Ducati parts bin starter on my 696, gutted

[Kameloil]

So as directed by you kind gentlefolk I have started a separate post on this issue. Went to start up the bike for the first ride of the year and bike wouldn't turn over. Checked the power all the way down to the starter and all looked fine. Battery is healthy. Had the starter removed and disassembled and this is what has been reported...

'there are 3 faults with the starter, the oil seal to protect it from the engine oil has gone, one of the brushes has lost connection from the brush wiring, also the rotor is so worn to the point its the worst wear I have ever seen. As soon as I had opened it there was the distinctive smell of burnt electrics, there is no repair possible with this unit..'

The bike has done 5k miles in 6 years mostly 50-100 mile weekend runs, garaged it's whole life and pampered where possible, service every year regardless of mileage, only drinks unleaded super etc, etc. You get the picture.

I'm now faced with a parts bill of £370. I don't know why this has happened nor if it will happen again if I throw £500+ at it? Someone suggested West Country Windings any opinions? Perhaps someone can recommend a breaker that might have a sound unit?

I'll try to get a picture up, laptop has developed a random fault and can't upload on the phone. Grrr

[Taff666]

Yo Kameloil

Found these on e-bay, they may be of interest to you.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-HQ-Ducati-Monster-600-620-695-696-750-800-900-STARTER-MOTOR-/152517869839?hash=item2382c6010f:g:cFUAAOSwu4BV4N8 I

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-STARTER-MOTOR-DUCATI-SS750-SS800-SS900-SUPERSPORT-996-SS-SUPERBIKE-SM9162-/251872715605?fits=UKM_Make%3ADucati%7CUKM_CCM%3A69 6&hash=item3aa4c8a355:g:vMoAAMXQqExRmjoE

Good luck, I hate leccy probs!!:grump:

[alan c]

Well spotted Taff.

I just spoke to Shuffy as he had problem with starter motor on his S2R 1000. He fitted a replacement from Electrex world as much cheaper option, worth giving them a call.

[Nasher]

the oil seal to protect it from the engine oil has gone,

Is this a trusted mate doing the work or a paid mechanic?

'Gone' is an expression that doesn't have any place in a report on a customers bike. Worn, broken up, or damaged is what I'd expect to see from anyone who knew what they were doing.

Also, he should be asking the question why so much wear has occurred in such a small amount of use, at least asking if you have to turn the bike over for long periods to start it.
Or is he hoping to charge you to change it again in two years time?

Nasher.

[Darren69]

Is this a trusted mate doing the work or a paid mechanic?

'Gone' is an expression that doesn't have any place in a report on a customers bike. Worn, broken up, or damaged is what I'd expect to see from anyone who knew what they were doing.

Also, he should be asking the question why so much wear has occurred in such a small amount of use, at least asking if you have to turn the bike over for long periods to start it.
Or is he hoping to charge you to change it again in two years time?

Nasher.

Does he mean it's missing altogether perhaps?

[Saint aka ML]

Playing devils advocate here but if you only do 5k miles in 6 years depending on conditions of storage and the 5k miles when used it motor will get damaged

It gets wet, never has time to dry and corrosion starts, that would make it overheat and work less efficienlty very quickly which would lead to burned out motor.

Also motor replacement is a quick job so it should never reach 500GBP for repair.

I have a 999 starter motor (2k miles from new) and older SS motor if you interested.
Both purchased for below 50GBP on ebay.
I keep them as my Monster that I do not use that often eats them often.

[Kameloil]

Taff thanks for the links, I’ll follow up to see if I can get an Electrex model that fits the bike, seems like the best option. Alan thanks for the cross check on what Shuffy used.
Nasher The guy I use is a very competent mechanic that has worked on Ducati's for many years. Where I live I’m 120 miles from the nearest Ducati dealer so rather than go to a Honda or Triumph dealer I’ve used the most qualified guy I can find.

The point about turning the bike over is an interesting one. I (still) assume my bike is difficult to start and all Ducatis are like this. It takes 3 or 4 starts to get her going and it’s the reason I fitted an Optimate originally, to ensure a full charge and no drop whilst I try to get her going. I have to fiddle with the fast idle lever to get her going most times. Does this mean that I have stressed the starter motor 3 or 4 times more than normal? If it does and I’m the weak point then that is a relief as we’ve found the problem, user error ;) However I feel that perhaps the unit has never really worked well so there may have been an underlying issue all along.

Labour is estimated as an hour strip down and an hour to refit. I think that’s reasonable considering he came out to me twice, once to check it out originally and a second time to strip it. 10 miles each way.

Darren I’ll ask about the oil seal and my only concern here is if this is something Ducati would consider as a warranty issue? Ultimately I wouldn’t expect to have to change out a unit that is 10% of the bike value at 5k miles.

