Hagon Progressive Fork Springs

[Christy]

Has anyone fitted Hagonprogressive fork springs? I have been looking at replacing the fork springs on my 93 M900. I was looking at Hyperpro springs but noticed Hagon make some too. At £85 they look good value, but I haven't heard any reports on them.

[Darren69]

I don't have the Hagons but I have the Hyperpros fitted in my S4. I'd had really good results fitting hyperpros to standard tired unadjustable forks on Jap bikes before so I thought as I was replacing my forks like for like for some that were better cosmetically I'd do the same on the S4, just to freshen things up. Do you have adjustable forks?

Only thing I would say is that if you do you need to back everything off and then dial it in again, reset static sag etc. The settings that worked well for the linear springs didn't work so well for the progressive springs [they felt too harsh on the rebound especially] so needed a bit of tweaking to get better. I suspect this is due to the new spring and also the new spring doing some of the work the valves did previously.

I hasten to add this was with the Showa forks which both legs work the same, if you have Marzocchi forks which were fitted to some early Monsters, there may be more of a problem since one leg does damping and the other does rebound damping. I don't have any experience of these btw, just pointing out some possible differences. Most who have these fitted and wanted to improve them have had them re-valved {Maxton etc] so that both work the same.

[Flip]

Hi, yes as Darren says things can definitely be improved upon- especially if you have Marzocchi forks fitted which is really the first thing to be established and then from there whether your current springs are still in spec etc.

What is it that is making you think about changing the springs if it is just because they are 'progressive,' you will find so are the originals.

Progressive are generally better for road use but getting the correct 'weight' springs for your weight (including riding gear etc.) is much more important than just a simple spring swap.

Also you must remember a lot of what you feel through the forks can be attributed to what is going on at the rear- if you're on the original shock I am sure it is way past it's best which will be adding to your woes.

My '97 900 has Marzocchis fitted which I gave to Maxton to fit their GP20 cartridges to, it's not a cheap modification but a complete world away from the standard set up was. Couple those to a good quality rear shock and as long as the rest of the suspension and chassis components are good you'll have a sweet handling Monster that doesn't want to push wide in slow corners or kick off bumps down country lanes.

[Darkness]

Has anyone fitted Hagonprogressive fork springs? I have been looking at replacing the fork springs on my 93 M900. I was looking at Hyperpro springs but noticed Hagon make some too. At £85 they look good value, but I haven't heard any reports on them.

Do you still have the non-adjustable Showa shocks that were fitted to most [All?] of the '93 monsters? If so, take care that you get the right fitment as many parts suppliers think that Showa adjustables were on these bikes as well as the later ones. The non-adjustable Showas are similar to the 750SS of the same period.

[utopia]

Hagon have been making suspension components for years.
I would imagine that their springs are as good as anyone's.
I have one of their rear shocks on my winter thumper and I have no complaints with that.
However, my understanding is that it is the harsh compression damping rather than over-stiff springs which makes the early monsters with basic suspension (like mine) a little "unforgiving" on a bumpy surface. This info comes via Maxton.
Personally, if I was going to change the springs in the hope of sorting the forks, I would probably go with Hagon if they're significantly cheaper, largely because its less money to "waste" if the result turns out not to have quite the desired effect. Not that I'm saying it will be a waste, just that it may not make enough of a difference because the fault really lies elsewhere.
That said though, matching springs to your body weight is always sensible, particularly if you're not "mr average".

[jerry]

as an example my s4 with 996 forks started off with 10.2nm standard springs way too hard , tried reccomended 8,5nm ohlins springs from kteck when they revalved the forks and ended up with Faulkners who make for F1 teams making me a special set of 7.5nm springs and now the forks work perfect with tweaks of oil and level etc

[Darren69]

First off I would determine which forks you actually have. If they are non-adjustable type then they could be either 750SS Showa type or the dreaded Marzocchi. If Marzocchi then there is very little you can do with them to improve them short of the full Maxton re-valve job that Flip had, they're a lost cause in standard guise and cannot be tuned accurately due to the fact of how they work and you could get something adjustable for a lot less even if that is a compromise. If money is no object then go for it, I would.

You can tell if you have Showa forks as the name is usually embossed on the lower leg on the inner wheel side. so not easily visible but you can see it if you look or you take the wheel out it will be obvious.

Now a swap out for SBK forks is another option but for the earlier bikes it involves a wheel swap and a lot of other stuff too which on the later bikes is a bit easier given that the wheels and axles and brakes etc are the same, still a lot of work but very tuneable with lots of aftermarket stuff available.

