821 v 1100

[Seb_uk]

So it's been ten long years since I rather foolishly sold my 695 and I'm once again hankering after another Monster. Had a couple of bikes since, an SV650 and a VFR800, but neither really floated my boat like only a Ducati really can. Am planning on getting another at some point in the new year with a budget of around 4-5K and am currently leaning towards an 821, although I also really like the 1100. Either way I don't really think there's a wrong choice, although the 821 would be a lot newer with longer service intervals, etc. Any feedback would be appreciated.

[Ron1000]

The big question is do you want air cooled or water cooled.

[stopintime]

Said about the two:

one feels and sounds like it's loaded with tennis balls, the other with cannon balls.

[Luddite]

You never really shake that Ducati virus from your bloodstream, do you, Seb?!

It's a bit like apples and oranges here, as they really are two quite different beasts. I'm basing the differences on my experience with the 1100 Evo.

The 821 weighs about 20kg more than the 1100 and, while it does have more power, it's higher up the rev range:

109 hp @ 9,250 vs 100 hp @ 7,500

I think more noticeable on the road is the lower torque of the 821, which, again, is located at higher revs:

63 lbft @ 7,750 vs 76 lbft @ 6,000

There are more mod cons on the 821, for example, a TFT screen, riding modes and the option of a quickshifter.

There's a conventional swinging arm on the 821 while the 1100's is single-sided, if that's important to you.

You mention service intervals and while they will be less frequent on the 821, against that you've got the added complication of water-cooling and double the valves to check when compared with the 1100.

The fuelling and ride of the 821 feel more modern and composed than the 1100 Evo and you'd want to budget for an ECU reflash and suspension upgrade to fully enjoy the Evo. I think the pre-Evo 1100 with the DS motor runs sweeter and may not need any tweaking but, even if you got the 1100S with the Öhlins, you'd probably still want to rework the suspension as you may the front/rear balance mismatched with a soft 7.5 N/mm at the front and a very hard 130 N/mm at the rear.

I think you really need to actually ride an example of each and see which one better suits the way you ride on the roads you ride.

With a budget of £4-5k, you might struggle to find a decent 821 - even a good 1100 will probably fetch £5k+.

Anyway, it's a nice choice to have to make. Let us know what you decide...

[Seb_uk]

The big question is do you want air cooled or water cooled.

Don't have a particular preference if I'm honest, although I do think the air cooled bikes look a little cleaner.

[Seb_uk]

Said about the two:

one feels and sounds like it's loaded with tennis balls, the other with cannon balls.

Not hear either in the flesh, but on the various YouTube videos I've watched the 821 sounds good, even with the stock exhaust. Shame it doesn't have a dry clutch though.

[Seb_uk]

You never really shake that Ducati virus from your bloodstream, do you, Seb?!

It's a bit like apples and oranges here, as they really are two quite different beasts. I'm basing the differences on my experience with the 1100 Evo.

The 821 weighs about 20kg more than the 1100 and, while it does have more power, it's higher up the rev range:

109 hp @ 9,250 vs 100 hp @ 7,500

I think more noticeable on the road is the lower torque of the 821, which, again, is located at higher revs:

63 lbft @ 7,750 vs 76 lbft @ 6,000

There are more mod cons on the 821, for example, a TFT screen, riding modes and the option of a quickshifter.

There's a conventional swinging arm on the 821 while the 1100's is single-sided, if that's important to you.

You mention service intervals and while they will be less frequent on the 821, against that you've got the added complication of water-cooling and double the valves to check when compared with the 1100.

The fuelling and ride of the 821 feel more modern and composed than the 1100 Evo and you'd want to budget for an ECU reflash and suspension upgrade to fully enjoy the Evo. I think the pre-Evo 1100 with the DS motor runs sweeter and may not need any tweaking but, even if you got the 1100S with the Öhlins, you'd probably still want to rework the suspension as you may the front/rear balance mismatched with a soft 7.5 N/mm at the front and a very hard 130 N/mm at the rear.

I think you really need to actually ride an example of each and see which one better suits the way you ride on the roads you ride.

With a budget of £4-5k, you might struggle to find a decent 821 - even a good 1100 will probably fetch £5k+.

