Neutral switch gremlins .. and .. The Sidestand Diode Mod.

[utopia]

For a while now, I've had a dicky neutral switch.
It glows nicely when the bike is in neutral but it also retains a dim glow when its in gear.
And its an intermittent problem .. sometimes it works normally.
This has been going on for a couple of years.

I probably would have thrown a new neutral switch at it ages ago but there was another element to the story which made me think that the problem might lie elsewhere.
A couple of years earlier I had added a diode between the neutral switch and the sidestand switch, so that the bike could be started on the sidestand as long as it was in neutral.
This was a mod which was suggested by ukmoc member "Xenocide", who also kindly supplied the diode.
At the time, various degrees of doubt were expressed on the forum about the mod, but the basic circuit logic seemed fine to my mind and the system appeared to work fine in practice.
However, I'm not very electrics minded and I was therefore a bit cautious that there may be unforeseen gremlins lurking.
So, when the neutral light went wayward, I began to wonder if the diode might be "leaking" somehow, or had maybe put undue electrical stress on other components of the system, eg the switch or maybe the relay.

Another reason for my delay in sorting it out was that removal of the neutral switch requires a special spanner .. I settled on a ring spanner with a slot in the head to enable it to pass over the switch wire and a double crank in the handle.
Then the other day, I realised that I didn't have to butcher a perfectly usable 13mm ring spanner because 7/16 AF is just a gnats tad smaller .. and after slotting it could be opened out to fit.
So I did that.

My plan was to try adjusting the shim thickness under the head of the switch, but once I had it in my hand it was obvious that the switch leaked to earth in any position and no amount of shimming would sort it.
The switches seem to cost £35 odd, plus postage or petrol to collect, so getting on for £50 all told .. and I'm all spent out on a forthcoming TT trip.
So I had a fiddle with the old one.
First I left it soaking in meths for an hour or so, agitating it and operating the plunger from time to time.
First try after that and it worked normally, but it soon reverted to intermittent failure.
I didn't fancy soaking it in anything which wouldn't fully evapourate for fear of contaminating the engine oil when I refitted it (ok that's super-fussy, but there it is), so ...
I then soaked it in clean engine oil.
I positioned it "open end upwards" in the oil, in the hope of expelling any air and allowing oil to fill all voids within the switch. I also pumped it from time to time and observed little air bubbles being expelled.
I should say that I was no longer expecting a result by now, I was simply giving it every last stupid little chance before giving in and buying a new one.

You can probably guess by now.
Yep, 250 miles today, around the twisties, through town and village, so lots of gearchanges and neutral selections .. its been perfect.
Who'd a thunk it ?

I dunno what the long term holds but it probably (or do I only mean "possibly" ?) will require a new switch in the not too distant.
For now though, I still have £50 in my pocket.

[utopia]

Apart from being an interesting little tale about nothing much, there is another angle here.
That is, that the diode was not leaking and that the diode mod itself is back to a clean bill of health, in my opinion.
In fact, my initial plan had been to replace the diode with a pukka sidestand bypass kit from Electraeon, which I have.
But, on closer inspection, that kit appears to be exactly the same in principle, just with a load of extra wiring and superseal connectors to make fitment straightforward.
At least, I think its the same. The wiring logic is but the diode it contains is covered in shrinktube so I haven't actually seen it yet .. but I will uncover it and report back shortly.
Not sure whether these kits are still available .. I picked mine up secondhand on ebay.
My setup is neater anyway, because rather than running a wire all the way from the neutral switch to the sidestand switch on the other side of the bike, mine picks up the same wire where it enters the sidestand relay .. which only requires 8 inches of single wire and one single bullet connector ... plus a bit of splicing.
The whole thing is superneat and simple ..you'd struggle to spot that its there at all.
And the harness still comes apart for maintenance.

Once I've stripped out the diode in the Electraeon kit I will post more details of how to do the mod.
I will also be able to confirm the spec of the diode by comparison of the Electraeon one with that supplied by "Xenocide".

Incidentally, these diodes literally cost just a few pence.

The above refers to an original type monster (M750 to be exact, and developed initially on the 900Sie that Gazza now owns) but the logic should/might transfer.

Oh, and for those that don't know, I speak as one who had earlier bridged the sidestand wires, leaving the bike in the dangerous condition of being startable on the sidestand whether it was in neutral or not.
One forgetful evening, that became the reason that my bike is now blue ... the orange tank bit the dust (well, a lampost actually) when I thumbed the button in gear and the bike leapt off the stand.
So, I really really like this mod.
I also like the blue, as it happens.

[Macflurry]

An interesting read bud, good post. A lot of people seem to have issues with things like this and when you read around a lot of people just say that dodgy electrics are something you should just accept on an older bike as the niggles are a nightmare to pin down.

It'll be good to hear how it holds up.

[Dukedesmo]

Both of my Ducatis (M900 & 916) have suffered from dodgy neutral switch syndrome, however both were due to the wires falling off the back of the switch, a quick touch of the soldering iron had them back to working.

