Duc owner looking for a first Monster

[norvin998]

Hello to all at UKMOC,

I'm a current Duc owner with a more track orientated collection - 600NCR TT2, Harris 750 & 600 F2 Pantah - and a love of all Italian V & L twin machinery. My last road V was an Aprilia 1000 & my next will be a 2 valve Monster....but which?

My experience is mainly of carbed bikes & I like the simplicity of early Monsters which are very similar mechanically to my '80s Pantah based bikes. I've had injected bikes such as the Aprilia 1000 & BMW K100RS & my one complaint about them all was bad throttle response at low speed/small throttle openings - a bit jerky & on/off which isnt idea in the wet and tiring if caught in slow moving traffic.

So my opening post is to ask about your experience of injected & carbed Monsters. My search has started with carbed, big valve 900s up to '96 but later injected models could be a consideration. Probably no later than '05 for styling reasons.

I'm in the Manchester area.
Cheers
Mike

[slob]

Hello and welcome.
1000ie 03-05 only, you'll get the same DS motor in s2r1000 but with a single sided swinger.
Throttle can be a bit on/off especially just above idle. Both share the same Marelli 5.9 ECU, the answer is to get it properly mapped/dynoed

[Mr Gazza]

Hello and welcome.

I'm right with you with your taste in motorcycles... Good man. :mand:

I had a very low mileage '98 carbed M900 when it was only three years old and now I run a 2000 M900Sie.

The '98 was smooth for the most part except when I let the revs go down too far. I didn't have a rev-counter, so that was a bit of a saving grace in not trying to keep any particular revs on... I just went by ear and everything was fine. A bit of clutch slipping was needed at walking pace in traffic and the like. All Monsters seem to be a bit like that though, they tend to be high geared... It's not a big problem.

My injection 900 is a slightly different animal. Instant pick up from any speed provided I am not in 6th at 20mph (why would you?).
I would not describe it as jerky in any way, but it is very crisp, much more so than the carb version and much more power too.
Carful throttle control is always needed at low speeds and low revs with any machine and the ie is no different except that there's a rev-counter to confuse your ears, it needs to show no lower than about 2000rpm or the chain will start letting it's presence be felt.

The sub 2000rpm area of all Monsters will always be the hardest to set up for, it's just slightly different ways to do this for Carbs or injectors... The chain is important for both (as you will know)

Having had both I prefer My Sie. I like it very much.:mand:
I agree with Slob too...If you have an M900 or M900ie on your shopping list, then definitely add a M1000 to that, preferably an M1000Sie.

[fretless]

greetings

check out threads for evo1100 - lots on low running and how to improve EFI

fretless

[norvin998]

Thanks for the info so far. The low down tractability on my Aprilia was particularly bad if you got caught in too high a gear at low speed. 3rd was the "30 limit" gear. No flywheel to smooth the delivery under 3k but that did mean pick up was instant when you were in the right gear at the right revs & road speed. My "old school" roots in Brit twins that would pull in top from tickover were hard to shake off.

My TT2 has NCR7 cams & the power delivery with them begins at 6k, anything less showing & it bogs so it'll be a relief to ride something rather less demanding!

I'll add to my "short list" the ie machines you both mention. Looking at whats on the market he early 900s are getting quite expensive so the later ie bikes might be even better value for money.

Cheers
Mike

[Mr Gazza]

Brit Twins Eh? So we are definitely on the same page.... I had lots of those.

I once saw 500rpm on the tach' in gear, on my TR6P (single carb 650 Triumph, ex Police).

It purred away from that too with no clutch work and up a very slight incline.

I too had to adjust that expectation out when The Ducatis came along. But they beat the old 'uns hands down in every other respect.... I don't think you will be very long falling very much in love with a 900 Monster (Or 1000)

btw I also know what a NorVin is, but I don't think I've ever seen one in the flesh.
We like pictures on this forum, especially interesting old Ducatis... :thumbsup:

Try tinypic or postimage to host your pictures. Just paste up the line of text "For forums and message boards" onto your post.

[utopia]

Gotta say ... I love my carby 750.
You may want more though (or at least, think you do).
But if a test ride comes up, I'd suggest taking one out.
Motor is nicely tractable and wet clutch is easy to live with.

