620 is unable to combust completely all the fuel that Optimax is giving it, as the chances are your machine has been set up for standard RON95 petrol. Secondly it would be just as easy to say that the Optimax is proably cleaning out the carbon deposited by the Q8 fuel :p
But the environment arguement is rather tenuous, "soot" "crap" whatever you want to call it is only hazardous to human respiration if it is below 10 microns in diameter, which I think you will find is only the case with fuels in the kerosene distillation range (diesels)
Really for your 620 you should be using standard unleaded anyway.

ta ra

It is not the Optimax cleaning out the deposits from the Q8 petrol because I used to run the bike almost exclusively on Optimax and thought that the deposits were normal until I changed to other brands - that is what got me thinking about why the 'extra' deposits when using Optimax.

By the way I am a professional Electronics Engineer although I did start off doing a degree in Chemistry so do have some understanding of the chemistry invovled. My guess is that these combustion by products are the result of the 'extra' additives that Shell add to Optimax other than the 'normal' octane enhancing components that all higher octane fuels have. And I am not convinced that these 'extras' are actually of any benefit to the user at all and in fact might be detrimental.
My cynical side suspects that it is just a way for Shell to differentiate their product from the others and so justify a higher price, the rest is pure Marketing hype in an effort to produce a unique selling point. There is certainly no increase in 'performance' when using this stuff.

I suspect that Shell marketing people haven't moved on very much since the days of "Put a Tiger in your Tank".

I think that it will be safer to not to use Optimax just in case the extra deposits are at best just gumming up my silencers and catalytic converter.


Will

[Fosse Foxfight]

so how do lpg car's stop detonation ?

Two ways. either thru lower compression or as with most duel fuel cars, very rich mixture. Duel fuel LPG cars return about 60% of the mpg that gasoline gives.

[Fosse Foxfight]

do lpg motors inject liquified gas into the engin then ?

Yes, the components in LPG are pressurised to keep them in a liquid state.

[Fosse Foxfight]

There is certainly no increase in 'performance' when using this stuff.

I suspect that Shell marketing people haven't moved on very much since the days of "Put a Tiger in your Tank".

I think that it will be safer to not to use Optimax just in case the extra deposits are at best just gumming up my silencers and catalytic converter.


Will
Errr, there is probably no increase in performance on your 620 because its not set up for 97-98RON fuel Will. Of the people I've come across who use Optimax in varying vehicles there is no doubt a noticeable increase in power and indeed smoothness and my 900 which has been bored out to 944 with higher compression pistons and Dynojet Stage 2 and Leo Vince pipes reacts very noticeably to its fuel grade.
Realistically you should stick to a stock 95RON fuel.

[Fosse Foxfight]

I
I suspect that Shell marketing people haven't moved on very much since the days of "Put a Tiger in your Tank".


Will
Errrr, they've moved on quite a bit since then......the only problem being Tiger in Your Tank was Esso. Keep up Will :rolleyes:

[Will]

Errr, there is probably no increase in performance on your 620 because its not set up for 97-98RON fuel Will. Of the people I've come across who use Optimax in varying vehicles there is no doubt a noticeable increase in power and indeed smoothness and my 900 which has been bored out to 944 with higher compression pistons and Dynojet Stage 2 and Leo Vince pipes reacts very noticeably to its fuel grade.
Realistically you should stick to a stock 95RON fuel.

But the point is that that they makes claims along the lines of "Better performance" and "Cleaner Running" which are totally meaningless - like most marketing!!

Will

[Will]

Errrr, they've moved on quite a bit since then......the only problem being Tiger in Your Tank was Esso. Keep up Will :rolleyes:

I know it was Esso - what I'm saying is that the basic marketing of these comapnies hasn't changed - the aim is to different their products by making pseudo scrientific claims in order to justify a higher price. But what's worse is that sometimes the product actually turns out to less good than the ones it claims to better than! In my experience with Shell I think that this is certainly the case.


So what are the answers to my original questions.

1. Why does optimax produce more 'soot' than other equivalent octane rating petrols in my bike.

2. Is it doing the bike any harm?


I don't for one minute expect to getter 'better performance' and a 'cleaner engine' - whatever they are supposed to mean - even though shell claim that their customers will.

If the answers to the questions are easy and not embarassing to Shell - why won't their 'expert' answer them.

Will

[Fosse Foxfight]

But the point is that that they makes claims along the lines of "Better performance" and "Cleaner Running" which are totally meaningless - like most marketing!!

Will
Shell would be unable to make these claims if they werent true. It just may not be too noticeable on your 620, which isnt meant to be used with a RON97-98 fuel Will.

[Fosse Foxfight]

So what are the answers to my original questions.