Now I ran a 750SS and a 900SS for a number of years and I can say that I never had any handling issues with either from the front end. The rear end of those is another issue altogether (less so) and not something to be concerned with as the Monster has the rear end gear there already from the 851/888 no less, but the first time I rode my S4, I'm thinking it maybe the wide bars and not being used to riding a 'roadster' but I have to do something with this its so crap, I'm gonna kill myself!

So vague at low speed, turns in well and encourages more but wandering everywhere in corners, that I could likely be examining the fauna, good for wheelies though! I mean its a 916 in a Monster chassis so it already had lots of performance and has should have lots of potential. And on paper at least all the parts were there the same as the SS that would suggest it should be great. Something was not right.

[Darren69]

Something was indeed not quite right with my new killer bike, but thanks to a bit of internet searching and this forum I eventually found the answer. And as Flip alluded and is most often the case. it was not to do with the front forks specifically! (Although contributory not entirely to blame and still far from perfect but much better re:- 748/916 perfect) and if you've ever ridden a well set up 748/916 like mine is you will know what I mean. I have got my lowly S4 Monster pretty close to that level. When I say close I mean 'pretty damn good'! There really is no other standard bike that rides even close to like a 748/916 except a well set up Monster or 851/888! :)

Looking forward to Katos latest creation though!

[Flip]

The other thing for you to bare in mind is the fact you have a '93- a fast becoming classic and sort after model if it's anywhere near original.

Something worth looking at is if it is then personally I would be a little sympathetic in what I did with it- one beauty of the Maxton conversion, is outwardly they remain the same which is why they can be used on classic race bikes and still comply with eligibility rules (my own 1965 Mach 1 runs Maxton suspension front and rear).

Alternatively, for another 'period' type swap you could try and track down a pair of 888 Showa's that will drop straight in the original yokes- although you will have to play a little with the geometry because of the fork top adjusters and they too will probably need a good service etc. being a similar age to your Monster.

However, if it's been tail chopped etc. and messed around with a lot then it's pretty much fair game unless it's recoverable and anything's possible.

[DrD]

The other thing for you to bare in mind is the fact you have a '93- a fast becoming classic and sort after model if it's anywhere near original.
Glad my '93 is not sought after then!

[Darren69]

Good pointers, but anything with 888 attached is going to carry a heavy premium. Best bet is to get hold of some 900SS forks circa '93 on which are pretty much the same anyway- to whenever they stopped making the original shape one '98? and went all electronic IE and weird Terblanche styling. Same spec as the later monsters anyway as far as I know. They are a great bit of kit and work well with both the SS and Monster. You may also find some Aprillia or maybe even Moto Guzzi have the same forks but cheaper. I can't believe I swore and said the A and M word on the forum, sorry!

[Christy]

Thanks for your replies. My monster is an early one with the non adjustable Showa forks. My bike is mostly standard with just over 8000 miles on the clock so I don't want to mess with it too much. I am planning on servicing the forks as the oil in them is probably what it came out of the factory with. I thought about changing the springs as the front is very stiff and the bike runs wide in corners. It may be just the damping caused by tired oil. The Hagon springs are £30 cheaper than Hyper pros. I'm tempted to give them a try. I just wondered if anyone else had used them.

The rear shock feels ok, I expect it would benefit from a rebuild after 23 years, but I Will look at the front first.

[Flip]

Glad my '93 is not sought after then!

Ah crap!!! :hissy:

You all knew what I meant.......

Can I blame it on auto-correct???

[Flip]

Thanks for your replies. My monster is an early one with the non adjustable Showa forks. My bike is mostly standard with just over 8000 miles on the clock so I don't want to mess with it too much. I am planning on servicing the forks as the oil in them is probably what it came out of the factory with. I thought about changing the springs as the front is very stiff and the bike runs wide in corners. It may be just the damping caused by tired oil. The Hagon springs are £30 cheaper than Hyper pros. I'm tempted to give them a try. I just wondered if anyone else had used them.

The rear shock feels ok, I expect it would benefit from a rebuild after 23 years, but I Will look at the front first.

If it's running wide, have you tried raising the rear up a bit?

It can make a huge difference and costs nothing but time- just a case of winding out the rose joints at the bottom of the 'hoop'.

As for the rear shock it was probably not that great to begin with and I'm not sure if it even is rebuildable but after 23 years if none of the linkages have been looked at then I would be doing some stripping and greasing over the Winter months.

I did quite a refresh of my '97 900 some last year and some this and it has made a massive difference to the handling.
I'll have owned it eighteen years in the Spring and it's never being sold so for me it was an easy decision to spend the money on it.