Also, with the carbed monsters, carb icing is an issue if you ride it anytime after October.

[norvin998]

Brit twins - still got my first "big bike", a '59 Norton Domi but its got more in common with an industrial engine than any bike made in the last 25 years. Had all the Norton twins including the 850 Commando...which had all the faults of the Domi & a few more unique to it. Charming old nails suitable for the odd potter about in the height of summer on the backroads. I'm looking for a bike to use on todays roads from Mway to unclassified....and less (daren't say no) need for a bag of spanners & spares on every spin out.

The capacity question is a good one. Do I need 900? Probably not. Top end doesnt really concern me (90 on a naked bike is more than enough for me) but I do like "a bit in hand" & love a bike with plenty of "midrange" poke.

Couple of pix of my current Ducs & Norvin should show up on this link:

https://postimg.org/gallery/vcikkly6/

[utopia]

Hmmm...
90 on a naked bike is enough for me too ... apart from the occasional squirt on a particularly fast stretch.
And I am still pleasantly surprised by how much shove the 750 has when I give it the last quarter of throttle (which I otherwise seldom use) from 80/85.
I wouldn't want to encourage you to get something which may fall short of your needs but I can say that I've had my 750 for 10yrs now, its been my only big roadster during that period and I have no intention of ever parting with it and see no real need for a bigger motor (unless maybe I was contemplating a long distance jaunt on faster roads).

The carb icing is a real pain in the colder months though and I will be fitting Keihin FCRs, which I'm told are less prone to it.
Dosing the fuel with Pro.FST cures it, but only if you have some handy at fill-up time, so longer winter journeys can be a problem.

[Pedro]

Hello and welcome.
1000ie 03-05 only, you'll get the same DS motor in s2r1000 but with a single sided swinger.
Throttle can be a bit on/off especially just above idle. Both share the same Marelli 5.9 ECU, the answer is to get it properly mapped/dynoed

What Slob says, a well sorted 1000DS is a thing of joy, easy to get sorted too. One of Ducati's great engines

[Drumnagorrach]

And it just so appens ,that I have a 2006 S2R 1000 that I will be parting with shortly .
Better throttle control than the old M900ie I had before.:)

[Drumnagorrach]

Hmmm...
90 on a naked bike is enough for me too ... apart from the occasional squirt on a particularly fast stretch.
And I am still pleasantly surprised by how much shove the 750 has when I give it the last quarter of throttle (which I otherwise seldom use) from 80/85.
I wouldn't want to encourage you to get something which may fall short of your needs but I can say that I've had my 750 for 10yrs now, its been my only big roadster during that period and I have no intention of ever parting with it and see no real need for a bigger motor (unless maybe I was contemplating a long distance jaunt on faster roads).

The carb icing is a real pain in the colder months though and I will be fitting Keihin FCRs, which I'm told are less prone to it.
Dosing the fuel with Pro.FST cures it, but only if you have some handy at fill-up time, so longer winter journeys can be a problem.

Had a few issues with carb icing on my XT on the very cold mornings ( -8--10 deg C )
Pro FST has cured it . The XT has a twin choke carb ,one slide and the other diaphragm operated by engine vacuum ,and thats the culprit , diaphragms are just too good at keeping a steady high vacuum in the inlet tract and that causes the freezing .

[norvin998]

And it just so appens ,that I have a 2006 S2R 1000 that I will be parting with shortly .
Better throttle control than the old M900ie I had before.:)

A long way from me and maybe beyond my means but please mail me direct when you are thinking of selling:

mcgarry.mike@virgin.net

[norvin998]

And I am still pleasantly surprised by how much shove the 750 has when I give it the last quarter of throttle (which I otherwise seldom use) from 80/85.
I wouldn't want to encourage you to get something which may fall short of your needs but I can say that I've had my 750 for 10yrs now, its been my only big roadster during that period and I have no intention of ever parting with it and see no real need for a bigger motor (unless maybe I was contemplating a long distance jaunt on faster roads).


I have had an 80s 750 engine in a TT frame which had a good turn of speed on the track and was road registered. A good engine for the road having better mid range power than the 600 & a little more "up top" too.

