696 rough running

[MrsC_772]

A couple of times over the last few weeks I'd thought my bike was running a bit rough, and almost cut out on me when I was waiting at traffic lights.

Today on the way home, my bike was clearly sulking at having been awarded the Concours d'Grot. Queuing in traffic I was hearing some unpleasant noises - there was an occasional horrid whine (which gave me belt related paranoia) but that subsided. A bit later on when moving it sounded quite lumpy and rough. As I was almost home, I seriously thought it might be running on only one cylinder given how lumpy and jerky it was. Throttle response at that point was not smooth.

While sat in traffic in neutral, the engine actually died a couple of times and I had to press the starter button and restart the engine. I didn't stall (I wasn't trying to move forward and stalled due to inept clutch control/foot on rear brake) - the engine just stopped. I found myself having to open the throttle a bit while sat in neutral just to keep the engine running. Looking at the rev counter, it looked like it was trying to idle at lower revs than normal (nearer 1000 than then normal 1500 ish).

There was also at one point in traffic an unpleasant engine related smell, but given how dense the traffic, I can't be 100% sure it was my bike to blame.

When we got home and the bike had cooled a bit, Andy got his thermal imaging camera out and we started the bike again and ran it a few minutes. The external temperatures of both cylinders were about the same, give or take a degree, so we don't think it's only running on one cylinder.

Andy thought it looked like it was smoking a smidgen as well, although there might have been a bit of steam from water left on the exhaust after Andy had washed the bike when we got home.

Advice on diagnostics would be appreciated. Could it be a sensor failure? Fuel pump issues?

Obviously when I pick up the new bike next Saturday, the pressure is off in terms of getting it fixed in a hurry, but in the meantime I've got to cross my fingers that it works well-ish enough to get me to work and back for the next 4 days.

[Mr Gazza]

The cheapest and easiest thing to start with would be to replace the spark plugs.
After that the fuel itself could be the problem if you were unlucky enough to fill up with some dirty stuff from the bottom of the tank?
The fuel filter would be my next stop, after that I would be reaching for the diagnostic reading.

[Albie]

Honestly I never stole any oil. Really sorry to hear its poorly but touch wood it just needs a thorough overhaul.

[chris yeatman]

might be worth a compression test on each cylinder to rule out any valve problem or valve clearance.

[MrsC_772]

I don't think the fuel itself was the problem - my last fill up before the ride home was Shell ordinary unleaded at the garage just up the road from the Sharnbrook.

Since then it has had 2 tanks of super unleaded (1 at Tesco, 1 lot of Shell vpower).

The latest alarming development was a shocking thirst! Normally on a week's commuting I expect the fuel light to come on after around 130-135 miles, which means the bike has used 12 litres. The ride home from the weekender it came on at 113 miles (my previous all time low was 107 miles). But commuting to work last week it came on after only 63 miles!!!! :eyepopping:

It was still running rough - possibly not quite as rough as previously, whether that's because it was on super unleaded (which my 696 normally doesn't like as much as the ordinary stuff) or because the ECU had somehow decided that to produce more "normal" running, it just needs to drink 2 1/2 times as much fuel as normal!

Just had a look at the spark plugs - to quote Andy "they're as sooty as I've ever seen spark plugs" so I need new ones.

Next step is compression test ...

[rollo22]

When did you last have the valve clearance checked mileage wise.
Thirst could be injectors out of whack. There is a way of resetting the TPS at home but cant remember at the moment.(sorry)

[Mr Gazza]

Could be a temperature sensor gone west? Might be stuck on the cold start mixture?

Next step should be read fault codes.

[Mossleymonster]

Could be a temperature sensor gone west? Might be stuck on the cold start mixture?

Next step should be read fault codes.

I agree, if you have a friendly garage/MOT station, they'll have a gas analyser, if you can get it on there. If it's showing anything like 8% it'll be a temp sensor.