[Luddite]

...but the diode it contains is covered in shrinktube so I haven't actually seen it yet .. but I will uncover it and report back shortly.

...Once I've stripped out the diode in the Electraeon kit I will post more details of how to do the mod.

I will also be able to confirm the spec of the diode by comparison of the Electraeon one with that supplied by "Xenocide".

Just to add to this, on page 138, issue 106 of Practical Sportsbikes magazine, (in the shops 10 July), there is a detailed five-step guide with photos of how to carry out this mod and the diode specified is three-amp.

[utopia]

Interesting.
I've just checked back in my notes and my diode is 3A too.
Still don't know what the diode in the electraeon unit is.

Further note .. my fix of the neutral switch by soaking it in oil lasted for a good while but it began to fail again after about 500 miles.
I have now bitten the bullet and shelled out fifty quid on a new switch ... ouch.
Except .. I was able to use a voucher that I won in the raffle at the weekender, so it actually cost me nowt.
Which is good at the moment cos I'm skint (again) after going to the TT this year.
:)

I will try to post a proper "how to" with photos at some stage but for now, its pretty easy to describe in words ..for anybody who fancies doing the mod.
Patch into the wire from the neutral switch, just before its superseal connector and run another short wire from there to the terminal on the sidestand relay that comes from the sidestand switch.
Somewhere along that wire, insert the diode, with its band towards the neutral switch.
That's it really, though I included a bullet connector in the wire, partly for ease of future maintenance and partly so that I could easily disconnect it if it didn't work or developed a fault during testing.
Glue-lined shrinkwrap seals everything up nicely.

[Mr Gazza]

Thanks for an interesting thread Utopia.

Out of passing interest, I removed what I assume to be Xenocide's little hook up for his diode conversion, earlier this year.

Tell the truth I was a bit over zealous with the old clutch and brake cleaner, and melted all the glue off the insulation tape that was "hiding" the redundant mod. (It will be the diode that you have, that came from here?)

So I took a photo before I trimmed it back and made good with heatshrink and fabric harness tape.
Sorry I don't know where the blue cable comes out at the other end. I can only assume that it was threaded down the harness with a darning needle or some such.

https://i.postimg.cc/FRyRsctJ/DSCF6993.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[SpeakForYou]

Sorry to hijack this thread but wheres the best place to buy the diodes from and does anyone have any pictures of the mod?

[Luddite]

Sorry to hijack this thread but wheres the best place to buy the diodes from and does anyone have any pictures of the mod?

You can pick them up for pennies on eBay (you'll end up with more than you need as they always seem to come in multi-packs) e.g.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-Amp-Diode-suitable-for-car-alarm-systems-etc-5-pack/381719534085

Here are the instructions from Practical Sportsbikes

https://i.postimg.cc/zGQQczww/WP-20191230-13-00-19-Pro-3.jpg (https://postimg.cc/PCmKLkRN)

[utopia]

Sorry, I don't have any pics of the mod and I also lack the technology with which to provide one.

Thanks to Luddite for posting up the article from practical sportsbikes.
And in general for being a mine of information and a real asset to the forum.

Reading the article though, I notice that it seems to suggest fitting the diode between the neutral switch and the starter relay.
I dunno whether that works or whether its an error or misprint but my installation places the diode between the neutral switch and the sidestand relay.
I believe this is also the case with the Electraeon bypass kit.
I fancy its an easier job that way anyway, as everything is easy to access.
Here's a description of how I did it.

I spliced a short length of wire, 7 or 8 cm long into the single wire from the neutral switch.
I fitted a bullet connector to the other end, which sits behind the left hand side panel and allows disconnection for maintenance etc.
I then continued with another short length of wire from the bullet connector to the diode, which sits neatly behind the fusebox under the seat.
The other side of the diode is then connected via another short length of wire to the control terminal on the sidestand relay.
The diode and its solder connections is completely covered in glue-lined shrinkwrap, as is the splice into the neutral switch wire.
At the sidestand relay I confess that I simply patched in at the terminal and covered the joint with self amalgamating tape, meaning to tidy this up later but never getting around to it.

If that all sounds complicated, a quick summary would read ....
Connect a length of wire between the neutral switch wire and the control terminal on the sidestand relay, fitting the diode and a bullet connector somewhere along its length.

Its a super-neat installation .. basically just 30cm or so of wire with a bulge where the diode is and a bullet connector.
You'd hardly know it was there.

Note .. my neutral switch has just a single wire but I think some monsters may have switches with a double wire .. if memory serves.

Hope that helps.

My system is working perfectly (after replacing my dicky neutral switch) and has been on the bike for 5 or 6 years.

[Darren69]

If you don't fancy making your own. There's one for sale on ebay:-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ducati-748-916-996-998-Side-Stand-Engine-Cutout-Bypass-Kit/293279107482?hash=item4448cc099a:g:W8kAAOSwUEFdmmy Z

Nothing to do with me BTW.