Its rare to see a 750 Monster for sale - lots of 600/620 & 695/6/796/800s about but a big hole in the middle where the 750 sat. Are they so nice no one wants to sell them :)

[Mr Gazza]

Just spent quite a few minutes rolling my weary eyeballs all over the picture of your NorVin.... It's brilliant mate, can I borrow it?. I hope it's got a big open mega on the other side just like Ogri's.

[norvin998]

Mega would look good but Vinny cams work best on a straight pipe so thats what it wore most of the time....sold it to a pal quite recently. Note the sneaky Italian "bobby dodger" on the end of the pipe - a hinged baffle operated from the bars. Duc content in there too - my old 750 TT1

https://postimg.org/gallery/vcikkly6/

[Flip]

Well I'm a fan of the carby bikes too having owned my 900 for almost eighteen years now (my mate bought it new in '97) and love it more than ever- they definitely have a certain charm while still able to give a fair turn of speed.

The carbs make them simple with the lack of electronics so give you the ease of spanner twiddling should you wish/need to and allthough carb icing can give the occasional glitch it is not caused just by the cold (as a lot of people think)- it has to be damp too or least moisture in the air along with the cold. So going out on a cold crisp day shouldn't give problems and most of the bikes fitted with an oil cooler should have a tap on one of the lines that routes the oil to the float bowls to keep them toasty warm (obviously the engine needs to get warmed up before this system works properly).

I do agree that the injected bikes are probably a bit easier to live with though (electric fuel pump instead of the horrible vacuum item on carb'd bikes) and certainly a little more civilised in slow traffic and as others have said, the original M1000DS motor is indeed a peach and will provide much entertainment from involuntary wheelies out of second gear round-a-bouts. I don't know if that was tamed on the S2R models or not and it is personal choice whether or not you like the single sided swing arm.

As you say the early bikes are starting to fetch money now which is both good and bad but I don't suppose it will be too long before the rest of the original shape (despite them subtly changing around 2000) models will head that way too in the not to distant future.

Another thing worth thinking about is, while parts availability is not a problem (Moto Rapido are excellent for genuine items) there are not so many aftermarket parts available anymore with genuine Ducati Performance or Road Racing 'period' items being quite rare and fetching stupid money on eBay and the like.

Here's my old Monster to have a look at:
http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag329/fluke900/Harrier%20amp%20Monster_zpsjloa0bye.jpg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/fluke900/media/Harrier%20amp%20Monster_zpsjloa0bye.jpg.html)

Loving the Norvin and the TT is just beautiful so here's my old girl too:
http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag329/fluke900/IMG_2264_zps22d68c83.jpg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/fluke900/media/IMG_2264_zps22d68c83.jpg.html)

[norvin998]

Thanks Flip,
I'm pretty "old school" - happier changing jets than mapping - so a carb model does appeal. I was reminded today when I went for a brief spin on a rather peaky 2st Honda MR250 I own just how tiring a motor can be if the power delivery doesn't suit the conditions. A more softly tuned Monster would have been ideal, involuntary wheelies would not have been appreciated!

Your 900 looks like the kind of bike I'd buy, ticks all my boxes. Nice single Duc too, trackday or racing?
Cheers
Mike

[Flip]

Thanks Flip,
I'm pretty "old school" - happier changing jets than mapping - so a carb model does appeal. I was reminded today when I went for a brief spin on a rather peaky 2st Honda MR250 I own just how tiring a motor can be if the power delivery doesn't suit the conditions. A more softly tuned Monster would have been ideal, involuntary wheelies would not have been appreciated!

Your 900 looks like the kind of bike I'd buy, ticks all my boxes. Nice single Duc too, trackday or racing?
Cheers
Mike

I got the impression you must know your way around a box of spanners considering the bikes you own and yes, there is a certain charm to the carb'd Monsters but as I say the injected bikes are probably a bit easier to live with from a smoothness point of view but a lot depends where and what you will be using it for I guess but properly sorted and they seldom give trouble- or at least mine hasn't other than a few age related issues which I have now sorted out.

I know what you're saying about the involuntary wheelies, Pedro will be able to advise more on the M1000 coz he had a beaut of one and Slob has a lovely road legal but track based one.

