Timing belts - five year life

[Luddite]

As loyal Ducati owners, we're all familiar with the 11th commandment: "Thou Shalt Change Cambelts Every Two Years", which we ignore on pain of death, (or bent valves, which is much worse!).

Did you know, however, that a number of current models have a belt life of five years?

I've been quite taken with the new 797 and have been looking into it in a bit more detail. A check of the maintenance schedule shows the belts are changed after five years, rather than two.

Since the 797 engine is the same as the Scrambler, I checked those too and, yes, they also have a belt life of five years.

Now the Scrambler motor was derived from the 796 but that still has a two year belt life. The part number for the Scrambler/797 belt is different from the 796, (73740281A versus 73740242A respectively), so perhaps they are made from different materials despite being the same dimensions with the same number of teeth. Interestingly though, Stein Dinse list a generic belt which fits all 696/796/Scramblers, (Flennor 412806106F).

However, the Scrambler engine is not the only one with the extended belt life.

The Multistrada 1200 & Diavel have a five year belt life and have engines developed from the 1198, which has the usual two year belt life. Since they all use the same belt (73740251A), the longer service interval can't be down to a new belt construction or different materials.

Now the one thing all these "five year" motors have in common is the fact that they run the softer 11° valve overlap. So, could this gentler valve timing result in less stress on the belt and a longer service life?

I've got no idea but I'd be interested to hear your views.

Incidentally, the revised valve overlap no doubt contributes to the 797's lower peak power figure when compared to the old 796 (http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=55012).

[Ron1000]

Interesting, I've done engineering work for a well known company that makes up belts for allsorts of things (fan belts etc).

The construction is very complex with interwoven steel for strength, strength can be achieved in many ways. i.e. materials used, construction process, curing process and most interestingly twisting of the metal wire and how it's twisted. i.e. how many times it's twisted, twisted forwards or backwards, interwoven in pairs, 2pairs etc etc.

I suppose it all comes down to where you source the belts. if you fit the Ducati part number ones and they don't last five years then I suppose that's on Ducati. If you buy an aftermarket and they don't last then that's on you.

[utopia]

That's very interesting.
I guess it is quite possible that, when uprated components lead to extended service life on new models, the company sees no particular value in extending the maintenance specs on the older bikes which can use the same upgraded parts.
On the other hand, extended service life on new models has great value as it translates to potentially more sales.
So maybe the belt change intervals can be safely exceeded if using the latest spec belts.
Personally, I usually end up running mine for a third year anyway, but maybe my confidence in this can now be raised.

Of course a cynic might say that the original service intervals were set with caution very much in mind but commercial pressures have played some part in extending the periods.
It may be better commercial strategy to go with the extended intervals and cover the cost of a few premature failures under warranty.

Ironically, a well known Ducati dealership once sold me a pair of older spec belts on the grounds that they were "the correct spec for my particular bike", even though I queried the issue of fitting later, uprated belts.
More like "we need to shift all this old stock" I reckon.
I now fit the later belts.

[Saint aka ML]

Not sure about new with 11 degree timing but.

2007 S4rs had 7500 mile service intervals, 2006 had 6000 miles.

Few people here purchased 2006 models late registered, enquired about longer service intervals and received new books with 7500 mile service.

If you look at S4rs 2006 and 2007 there is 0 change and all service parts are the same.
Hay ho 749/999/998 bikes have same engine as S4rs.

Only 2007 S4rs has longer service intervals. Granted monster has different power delivery and cams then 999 but there is an upgrade form ducati that makes the cams more aggressive then 999 for more power, yet 2007 bike is still ok to be kept at 7500 miles.

As utopia said, sometimes they could extend service intervals on older models but choose not to.

Belts for Monster 696 and 695 are the same. Service intervals are not.

[Evostu]

As a matter of interest,when I got my evo last November I had the belts changed for peace of mind,,and although the bike had only done 2,100 miles it turned out the belts were originals so we're nearly 5 yrs old,my Ducati mechanic said they were starting to wear but not significantly .

[jerry]

I have always found that belts on older 2v bikes are good for 3 years or 15,k miles but older 4v bikes 2 years is max as the hot engines and higher revs seem to make the belts wear fast

[Yorkie]

5 years on my Monster before I started the next engine swap and that was running them with no covers.

I have not had any issues so far. I agree that if you are buying a second hand bike that for peace of mind you should give it a full service including belts to give yourself a starting point.

There is a better choice of belts now, not just Ducati's own, which is good.

Each to their own with this sort of stuff.

Yorkie

[ValiantBoy]

Just got my S4RS back after belts service, tune-up, MOT etc etc etc... £900. Nearly fell off my perch. Think it's running worse than before, but it's been 6 months since I rode it, practically impossible to ride under 4k rpm. Will have to do some investigations.

[Dave G]

I changed my S2r belts two years ago and have no intention of changing them until at least next summer. I do believe the two year interval was very much a case of Ducati playing safe with lifespan after a few issues in earlier decades with older tech belts, this may have continued but in the meantime the belts have become stupidly expensive for a 'service' item and I think Ducati may be realising this, also combined with the fact that continuing to insist on two year replacement they were feeding the widely believed impression of Ducati unreliability and seriously high service costs, most oe belts now seem to make up quite a percentage of this high cost.