There's always the Electraeon kit but that seems a bit pricey at nearly £60!

[SpeakForYou]

I've been trying this mod all day. Spliced into the live wire from the sidestand switch and spliced into the yellow/green neutral switch wire then used bullet connectors for the diode but bike still wont run with the stand down. Any ideas?

[utopia]

Have you got the diode the right way round ?
The banded end should be towards the neutral switch.

[SpeakForYou]

Yeah have tried it both way still nothing. Stsrts with the stand up as normal though.

[SpeakForYou]

Took some pics. Hope this works.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/188097669@N02/shares/5Dposs

[utopia]

Well, I've just been and checked my bike, just to be sure, and your installation looks to be basically the same as mine.
I've made the connections in slightly different locations .. the one to the neutral switch wire is on the other side of the single pole amp superseal connector but that's obviously an insignificant difference and my connection to the sidestand wire is at the relay itself but its still to the grey wire, which is the live from the sidestand switch .. so all seems to be well there.
My next thought would be that those blue patch connector units might not be making a good connection .. I'm guessing that they kinda snap closed over the wire and cut into it to make the connection. Is there any way you can check the continuity of those ?
After that I can only think that you've got a duff diode (or one of the connections to it is bad).

I'm not the world's best electrician myself but this should all be reasonably straightforward so I think my analysis should be accurate.

[Dukedesmo]

My next thought would be that those blue patch connector units might not be making a good connection .. I'm guessing that they kinda snap closed over the wire and cut into it to make the connection.

Indeed, 'Scotchlok' connectors are the work of the Devil and definitely have no place on a bike or anywhere that vibration/moisture/corrosion can occur.

Not saying they're the cause of the problem but you should definitely replace them with a better alternative.

[slob]

https://youtu.be/mMXDa5hVzXA

[SpeakForYou]

I've tested both my diodes with the mulitmeter and got a reading. I have continuity with the scotch locks too. Will take another look today and see how I get on.

[SpeakForYou]

Thanks guys. Bloody quick connectors ��

[utopia]

Aha .. I assume its working now then ?
Tbh it did seem highly likely that the connectors were at fault because the modification was having no effect on the system at all.
As long as the diode was capable of allowing current to flow, you should have had some change in the operation of the sidestand cutout .. quite probably it would have started with the stand either up or down.
Glad you're sorted anyway.

[SpeakForYou]

I was thinking about trying them today anyway just to see. Glad its working, its like having a normal bike now��

Thanks for all the help��

[PPuxley]

If that all sounds complicated, a quick summary would read ....
Connect a length of wire between the neutral switch wire and the control terminal on the sidestand relay, fitting the diode and a bullet connector somewhere along its length.

Hi Utopia
I was looking at this yesterday for an early Monster, 95.
Am I right -those dont have a Side stand relay? The side stand switch simply switches a live feed to a dash warning triangle lamp that is earthed.
A couple of small Songle relays and a few diodes would do it I think, to give you:-


A starter interlock that will only allow the bike to be started in Neutral
A sidestand interlock that will kill the ignition if the side stand is down AND the bike is not in Neutral
Also a manual bypass to the starter interlock, if you were worried about the Neutral light failing


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51153347888_7e0ca79dab_c_d.jpg

[utopia]

Aha .. you assume that I'm well versed in electrical matters.
I'm afraid that's not the case.
I originally learned of the diode mod through another club member .. I didn't work it out for myself.
Having said that, I did manage to decipher its logic sufficiently to satisfy myself that it would work, but I'm afraid that's just about the limit of my capabilities.
I'm not really competent to advise on your system.

[PPuxley]

Aha .. you assume that I'm well versed in electrical matters.
I'm afraid that's not the case.
I originally learned of the diode mod through another club member .. I didn't work it out for myself.
Having said that, I did manage to decipher its logic sufficiently to satisfy myself that it would work, but I'm afraid that's just about the limit of my capabilities.
I'm not really competent to advise on your system.
Thanks. I was really posting it in case anyone was interested in a solution for non side stand relay models. This is what it amounts to when made up. Just need to encapsulate it once Ive added the power diodes which are in the post. I think there might be a more elegant solution on the Neutral/starter lockout, but its not quite come to me yet.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51150300911_841ea68091_w_d.jpghttps://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51151088929_0a22d6978c_w_d.jpg

[PPuxley]

I have finished the relay module now and it works as intended.

Stops the bike being driven away with the side stand down.
Allows the motor to run while on the side stand
Only allows the bike to start if in Neutral or with the clutch pulled in.
Manual switches to return opeation to "Normal"
"Fails" to normal operation, should Neutral light switch fail , for example
Fits neatly between the CDI and the coil.
Safegaurded with a time delay to prevent false operation of the sidestand switch


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51193741716_5008a3e637_c_d.jpg