[MrsC_772]

Having reinserted the nasty sooty spark plugs (at least temporarily, to allow the engine to run, and until we've got to the bottom of what's making them nasty and sooty I'd rather not order and immediately destroy new ones), I started the bike to warm the engine up a bit (which both Andy's compression tester instructions and the 696 workshop manual said needed to be done before testing compression).

The bike started happily, although sounded rough when running compared to the new bike. Both old and new Monsters were idling around 1100ish RPM.

Andy held a bit of white kitchen roll behind the exhaust pipes of the old one. It was rapidly covered with a nasty black sooty mess (marginally worse behind the RHS pipe). The fumes coming out of the exhaust smelled really bad - it wasn't a pure petrol smell (i.e. what I get when filling the bike staring down into the tank to see if it's as full as I can get) but a mixture of petrol and exhaust fumes.

As per the instructions, we disconnected the HT leads from both cylinders, and unscrewed the spark plug from the top/rear cylinder and screwed in the compression tester. I pushed the starter button and held it in for about 2-3 seconds and the pressure built up on the gauge, to around 120 psi - not quite to the 11-12 bar that the workshop manual said was right, but heading there. Andy then remember that we were supposed to test compression with the throttle fully open, so re-set the compression tester, there was a gentle and reassuring hiss of air, and so I pushed the starter button again ....

... there was a "tick tick tick" but we saw nothing on the compression tester as if the engine was not turning over at all.

We now have this horrible feeling the engine may have seized!

The bike has sufficient oil, no oil pressure warning light (or any other warning light) came on.

Reinserting the spark plugs and trying to start the engine normally - same result, no start, no turning over, no go...

It is due a valve clearance check, having done 7,500 since the last one, and had been booked into Snells for that and a belt check about a month from now, but obviously can't be ridden there in its current condition.

Further diagnostic assistance gratefully appreciated - is there anything obvious Andy & I can check without taking the engine to bits?

I'm starting to fear it might be cheaper buy a whole new (2nd hand but lower mileage) engine than get someone to fix this 70k mile one if I end up handing over to professionals ...

Much as I hate getting my hands oily, right now the hatred of the prospect of yet another enormous garage bill is increasing, and if Andy & I can narrow down the list of potential problems ourselves, that would be great.

[Grumpy]

The easiest way to check for a seized engine would be to remove the spark plugs, then the small cover on the left hand engine casing. This gives access to the alternator, which attached to the crank.Fit the correct size socket on to the alternator and see if the crank will rotate. This will allow the pistons to move within the bores. If you have movement the engine is not seized.
You may have a 'dropped' valve, which would seize the engine. This may be seen by shining a torch into the plug holes.

[Albie]

Oh this is not what I expected. Seems we cursed the bike with your desire for grot. Glad at least you have another one to hand temporarily.

[MrsC_772]

UKMOC didn't curse my bike with the desire for grot - arguably, if the latest symptoms are terminal, you could say the engine has gone with a blaze of glory!

As Andy pointed out, if a bike's engine is ever going to seize, better it does so in our garage at home, the day after I brought a new one home than e.g. while riding at 60 mph on a B road in the middle of nowhere in Sicily, with a ferry to catch!

I presume we'll need to drain the oil (and therefore put in another order to Opie) to check if the crank has seized (as per Grumpy's suggestion)? (Just undoing the two little screws holding the little alternator cover on, to fit the R&G protector to the new bike, led to a tiny amount of oil oozing out.)

We can try squinting down the spark plug hole to look for a dropped valve (Andy's bicycle headlight makes a useful torch) although my fear is dropping something else into the engine in the process!

Rather wishing we'd picked up one of the cheapy fibre optic inspection cameras that Maplin was flogging off in their closing sale, or that the likes of Aldi may have briefly had on offer.

[Grumpy]

Draining the oil and inspecting the sump plug would also be wise. The plug has a magnet built in, if there is any swarf in the engine, the magnet will highlight it. It also might be worth checking the oil for swarf.