I have oe belts waiting to be fitted to my sc but the rise in price of these has made me think a complete dealer service history might be wiser, I will take the belts and ask for them to be fitted though.

(Valiantboy that sounds like a gearing thing than a specific engine issue, check out a smaller front or larger rear sprocket for better low rev/speed behaviour)

[Yorkie]

I have started to use these belts, absolutely no issues whatsoever:

http://www.exactuk.com/about-exactfit-cam-belts/

Yorkie

[Yorkie]

Just got my S4RS back after belts service, tune-up, MOT etc etc etc... £900. Nearly fell off my perch. Think it's running worse than before, but it's been 6 months since I rode it, practically impossible to ride under 4k rpm. Will have to do some investigations.

For that price I would have taken it back and made them sort it out!

Yorkie

[Flip]

Obviously the failure of a belt is fairly major and may result in injury which the company has to be very mindful of but for the most part it is all to do with reducing the perceived cost of ownership which in turn will increase sales.

Ducati (and it's once Cagiva parents) have done this a few times over the years- you only have to go back to the early '90's to see the original 2v motors service intervals were 1860 miles (3000km) which included a belt tension and a valve clearance check.

A schedule that in this day and age would be totally unacceptable and just as it did back then, make Ducati ownership a thing for the rich and eccentric few.

But take a look at the tolerance of the valve clearances - this is where it gets interesting as you will see they gradually get wider as the miles between checks increase.

A coincidence?

I think not- so you can all make your own minds up about the whys and how much's, along with thinking just how sweet your 2v runs after being shimmed but probably don't notice it gradually getting rougher over the longer service intervals Ducati have kindly given us.

Would you want to check/adjust them (or worse- pay a Ducati technician to do it) a couple of times a year?

Probably not.....but it makes good reading :biggrin:

http://www.sigmaperformance.com/service-interval.html

[Darren69]

I do think £900 quid for a service is way too much. Depends on what they did of course but I don't imagine a 'stretta engine is that much different from a 'quattro service wise.

My last major service was just over £500 in 2015 including 4 hours labour and belts £48 quid each, oil filter and fuel filter (oil was £60), check cam timing and valve adjustment, strip, inspect and grease slipper clutch, new fluids, fit new clutch slave (supplied) and full check over and full diagnostics check.

[jerry]

Just got my S4RS back after belts service, tune-up, MOT etc etc etc... £900. Nearly fell off my perch. Think it's running worse than before, but it's been 6 months since I rode it, practically impossible to ride under 4k rpm. Will have to do some investigations.


who did it ???? seems a ripoff

[emzedder]

I used to know someone that supported Ducati's on and off track told me that breakage was most likely during startup ... in the early 90's on 888's etc this was mainly the case. The belts sitting in same position for long periods makes a difference ... his mantra, the more you use them all year round the lower the risk. They can last for many miles/years just need to check condition same as any other component.

[ValiantBoy]

They suggested replacing the stock air filter with a K&N; surprised this wasn't done by previous owner(s) as it's got the airbox mod (whole top sliced off), race ECU and full termis. Put the K&N on and it runs a whole lot better, lumpyness now under 3k instead of 4 which makes a huge difference in traffic.

Just looking at the breakdown, 545 was for the service, then another 3.5 hours of labour to sort out the bad running (adjusted TPS, balanced throttle bodies, scan ECU and delete error codes etc. another £25 for antifreeze.... then add 20% VAT... chaging chaging chaging = £900. hourly rate £45. Guess I'm paying London prices too.

[Darren69]

3.5 hours of faffing to deduce that you had the wrong Air filter? Jeez, I think they may have been going strictly by the official line of trying everything in the manuals first, besides the bleeding obvious?

Don't expect the >3k rpm roughness to be sorted, they're all like that, all the standard maps (OE & DP) are the same below 3k (EU regs). They're too lean. You'll need a custom map to fully sort that problem out.

[Dirty]

They suggested replacing the stock air filter with a K&N; surprised this wasn't done by previous owner(s) as it's got the airbox mod (whole top sliced off), race ECU and full termis. Put the K&N on and it runs a whole lot better, lumpyness now under 3k instead of 4 which makes a huge difference in traffic.

Just looking at the breakdown, 545 was for the service, then another 3.5 hours of labour to sort out the bad running (adjusted TPS, balanced throttle bodies, scan ECU and delete error codes etc. another £25 for antifreeze.... then add 20% VAT... chaging chaging chaging = £900. hourly rate £45. Guess I'm paying London prices too.

Which garage did you use? Metroplis?

[ValiantBoy]

Not Metropolis. But would rather not say. Just to clarify, it was running badly when I took it in, so the 3,5 hours was to sort that out (was popping badly and dropping to one 1 cylinder, not sure what caused that as it was running fine when I put it into storage for the winter, ran it up to temp every two or three weeks, then in March, just started running badly. thought it was condensation and/or old fuel, but they said the rear cylinder was way too rich and throttle bodies not balanced).

Good to know they are all a bit rough under 3k.

[jerry]

with a custom map it wtll run sweet down to 2k revs smooth in traffic and transitions thru gears much cleaner

[Darren69]

Metropolis nah, JHP? Just High Prices?

[Darren69]

with a custom map it wtll run sweet down to 2k revs smooth in traffic and transitions thru gears much cleaner

Yep it will be sorted at that. Don't run it on diesel though! :)