Anyway, it's a nice choice to have to make. Let us know what you decide...

Thanks for the detailed response.

I think you're right, without riding either it's a difficult decision to make. May have to up my budget slightly, however I have a V8 BMW I need to sell first in order to free up some funds :chuckle:

[Leamreject]

I’ve got both and they are very different to ride and use. The Evo at circa 100bhp is much lighter and masses of torque so much fun at legal speeds, the 821 115bhp is fun when you wind up the speed.

Both are rubbish in traffic, you’ll need bar risers on the Evo and still it’s low, and the decibel flap coming in and out on the 821 makes town riding at 3000 rpm annoying. JHP Coventry don’t have the software to deactivate it annoyingly….

[Dukedesmo]

Regarding the longer service intervals, is this really a thing or have Ducati just stretched the intervals in a bid to make the bikes more buyer friendly?

Realistically, belt life will have improved even for older models as the belts have got better, valves don't require adjustment on time, rather on mileage only etc.

On both my (old) Ducatis, now fitted with upgraded valve collets rather than the half-rings, I rarely need to adjust any valve clearances and I'm quite happy to leave the belts beyond the factory specified 2 years.

I reckon Ducati have just done what many owners do and thought - it'll be alright for another year/x thousand miles in a bid to sell more bikes... :look:

[Ron1000]

I’ve got both and they are very different to ride and use. The Evo at circa 100bhp is much lighter and masses of torque so much fun at legal speeds, the 821 115bhp is fun when you wind up the speed.

Both are rubbish in traffic, you’ll need bar risers on the Evo and still it’s low, and the decibel flap coming in and out on the 821 makes town riding at 3000 rpm annoying. JHP Coventry don’t have the software to deactivate it annoyingly….

Can you not get a ‘smartmoto’ bypass plug for the 821?

[Leamreject]

Can you not get a ‘smartmoto’ bypass plug for the 821?

Will take a look….:hail:

[Luddite]

... the decibel flap coming in and out on the 821 makes town riding at 3000 rpm annoying. JHP Coventry don’t have the software to deactivate it annoyingly….

A Rexxer reflash disabled the exhaust valve and lambda sensors, which transformed my Evo. They also have a flash available for the 821. Contact Neil at Cornerspeed for details and price. 01623 238944 www.cornerspeed.co.uk He can usually reflash the ECU by post within a week. (Maybe if you get both the Evo and 821 done, he'll give you a discount! :rolleyes:)

[Seb_uk]

Great feedback, thanks all. Regarding the service intervals on the 1100 it's the 7K valve check/adjustment that's my only real concern v the 18K interval on the 821. Having said that, if I bought an 1100 it would be around ten years old and likely had them checked/adjusted at least once, and I'm guessing the likelihood of the valves needing actual adjustment every 7K is probably not that high. Regarding the belts, I'd be happy to change them every 4-5 years even on the 1100 as I think 2 years is excessive, particularly as the newer models are every 5 years.

[Luddite]

Yes, don't worry unduly about the belts, Seb. My last and imminent belt changes have been at four year intervals and, if you look at this thread, you'll see that it appears Ducati have extended the five year recommendation to include the 696/796/1100 models.

http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=58960

The 1100 belts are the same part number as those used on the 1100 Scrambler and the Scrambler's belt service interval is five years (or 15,000 miles). (Always check the belt condition annually as a matter of routine anyway.)

[Darren69]

I think with your budget of 4-5K you'd be stretched to get either a 1100 or 821 but you would be looking at a nice S4/S4R or S2R1000 for that sort of money. All great original classic shape Monsters and the 4V ones are some of the most powerful ones until the more recent 1200, but with the advantage of zero depreciation. They are actually holding value or slowly going up in valiue, if that's important to you? You might get lucky with a later 1100 for that but performance wise they are not as good. The other one of mention is the 1100S with the full Ohlins but they do tend to command more of a premium.

[Seb_uk]

Looking at what available around the 4K mark I probably shouldn't discount a 796 either. Not hugely down on power v an 1100 and still has a single sided swing arm which always looks great.

[Darren69]

Or an S2R 800 for that matter, but you can't beat the grunt of the bigger twins.