[Mr Gazza]

Probably easier to turn the engine over by putting it in gear and pulling the rear wheel round. Obviously it needs to be up on a paddock stand for this.
This should be easier in a high gear as the gearing will be working the opposite sense if the wheel is turning the engine rather than vice versa as per normal.

BTW, did you clean the sooty plugs before trying them again?

Don't panic... You will see 100,000 out of her yet... :biggrin:

[utopia]

I would say its a fairly safe bet that it hasn't seized .. simply because there is no reason that it should have done so since your earlier compression test.
I agree with Gazza on the easiest way to turn the engine over and check that it hasn't seized being via the rear wheel.
I put mine in 2nd gear to turn it over via the rear wheel .. it'll still need a firm heave on the wheel though (or you could "knock" it, using the slack in the transmission, which gets it moving more easily).
Obviously, you need the plugs (or comp tester) to be removed before doing this, so you're not trying to turn it against compression.

The "tick, tick" sounds as if its the starter solenoid doing its normal thing, but with no subsequent response from the starter motor itself .. although I can see no reason why that should suddenly occur either, tbh.
Strange one, that.

As both plugs (not just one) were sooty and the fuel consumption had increased dramatically, it sounds to me like your problem involves some control device which affects BOTH cylinders .. ie something like Gazza's suggestion that the cold start system is failing to disengage as the engine warms up (possibly due to failure of the temp sensor).
Or maybe the throttle position sensor adjustment has gone awry.
Can't see it being valve clearances as this would be unlikely either to fail suddenly like it has or to affect both cylinders at the same time.
Your new fuel consumption is so suddenly and dramatically worsened that it points very strongly indeed to the fault being directly related to fuel control.
I would be looking for a failure in a fueling-related control device somewhere which affects BOTH cylinders.

[Mr Gazza]

^ There speaks the voice of reason ^
Going back to your first post. you say that it started as an intermittent fault. Now it is a total failure of something.
This is characteristic of an electrical or electronic fault.

I would be checking all the connectors to the sensors and the ECU, even the cables between them.
If you can, check with a multimeter for continuity through each connection. If all is good then it's probably a sensor failure.

I bought my bike as a non runner which had stumped the previous owner, it had been off the road for a year. I traced the problem to a poor connector on top of one of the injectors within minutes. I soldered in two new plugs and she hasn't missed a beat since.

[Luddite]

I'm with utopia on this, especially his comments about the 'tick, tick' symptom.

Didn't you have to replace the starter motor recently? It could be that somewhere along the starter circuit something has been disturbed and it's just a coincidence that it's happened now. I'd check right through from the battery terminals themselves through the starter relay and solenoid to the starter motor connections.

As for the rough running, I take it the yellow error light hasn't come on? You'd think if one of the sensors had failed, it would trigger an error code. But it does sound like a sensor problem.

Good luck!

[AndyC_772]

Good news, it's not as b*ggered as we thought it was :)

Picture the scene. I'm crouched down beside the bike holding a compression tester, and the conversation goes something like this...

"OK, press the starter"

chugga-chugga-chugga-chugga-chugga-chugga

"Cool, that's working OK. Let's just repeat the test with the throttle fully open."

<click> <psssst> (Compression gauge returns to zero)

"Ready!"

kerchak!kerchak!kerchak!

(Compression gauge doesn't move)

"Oh, dear, that's a shame, what a pity" *

I spent the rest of the evening trying to work out how it was even physically possible to seize an engine just by turning it over with the plugs out. I did feel a bit hard done by. We both did.

But, a day later, and with a clear head...

With the bike on a paddock stand, plugs out and the bike in gear, spinning the back wheel turns the engine over easily. Through the spark plug holes I can see pistons moving and valves opening and closing, all a bit sooty but no obvious damage. (Hurrah!)

So, if the engine can turn over easily, what's with the starter...?

Turns out there's just 1.5V on the positive terminal of the starter motor. I replaced the motor itself a few weeks ago, and the battery just a few days before that, so right now my best guess is that the starter relay has a terrible sense of humour and picked exactly the worst moment to fail. There's nothing else in the circuit that hasn't already been replaced, after all.