Saint the bike is kept in a garage and rarely sees wet weather, it gets cleaned with a hose and bucket and a spray of FS365 to dry. Then back inside before getting a dust sheet and back on charge. Short of tucking her in I’m not sure there’s much more I can do.

I’m interested in starter motor that fits my bike, a 696 ABS from 2011 otherwise it’s an eBay level risk. I don’t want to add any additional fettling/engineering to allow fitment so would like something that is plug and play. Please advise or PM me if you prefer.

Again thank you all for your comments.

Tried everything to upload a picture but failed :gromit:

[Darren69]

You can't upload photos direct to the site. You have to load up to a hosting site like Photobucket or Postimage and then paste the link here.

[Kameloil]

Oki doki so here are the links via Postimage, photobucket wouldnt set up an account for some reason?

Mechanical carnage, anybody want to hazzard a guess whats happened here?

https://s28.postimg.org/bcq8p7we1/Inked_IMG_0565_LI.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/bcq8p7we1/)

https://s28.postimg.org/jji8gsmgp/Inked_IMG_0568_LI.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/jji8gsmgp/)

https://s28.postimg.org/cubp0s14p/Inked_IMG_0570_LI.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/cubp0s14p/)

https://s28.postimg.org/4q3kw1epl/Inked_IMG_0575_LI.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/4q3kw1epl/)

https://s28.postimg.org/xh0em3kjd/Inked_IMG_0578_LI.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/xh0em3kjd/)

https://s28.postimg.org/iz37e3t89/Inked_IMG_0579_LI.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/iz37e3t89/)


posted image (https://postimage.io/)

[Dirty]

Seems to me something has got loose and done the damage. Ouch!

[markh]

£370 for a starter! Hells teeth.

[Dookbob]

I have serviced a lot of monster starter motors, but never seen anything as bad as this. Could be that someone might have fitted the wrong spec. brush set that didn't fit in the holders properly, which would explain the state of the commutator.

[Blah blah]

+1 for Electix World, £82 for a new starter, sometimes ebay isn't cheaper.... Is it that difficult to remove and replace yourself?

[utopia]

At 5k miles in 6k years, I wouldn't have expected the starter to have needed any replacement brushes yet. My 750 has done 22k miles on the original, untouched starter. Always starts as soon as I touch the button too.
Having said that, the brushes in yours do look to be canted at an angle in the holders, as if they're too small. Maybe they have been replaced already (with the wrong ones). If so, that would be premature though and would suggest some other fault being the root cause.
I'm assuming that the bearings are still ok, otherwise your mechanic would have mentioned it.
His report seems to be very "proper" actually .. but the price to put it right is a bit stiff to say the least. He's certainly correct about your starter being beyond repair anyway.
If it was my bike, I would possibly get hold of a used starter, maybe replace the brushes and fit that.
But if the Electrex unit can be had new for £80 odd quid, that sounds like a better deal.
I suspect that you'll never know the true cause of the problem, but my guess would be that it is limited to the starter itself, and replacing that will very probably be a full cure.
On the other hand, I would be slightly loathe to fit expensive, genuine ducati parts, just in case there is some unknown issue which takes the new one out too .. although I kinda doubt that would happen.

You learn something new every day.
I didn't know they used 4 brushes.
Previous starters in my experience have only had 2.

[StevieL]

What you have there my friend is the end result of a total bodge job, the brushes are too small for the carriers which is why they are sticking out at an angle and the brush material is far too hard for the commutator, if the fit and material are correct the brushes get worn without damaging anything else, its the bin for that unit as you have guessed.
Atb Steve

[Dukedesmo]

£370 for a starter! Hells teeth.

Indeed, and to have failed/been bodged at this low mileage seems a bit odd. My 916 is 19 yrs old, done almost 50k miles and the original starter is still going strong.

Don't know what a starter costs but assuming £80 (electrex) and that it wouldn't take more than an hour to swap it over, I wouldn't expect the bill to be more than £200 at the most.

[manwithredbike]

carnage indeed. as others said above, certainly looks like the wrong brushes. they should be sitting straight in the brush holders. looks like the starter may have stuck at some stage causing a high current onto the commutator burning it out in a section and probably overheating and burning the insulation off a section of the windings in the process. commutators normally should wear evenly.

[BigOz]

I have an Electrex World SM9162 on my 696 following corrosion to the terminal retiring the Ducati one. The pinion supplied needs swapping to the one from the original motor if I remember correctly.

[Saint aka ML]

I seen a damage like on photos before.
Well similar.

1. when who ever put the motor together managed to somehow get a small piece of metal chunk locked inside (or possibly it came loose from something).
2. As mentioned Brushes were fitted wrong or to big.

If that motor needed fixing in past (looks like it) then that bike needs to be used more/cleaned more.