Some time ago I had an S4 along side my 900 for a short while which was a pussy cat compared with the M1000 I rode. Similar power output but they make it in completely different ways.

Care is still needed in slippery conditions on a 900 though as they can spin up the back wheel without too much encouragement mostly down to the dry clutch not appreciating being slipped like oil covered plates. But you want a dry clutch don't you?

Thanks for the comments on my 900 but after owning it almost eighteen years and just about got it to where I want it (I think Monsters are always a little bit 'work in progress') there's no way it's going to be sold.

On that and out of interest though, what sort of money are you looking at spending and how far are you prepared to travel- you never know what people will see local to them.

The little single is a 1965 Mach 1 by the way and yes started racing with the CRMC in 2012- but now only when I can as I have a wife that works most weekends and a four year old daughter so I have to sieve through the possible meetings I can make.

[norvin998]

Sorry if I gave the impression I was making a move for your bike - I know from your posts its very close to your heart. I meant to say its the type of bike I could see myself ending up with. One I could fettle into the shape I like them to be in over a period.

The only time my bikes have seen a dealers is for MoT or service under fear of warranty withdrawal on the new ones I've had. Seldom have I had a bike running better after a dealer has "serviced" it and a bellypan full of oil & a filter canister after 100 yards was my least encouraging service visit.

I've got wet & dry clutches on my current Ducs & the dry NCR one is far more tolerant of abuse than the wet Duc one but the dry is on the track and its used to keep the revs up & in the power band like you would on a 2 stroke rather than being used to feed power in gradually as you might need on a road bike. The wet clutch will allow the bike to be trickled along at walking pace. If the Monster dry clutch is in or out then maybe I need to reconsider?

I'm realistic as far as £s and these days around £3k would be ok for the right bike. We've all seen £4-5k "investment" Monsters on "the bay" & one 900 in particular has been there for at least 3 months with a dealer waiting for a bite. I'd spend my money with an enthusiastic owner anyday before another rip-off dealer on the "classic" bandwagon.

[Flip]

Nah you didn't give that impression- I was just saying.

The dry clutch is a little on or off and although I haven't treated mine too preciously I don't slip it much either and it's now coming up to have done 30k miles. It's pretty rattly though where the plate tangs and the basket is worn (I've just filed down the high points a couple of times to keep it all moving smoothly) but the friction material still within limits.

The is always the 800 as a kind of halfway house- fuel injected mind but worth considering as a little more refined and about the same power as a carb'd 900 also with a wet clutch.

But here's a couple on the 'bay you may or may not have seen- both a way from you but maybe a local club member could have a preliminary look over to see if worth travelling for?

Both are un-tail chopped (wait for Dirty to comment) but both need a little time spent on them as well but nothing too drastic from the photos.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1994-DUCATI-900-MONSTER-M900-/262748230603?hash=item3d2d03d3cb:g:Bu0AAOSw4shX91I B

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ducati-M800-MONSTER-/122245700941?hash=item1c76695d4d:g:AHQAAOSwHMJYPGK W

[norvin998]

The dry-clutch "jangle" is familiar to me, I quite like it!

I have the two bikes you mention on my "watch list". They look OK with the black 2004 having the edge mileage wise & the red one being nearer to my ideal in many ways. Both needing a bit of "fettling" as you say but thats part of the pleasure of owning them to me. Getting them to be "my" bike.

There's another on C&C which looks reasonable:

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C787604

[Flip]

Yes I like the rattle too and think it's part of the Ducati character- plus it still makes me laugh when someone thinks there's something wrong with it!

If I had to choose one of the three I would probably go for the one on C & C as it is the 'S' version (cue Mr Gazza to sing their praises) where they loaded it up with the Öhlins rear shock, ally swing arm (which all the earlier 900's had), the floating rear brake (not sure if people can tell the difference but they go for silly money when they come on eBay) and the extra touches which is a bonus if you like it.

I'm personally not a fan of the high level pipes but at least it hasn't had a tail chop so doesn't look like a wheelbarrow :D. Of course pipes are easy to change (you even get away with just low link pipes) and you could see those to fund replacements.