Should be easy to check; a spare battery and a set of jump leads should turn the starter over independently of the bike's electrics, and if that works, then the fault must be simple and electrical.

Then we need to figure out the cause of the rough running. It affects both cylinders, so I'm thinking maybe an O2 sensor?

* these may not have been my exact words at the time

[Jez900ie]

Big Hurrah!

[BigOz]

Your bikes initial rough running issue sounds a bit like how mine behaved when the vacuum hose on the throttle bodies had a split. It smelled rich and ran badly and cut out.

[Martin Duke]

Have you checked the air filter? Just a thought, very sooty plugs could be too much fuel or not enough air perhaps.

I had some mice move into my S2R's airbox - I couldn't believe what I was seeing when I removed the lid.

Filter element well chewed and they'd built up a store of sunflower seeds raided from a bag in the garage!

No sign of the culprits though.

Good luck with sorting it out, Martin :gromit:

[AndyC_772]

OK, thanks for the tip, I'll leave a cat in the garage overnight.

Does Swarfega work on fur?

[MrsC_772]

:woot:

Having established that the engine wasn't seized the other day, we managed to get it started and diagnosed why it was running so rough and rich.:thumbsup:

We plugged it in to the Optimate overnight to top up the battery charge (just in case it was, as Luddite suggested, something to do with the starter circuit) and replaced the starter contactor (not previously replaced when Andy fitted the new starter motor) and lo and behold it started (and continued to puther out petrol fumes and sound lumpy and grumpy, especially compared with Secundus!)

We checked the airbox - the air filter was grubby, but not filthy/blocked/home to a family of mice.

Having established (with multimeter and very posh oscilloscope) that the throttle position sensor and temperature sensor were fine, we were starting to point the finger at the air pressure sensor. Turns out that one of the little rubber hoses that connect it with the front cylinder throttle body had split at the end nearest the sensor, and then come off. I suspect the initial rough-ish running was when there was a split in the hose with some air seeping in from the outside world, and then when the fuel consumption more than doubled, it was when the hose had fallen off. As the hose from one cylinder falling off the sensor meant air could get into the sensor from the outside world, it affected the fuelling for both cylinders (hence the shocking 12 litres in 63 miles). We chopped the split end off, shoved the hose back on the sensor, started the bike again and it immediately sounded a lot happier.

I took it out for a ride yesterday afternoon and it was back to normal.

I will ask Snells to replace both the little hoses when the bike goes in for a valve clearance/belt check in a few weeks time - if one has perished and split with age, the other one might do the same, and the rubber was going a bit brittle.

Right now (touch wood) I have 2 working 696s!

Tonight's gold star (or should that be machined titanium star) goes to BigOz "Your bikes initial rough running issue sounds a bit like how mine behaved when the vacuum hose on the throttle bodies had a split. It smelled rich and ran badly and cut out."

I can't quite get over the irony of my conversation with BigOz at the weekender about whether there were any other problems his 696 had suffered which mine had not (yet), which I needed to look out for (given that our 696s do seem to be twins/soulmates when it comes to experiencing similar mechanical woes) He mentioned split hoses, and less than a week later sure enough mine suffered the same thing!

[Luddite]

That's great news! 100k by Christmas?

[Mr Gazza]

Brilliant news and a cheap fix too, without going into the shop. Well done.

Of course when I said about checking all the connections to the sensors, I was thinking of electrical connections., Air never occurred to me, but it amounts to the same thing really, just a different sort of message to the sensor.

[MrsC_772]

Not by Christmas 2018 Luddite (especially as I'll take Secundus on my 2 continental trips this year), but I'm now more optimistic the bike will get to 100k in maybe another 4-5 years.

I'm more relieved that I'll still have an old scruffy monster to use for winter commuting, so that hopefully I can preserve Secundus in better nick so that it doesn't become a future Concours d'Grot contender!