There's lots of rebuild threads on here to get some good information from but here's my postings:

http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=51743&highlight=build+thread

[Darren69]

Flip stole my thunder but what I was eluding to was to raise the rear. Either wind out the rod ends or fit a rise kit/spacers. I think Luigi Moto do a pair of spacers for about £25 and the difference is remarkable. At least in my case for my S4 fitting a longer strut from a 999 sorted the worst of the wayward handling issues.

[utopia]

....or lower the front.

I have non-adjustable Showas.
I think mine would be a later type though .. mine have the plastic clips holding the mudguard rather than cast lugs on the fork bottoms. I have no idea if the internals differ, or how.
They feel to me like they are too stiffly sprung for my weight (not a lot over 11 stone), but it may just be that the compression damping is too harsh .. or a combination of the two.
They have felt like that since I bought the bike, 20k miles ago ...jarringly harsh on bumpy surfaces.
If I were to try to tweek them, I would be inclined to try some softer springs. Instinctively, it feels like that's what they need ..on a rough surface (I have no problem with them on a flat road or track).
My concern here might be that with softer springs there would be more dive under braking, and I like the fact that there isn't too much at the moment.
Progressive springs might seem to be the answer here, but the question is, how progressive ? ..and from what base stiffness ?
And I have no idea what the rate of the std springs is, or if they are progressive or linear, and if so by how much, etc.
I think I'd be inclined to have the std springs out and determine their true nature, then go to Hagon with the above spiel and see what they suggest.
That's if I was going to try a cheap fix based on my own instinct, but .......
The bike is a keeper, so I plan to "Maxton" them when funds allow.
In your case, I would say that after 23 years the oil would be pretty nasty and well worth changing (no offence though .. mine's 16yrs old !).
Therefore, if you're having them apart anyway, it would be easy to swap the springs.

Bit of a waffle there, but you caught me at a tea-break.
Food for thought perhaps.
Might be bollox though ... but honest and thoughtful bollox at least.

[Flip]

Flip stole my thunder but what I was eluding to was to raise the rear. Either wind out the rod ends or fit a rise kit/spacers. I think Luigi Moto do a pair of spacers for about £25 and the difference is remarkable. At least in my case for my S4 fitting a longer strut from a 999 sorted the worst of the wayward handling issues.

Ah sorry about that but you are right it makes a massive difference to the way the bike turns. For the later bikes you can also buy an adjustable rod which gives you option to play with various settings. I am surprised the S4 didn't have one as I know Doug's 1000 DS came with one as standard.

As I put in my refresh thread, Louigi Moto do make some spacers but they lift it quite a lot and you loose the ability to back them down a bit as the rose joints need to be shortened in order to fit them. Plenty of people have though with no complaints and I may get round to trying the ones I have at some point just to see.

Anyway, I've refreshed the links in the thread I started during this years refresh instalment and you can revisit it here:

http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=54087&highlight=monster+refresh

[Flip]

....or lower the front.

I have non-adjustable Showas.
I think mine would be a later type though .. mine have the plastic clips holding the mudguard rather than cast lugs on the fork bottoms. I have no idea if the internals differ, or how.
They feel to me like they are too stiffly sprung for my weight (not a lot over 11 stone), but it may just be that the compression damping is too harsh .. or a combination of the two.
They have felt like that since I bought the bike, 20k miles ago ...jarringly harsh on bumpy surfaces.
If I were to try to tweek them, I would be inclined to try some softer springs. Instinctively, it feels like that's what they need ..on a rough surface (I have no problem with them on a flat road or track).
My concern here might be that with softer springs there would be more dive under braking, and I like the fact that there isn't too much at the moment.
Progressive springs might seem to be the answer here, but the question is, how progressive ? ..and from what base stiffness ?
And I have no idea what the rate of the std springs is, or if they are progressive or linear, and if so by how much, etc.
I think I'd be inclined to have the std springs out and determine their true nature, then go to Hagon with the above spiel and see what they suggest.
That's if I was going to try a cheap fix based on my own instinct, but .......
The bike is a keeper, so I plan to "Maxton" them when funds allow.
In your case, I would say that after 23 years the oil would be pretty nasty and well worth changing (no offence though .. mine's 16yrs old !).
Therefore, if you're having them apart anyway, it would be easy to swap the springs.

Bit of a waffle there, but you caught me at a tea-break.
Food for thought perhaps.
Might be bollox though ... but honest and thoughtful bollox at least.

Thoughtful bollox indeed Jeff and I know we have discussed the 'Maxton way' many times and I know you won't regret it and like me wish you'd done so sooner.

The trouble with only lowering the front (pulling the forks through the yokes) you also reduce ground clearance and with standard footrests that's not a good thing.

Even with my forks pulled through the yokes as well as the rear jacked up the bottom of my belly pan has a few scars from where it's touched down when pushing on down (very) bumpy country lanes but since the suspension has been fully sorted the bike has never felt like it was out of shape- a little lively perhaps but that's the way I like it.