[makemdan]

I was in a similar position to you although it was 2 air cooled bikes, a ds1000 and an 1100 Evo. I listened to all the warnings about the Evo but as I thought the DS was overpriced I decided to go for the Evo, 8 years old and 7500 miles. I bought it remotely so no test ride and the dealer couldn't confirm if it been sorted. Well, it arrived and while it looked fantastic it was awful to ride. At low speeds it lurched and misfire constantly. Out in the sticks at speed the fuelling was transformed but the suspension was awful, so much so it was unrideable at speed on the twisties. The exhaust valve had been disabled and the o2 sensors removed. Suspension was standard, it had termis and dp air filter.
I took all the advice from here on board, especially from Vince and proceeded as follows:-
Sent the ECU to Neil, Cornerspeed, 1st class service, almost by return of post
Fitted a 14 tooth front sprocket
Had K-Tech fork internals fitted with linear springs
Had an Ohlins linear rear spring fitted with a higher oil in the damper
The bike was totally transformed. OK, I had to adjust rebound and compression on forks a few times to get it right but the bike is transformed, it always sounded great but now it is joy to ride.
Do I regret getting the Evo? not one jot but unless you get one that's been sorted expect to shell out some more dosh. I spent £1100 sorting mine but I went into the deal with eyes open
Get an Evo but be prepared for "adjustments"

[Luddite]

Do I regret getting the Evo? not one jot but unless you get one that's been sorted expect to shell out some more dosh. I spent £1100 sorting mine but I went into the deal with eyes open
Get an Evo but be prepared for "adjustments"

I'm so pleased that you're finally getting to enjoy your Evo, Ian. They really are an excellent machine once sorted and well worth the effort.

It would definitely be better to find one that's already had the upgrades but one thing to be said for starting with the standard bike is you get to experience the before and after and so really appreciate the improvements! More satisfying but also more expensive! :rolleyes:

[Nickj]

Or an S2R 800 for that matter, but you can't beat the grunt of the bigger twins.

The S2R still has the non-adjustable front forks and a poor rear shock but is otherwise a nice ride.
You can get the Andreani Fork Cartridge Kit for £460, got a set in the man cave but yet to get round to fitting.

[Darren69]

The S2R still has the non-adjustable front forks and a poor rear shock but is otherwise a nice ride.
You can get the Andreani Fork Cartridge Kit for £460, got a set in the man cave but yet to get round to fitting.

The S2R800 is definitely more compromised vs the S2R1000 than the 796 v 1100 is in respect to suspension and brakes. 796's seem to be a fair bit cheaper that the S2R800's too currently.

[Seb_uk]

More excellent feedback, thanks. As much as I love the older Monsters I really want something newer, so that would rule out the S2's and S4's. An 1100 evo would be outside my budget too, so I think it will be a straight shootout between the 821 and 1100, as the 796 is around the same price as the 821 so I'm effectively ruling it out too. Budget wise and once my car has sold I may be able to stretch to around 5.5k. There's a slightly ropey looking 1100s on the Superbike Centre's website within that budget, but I think I'd be looking at the standard 1100 realistically. I need a bike I can use year round in all weathers, so my head is telling me the 821 may be slightly more suitable, although the footpeg issue bothers me a bit. My heart however is leaning towards the 1100 for the air cooled factor purity and the fact that it may be a bit better looking with the slightly longer trellis frame and single sided swing arm. I really need to ride an example of both before deciding, but finding any locally is proving problematic :(

[Flip]

Obviously the choice of motorcycle is a personal thing and only you will know whether you have made the right or wrong choice or whether or not you can live with any of it's foibles as you get more used to riding it.

But you have to question whether it's a good idea to be using it year round in all weathers- no Ducati (or any motorcycle) really fairs very well on our crappy salted Winter roads coupled with all the dark wet riding you have to endure doing it means some serious cask on proper kit to keep you warm, safe and dry.

Either a cheap little car for the bad weather or if you really must ride a motorcycle all year then something less to worry about would be my preference.

[Ron1000]

For winter you need what I like to call ‘donkey’. My donkey is a cbf600n, it’s slow, heavy with not very good brakes but it’s cheap and indestructible.