The mileage of the '94 bike wouldn't put me off as long as I was happy it hadn't been too abused as Ducati's prefer to be used than sat around which I am sure you already know and ultimately it will probably be the most valuable in years to come. But it does need some fettling for sure with it looking like it is still running rubber brake lines so expect those to be shot along with a fair bit of the other rubber based parts (fuel lines and pump parts etc.).

A closer look at the frame particularly on the near side appears to show evidence of the dreaded battery leak which a lot of early bikes suffered from as the vent tube often came loose and allowed the acid to run down the frame and engine case.

The original frame colour is notoriously difficult to match (Albie will be able to help as he's currently restoring a '93 model) and without it being that right colour looks wrong in my opinion when the rest of the bike remains close to original.

I guess a lot depends on how much you want to do- assuming it is only cosmetic and replacement parts rather than mechanical issues it would certainly be prime for a Winter refresh which is what I did with mine over the last two years.

Plenty here have gone much more into the restoration than I did with some far better threads (use the search function if you haven't looked) than mine here:

http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=51743&highlight=Monster+refresh

http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=54087&highlight=refresh

[norvin998]

A very thorough refurb! I can see we are similarly minded when it comes to our bikes - do them right or don't bother. It'd be good to buy one which had been treated similarly well rather than do it all myself. I've got several projects on the go already - Harris "Rocker arm" TT1 being the most appropriate one to mention on this forum - & that needs to be finished for this coming season so time to fettle up a Monster as well would be limited.

From a styling point of view Im not keen on the high level or "2 on one side" versions. I wonder why the 2:1 which seems to be the favoured system on the '80s twins went out of favour? Maybe it was just fashion or was it a technical reason? My Aprilia had an under-seat silencer which was very neat but I guess that would be hard to engineer into a Monster ...or maybe someone has?

[Dirty]

My Aprilia had an under-seat silencer which was very neat but I guess that would be hard to engineer into a Monster ...or maybe someone has?

I've got a Monster (M600) with an under-seat exhaust. Built by someone else.

[Mr Gazza]

If I had to choose one of the three I would probably go for the one on C & C as it is the 'S' version (cue Mr Gazza to sing their praises) where they loaded it up with the Öhlins rear shock, ally swing arm (which all the earlier 900's had), the floating rear brake (not sure if people can tell the difference but they go for silly money when they come on eBay) and the extra touches which is a bonus if you like it.

Okay. The "S" models do have a bit extra. I can only speak with any authority for the 2000 M900Sie. The "S" started officially quite late on, about 97 I think? The spec varies from year to year. A notable feature of the early ones was floating cast iron front discs.
The 2000 M900Sie has Fully adjustable Showa forks, Ohlins remote reservoir fully adjustable rear shock, Carbon front mudguard and hugger, plus a little extension of the 'guard below the swing arm, rubber covered footrests instead of bare ally and of course the floating rear caliper.
The benefit of a floating rear caliper is often debated. I noticed that there was no dive when I braked hard before I realised that my rear brake was different or special.... So I believe there is a tangible difference, of which I approve. The maintenance on the floater is a little higher than conventional, I have replaced the rose joints on the torque rod a couple of times and also re-bushed the caliper bracket recently, but I certainly wouldn't convert it back to a rigid caliper.
The later "S" models were never quite to the 2000 spec, I guess it was just too expensive to keep up. I think the 2000 was a "Millennium Special".

S's aside there was a little evolution within the "old shape". the originals had a "hoop" on the rear suspension, which you can see in tasteful yellow on Flip's bike. That disappeared in 2001 and was replaced by a push rod further forward and out of sight.
Tank and seat shapes changed subtly so that some years don't interchange.
Some carbed 900's came with "750" heads with smaller valves. The large valve heads are identified by a "V2" stamp. All ie 900's have "V2" heads.

Injection came along in 2000 for the 900's but the 750's kept their carbs until later, 2002 I think?

[utopia]

Lincolnshire rep "Pooh" has grafted a complete superbike rear half onto his monster.
That has an underseat can.