1. Why does optimax produce more 'soot' than other equivalent octane rating petrols in my bike.

2. Is it doing the bike any harm?



Will
We've already told you why, cause it contains more aromatics and the chances are your bike isnt using them all.
No its not harming your bike, but it is a waste of money as your bike isnt meant to run on premium fuel.

Ta ra

Sean

[paul620sie]

Will,

Sean is right. You are wasting yr money paying the extra to buy optimax for your 620.

Paul

[Will]

Shell would be unable to make these claims if they werent true. It just may not be too noticeable on your 620, which isnt meant to be used with a RON97-98 fuel Will.

If you take a look at the Optimax website you will see that their 'expert' admits that they do not have any real comparative evidence that Optimax increases 'performance' over other fuels - and that the expectation of an acceleration increase of 1.5% (whatever that might mean - no conditions were specified) is an extrapolation from some very flimsy and dubious other test results!!!

It really is laughable - but they try to convince us to buy this stuff whatever octance rating fuel ones engine is designed/setup for. If you use the right weasel words you can claim whatever you wish!

Will

[A Yerbury]

c'mon I remember the oil actually going into the spanner! dont tell me its all lies!! theyre all really really good for the enviroment too these days, bps new logo is a flower.

[Will]

Will,

Sean is right. You are wasting yr money paying the extra to buy optimax for your 620.

Paul

Sean is right. You are wasting yr money paying the extra to buy optimax for your 620.

Paul - does all petrol that you buy on the forecourt always meet its stated octane rating?

How accurately is a typical engine setup?

If these two factors were to both work against you then it might be better to buy a higher rated fuel to avoid any chance of 'knocking'. What damage is done to an engine if it is on the verge of 'knocking' for any length of time?

Will

[Scotty]

alreet then if you did have your bike setup to run on 98 ron mon pon if you then ran on 95 would you be killing your engine with detonation is it ?

hummm is pinking the same as detonation ?

[Will]

alreet then if you did have your bike setup to run on 98 ron mon pon if you then ran on 95 would you be killing your engine with detonation is it ?

hummm is pinking the same as detonation ?

Yes pinking is the same as detonation. I don't know how much or how quickly damage will occur if 'pinking' starts.

The new BMW R1200GS can run on crap fuel without damage cos it has a more sophisticated EMS than the Monster and so can detect the onset of detonation and adjust the timing accordingly to avoid damge.

Will

[944]

If your have highly tuned engine you can kill it very quickly if you use too low octane, usually the ems has a fail safe.

I can only use high octane fuel in my tuned Porsche turbo, 95 ron sets off the knock sensor and returns the revs to tick over and feels like you have stamped you foot on the brake just as you reach peak power!

High octane in a Ducati is unnecessary......unless you fit a turbo.

I use octane booster in my commando, You could get 5* in 1972.

Mike

[jerry]

I recently had to use 91 octane fuel in my S4 as 95 is getting very scarce here in thailand it runs OK up to 110mph then gets rough . when I can get 95 octane it runs fine but soon there wont be any 95 octane fuel only GASOHOL 95 which Ducati says I must not use , so It may be the end of the S4 if I cant get it to run on the fuels available.

Jerry

[Guzzirider]

Happy to put cheap fuel in my Ducati- runs fine on normal unleaded but I can feel the difference on my Guzzi which has Fast By Ferracci High comp pistons- can pink a bit on normal 95 octane- but runs sweet on V Power- even better with the 100 octane stuff they sell in Europe!

[Scotty]

you tried an octane booster then Jerry ?

[Nickj]

The particulates are fairly permanent once they're in your lungs I think, suggested to be very bad for kids with asthma although the loose atmospheric aromatics are probably just as bad if not worse.

IF the fuel has more additives to 'clean' the engine then you'd expect the carbony stuff to peak then stop or tail off. It's not just washing off the microscopic film of oil that the piston leaves behind as it drops down the bore is it? That would be a bad thing I'd be thinking and account for a continuous stream of crud out of the exhaust.
You have to suspect that most of this is a bit of a gimmick really, sure some effect but if it was so fantabulous for engines why supply anything else?
Might also be a different burn rate in the fuel which could well .

[jerry]

you tried an octane booster then Jerry ?

cant get them here anymore ,illegal as they want everone to use gasohol and also extremely expensive 1 little bottle 200ml was £23.
Ducati in USA says Gasohol is OK as the yanks use it but Ducati says no no no and when my wife tried it in her Honda Rebel it destryed the carbs , i had to rebuild them.

Jerry

[Scotty]

so will you be lowering the compression ratio then (crime of crimes)

[jerry]

No sell the bike if i cant run it properly is the best option.

[Nickj]

Wack in those HIGH compression pistons and hope you close enough to the few UK sites stocking the off the shelf holy grail of fuels ... BP Ultimate Unleaded 102.

Jerry can't you get hold of a small dive tank and fill it with hydrogen?? Regulated feed into the airbox would octane boost and prevent knock