The pin that V+ cable attaches to gets damaged either as bolt holding the lead gets corroded and during removal pin twists or someone overtightened it in 1st place cracking isolation between pin and casing.
Then you need to open the starter to replace the plastic and it was put back together wrong.
Seen that few times.

[BigOz]

Any sign of sprag issues, as I wonder if something stuck and the engine was turning over the starter for extended periods?

Otherwise overly abrasive brushes, grit or other residue in the starter or weak brush springs can cause grooving of a commutator.

[Kameloil]

Electrex weren't able to help as it looks like the part on a 2011 bike is different to the part on the 2008/9 bike they supply, but noted BigOz that there may be a quick fix by changing out the pinion.

"Your part has Code: 270 4.011 5A, SM9162 will replace code: 270-4.001-1A, Alica Dunham | Electrex World Limited"

I have returned the issue as a warranty claim to Ducati Aylesbury, OnYerBike who have been very fair in getting the case sent back to Ducati UK and I assume the factory. If it is accepted, as most of you point out that this shouldn't have happened, then I'll get a replacement through goodwill/warranty. If not, second hand looks currently like the only other option. I've tried to get an opinion as to whether there could be any other reasons that could affect the new starter. Genuine Ducati parts but 'Made in Taiwan' is a little difficult to swallow at £370.

For the record the bike was new to me no work has ever been done on the starter. I'm expecting two hours labour at the end of this but will also have to change out oil and filter again as it looks like contamination has gone across the seal.

Saint, used more I agree, cleaned more not possible!

[BigOz]

My 696 is a 2008 bike. I still have my old starter, it is not in pristine condition externally but was working OK when replaced, it may prove useful as a comparison to see if the Electrex one will work?

[Kameloil]

Not what I was led to believe was the likely response. Disappointing.

Good morning

Unfortunately Ducati will not supply a starter motor under goodwill and the reasons are as follows.
The bike is 4 years outside of its warranty period.
The bike has not had all its services done at authorised Ducati dealers outside it’s warranty period.
Kind regards

On Yer Bike Ltd
A41 Bicester Road
Westcott
Bucks
HP18 0JX

[Kameloil]

So having drawn no luck from Ducati head office UK I have had to use a copy/generic part and thankfully all is working well. Bike back together, oil service and new battery for good measure. Thank you Taff666 for the recommendation. Unfortunately I couldn’t get confirmation from Electrex World that their starter was suitable for my year of bike so went with the other choice which was sent from Scooter Works. They were happy to confirm compatibility by phone and offered a full refund if unused but sealed, so hats off to them! The new part looks identical and is similarly produced in Taiwan for 25% of the price.

Unfortunately the experience has turned me off Ducati. Ducati declining any assistance as its past its warranty and that it’s not been serviced by a Ducati garage are unreasonable, as is not responding to my email to query their decision. My response is put a dealership in Aberdeen (120 miles from Ducati Glasgow) or lose more customers and if your starter motors are failing at 5,300 miles, the issue is not the service location, but probably your design or the supplier. For the record only Ducati trained mechanics have ever worked on my bike.

[Jez900ie]

Could you post the contact info for Scooter Works, I think it might be something I'd like to keep!

[Kameloil]

eBay Business seller information
Scooter Works Europe Ltd
Brett showell
ESD Business Park
Wollaston Road
Stourbridge
West Midlands
DY8 4HE
United Kingdom
Phone:01384|395740
Email:service@scooter-works.co.uk
Company registration number: 8035901
VAT number: UK 133463235
I provide invoices with VAT separately displayed.

Not sure about that phone number, think it was faulty but the link from Taff666 is at the start of this thread and talks you to the part on eBay with company info.

[Jez900ie]

That was quick! Thanks very much amigo.

[Darren69]

I wouldn't be down on Ducati for something like that, they have to consider the risks and risk management and for something that's been off their radar for so long I wouldn't expect any company to accept liability and cough up for something like that, when anybody could have worked on it and caused it to fail.

In my opinion they made the right call, the only one they could or otherwise they would be inundated with such warranty claims for things on old bikes that have worn out or have not been fitted correctly.

As someone posted it looks like the starter was bodged by somebody previously and fitted with the wrong parts. I doubt very much in the same circumstances any other manufacturer, Honda, Suzuki etc would have responded any differently.

[Dirty]

Got to agree with Darren. I can't imagine any manufacturer replacing something like that FOC on a 6 year old bike.

[Kameloil]

Points noted although the fact that the starter has never been worked and bike was new to me needs to be considered also. Wasn't looking for FOC replacement, just an acknowledgement that its a manufacturing issue and the option to buy the part at cost rather than retail as its out of warranty would have kept me happy. Accepting responsibility would have been sufficient but it feels like the implications of that outweigh the value to them. Personal opinion and one that will drive my choice next time.

Upside is that I've been very pleasantly surprised by all the valuable advice from yous lot!