I've always fancied a single can system on my 750 and I'm currently planning to modify an old and rather scarred, big-bore Sil Moto single can system, originally from a 900.
I'm not too fussed about underseat though.
Rather like the asymmetric look of the single can on one side, tbh.
I think Pompone also sells a single can system via his Desmoperformanceparts outfit.
Why carry the extra weight and complication of a second can ? ...is how I look at it.
Unless you want it quiet, that is. :)

[Darren69]

S's aside there was a little evolution within the "old shape". the originals had a "hoop" on the rear suspension, which you can see in tasteful yellow on Flip's bike. That disappeared in 2001 and was replaced by a push rod further forward and out of sight.
Tank and seat shapes changed subtly so that some years don't interchange.
Some carbed 900's came with "750" heads with smaller valves. The large valve heads are identified by a "V2" stamp. All ie 900's have "V2" heads.

Injection came along in 2000 for the 900's but the 750's kept their carbs until later, 2002 I think?

Also of note the later frame without the hoop benefitted from thinner walled but slightly larger tubes with additional bracing especially around the headstock, so although not any lighter the later frames were stronger/stiffer and offered supposedly better handling,

There is a rather good book available:-
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/The-Ducati-Monster-Bible-New-Updated-Revised-Edition-Bible-Wiley-New-I-/122229435205?hash=item1c75712b45:g:fwwAAOSwcUBYLbf J

the latest edition has the 1200 on the cover:-
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ducati-Monster-Bible-Ian-Falloon-NEW-Hardback-Updated-and-Revised-Edition-/381853262780?hash=item58e83a63bc:g:jboAAOSwXeJYLxu 6

Something for the xmas list maybe?

[norvin998]

the latest edition has the 1200 on the cover:-
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ducati-Monster-Bible-Ian-Falloon-NEW-Hardback-Updated-and-Revised-Edition-/381853262780?hash=item58e83a63bc:g:jboAAOSwXeJYLxu 6



Thanks for the link.

My first present to me....I have one of his earlier titles "Belt Drive Two Valve Ducatis" which majors on the 80s twins & over my years of owning them I've found it an invaluable reference. Think it might be in reprint now (old copies were fetching £100+!) & its a great read for anyone interested in the development of the 2 valve from 500 GP racer through the Pantahs, Pasos & TTs finishing with the early 90s models & Superlights.

Back to Monsters....in trawling through the net I note in the USA early 2000s bikes suffered from the plastic tanks being attacked by their "gasoline". I had similar problems with glassfibre TT2 tanks and eventually got alloy replicas made after fooling with lining potions.

I'm wondering if thats due to the high % of ethanol used in some states or is it a problem that manifested itself in the UK with our 5% brews?

I use a little test-tube like "ethanol meter" to test the gas we use on track days for the evil alcohol & it proves we still have "pure" premium fuels here if you look for them. Is that the norm for Monster owners - use a premium brew like V-power which appears to be ethanol free? I believe different areas of the country have different formulations due to the ability or otherwise of the local distributors to add ethanol to the base fuel.

[Dirty]

I'm wondering if thats due to the high % of ethanol used in some states or is it a problem that manifested itself in the UK with our 5% brews?

I use a little test-tube like "ethanol meter" to test the gas we use on track days for the evil alcohol & it proves we still have "pure" premium fuels here if you look for them. Is that the norm for Monster owners - use a premium brew like V-power which appears to be ethanol free? I believe different areas of the country have different formulations due to the ability or otherwise of the local distributors to add ethanol to the base fuel.

http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=54589

http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=54542

[Darren69]

Yes, lots of issues with plastic tanks. The S2R and later S4R models and some others (695?) and the later generation 696/796/1100 and Sportclassics all had plastic tanks and as such inherit those issues with tanks swelling and distorting.

[norvin998]

Good threads - thanks. I've taken to draining alloy tanks fitted with brass taps or taps with seals of unknown materials along with all carb bowls since I had £100+ worth of brass jets /spray tubes & needles ruined by leaving the float bowls half full (run dry until the engine stopped). Its not the ethanol that attacks brass components its the acetic acid produced when the ethanol is worked on by air-borne bacteria to produce acid. We are more familiar with the process involved when a half finished bottle of red "goes sour" when left for a few days. Not that I'm in the habit of saving some for tomorrow.... Just goes to prove once a bottle is opened it should be finished off and once the bikes are stored get rid of every vestige of petrol in the system.

I have no experience of storing injected bikes with petrol in the system, it must be a risky business considering the cost of pumps & injectors?