[jerry]

The S4 is known to have very cheap 9non adjustable0 fully adjustable showas with a rebound circuit that does nothing as it does not even reah to the cartridges , ,, thats what makes the S4 such apparently doggy handling as standard
i tried numerous mods to the standard forks wasted lots of time and money and ended up using SBK 996 forks with kteck valves and custom springs now the bike handles like a dream and is compliant and comfy as well ,, but it was a long battle getting it set up right

[Flip]

i tried numerous mods to the standard forks wasted lots of time and money and ended up using SBK 996 forks with kteck valves and custom springs now the bike handles like a dream and is compliant and comfy as well ,, but it was a long battle getting it set up right

I know exactly where you're coming from Jerry, although I didn't spend a fortune on mine as with the old Marzocchi's there isn't much you can get for them but I did spend a lot of time messing with oil weights and quantities trying to make them better over the years.

Now with the new internals the difference is night and day, completely compliant and responsive without any of the harshness of the standard items no matter what the road surface is like.

[Nottsbiker]

Snap! Going with 916 Showa's in my M900 and will look to replace the springs with softer ones and longer term maybe get them re-valved to suit my 12 stone weight. Well I think its still 12 stone....

Need to find an economic way of re-anodising my 916 fork outers first though as I have a small amount of surface corrosion near to the fork seal 'bulge' which will require careful removal to allow them to be successfully coated consistently.

[Dukedesmo]

Snap! Going with 916 Showa's in my M900 and will look to replace the springs with softer ones and longer term maybe get them re-valved to suit my 12 stone weight. Well I think its still 12 stone....



You'll definitely need lighter springs in 916 forks. Even when fitted in a 916 they'd be too heavy and a Monster is a lighter bike with less of a front-end weight bias.

I have 916 forks on mine and they were previously on a 916 - whilst they were on the 916 I had the standard 10n springs replaced with 9.5n (and Ktech valves) as they were too hard.

When I put them on the Monster (with the 9.5n springs) they were way too hard, only got an inch or so of fork travel, so I replaced them with 9n springs which are good and I'm (ahem) heavier than 12 stone...

[Flip]

Snap! Going with 916 Showa's in my M900 and will look to replace the springs with softer ones and longer term maybe get them re-valved to suit my 12 stone weight. Well I think its still 12 stone....

Need to find an economic way of re-anodising my 916 fork outers first though as I have a small amount of surface corrosion near to the fork seal 'bulge' which will require careful removal to allow them to be successfully coated consistently.

Surely unless you particularly want 916 forks in your Monster by the time you consider their cost (you could sell and use the cash to have the originals sorted) and had them re-valved with new springs etc. it would be more economic to have Maxton do their wonders with your originals?

Also don't the Monster's yokes need to be machined out on one and shimmed on the other to accept 916 forks?

Just to let you know regards the anodising- personally I think you would be best doing the remedial work to the corrosion yourself before sending them to be anodised especially if it has the machining lines as they are likely to be removed during the clean up or you might decide to live with it and just turn them so it doesn't show so bad.

Anyway, when Maxton fitted their GP20 cartridges to my Marzocchi's I also had the tubes re-anodised (Öhlins gold) by the company they use and it cost £40 the pair.

There was a very small amount of corrosion on mine but it was all under the yokes so doesn't show but you're right- anodising is a very very thin plating and any imperfections will be visible afterwards.

Overall I am completely happy with everything about them from the looks to the performance, which was my main reason as the original anodising was good just a little faded.

Old gold (almost looks silver in this photo):
http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag329/fluke900/Spinney_zps1ivbxfsf.jpg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/fluke900/media/Spinney_zps1ivbxfsf.jpg.html)

Back from Maxton:
http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag329/fluke900/Maxton_zps7d90c0ba.jpg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/fluke900/media/Maxton_zps7d90c0ba.jpg.html)

[Darren69]

To fit 916 forks the monster top yoke will need to be machined and maybe the bottom one too, which imho will make a pretty weak die casting even weaker, and maybe more flexible. You'll also need a new front axle and maybe a wheel too! Of course it can be done, like Duke has on his and done well it should be good but its a hell of a lot of work for little return.

If the standard monster forks can be made to perform as well or better than the standard 916 ones with a Maxton job that might be a better option.

My 916 forks are a bit better than the ones on the Monster but not so good that I would consider swapping them. I think both could be improved (internally). I have lighter oil in both (and Hyperpro spring in the Monster) but both are still not as compliant as I would like.

[Mr Gazza]

- anodising is a very very thin plating and any imperfections will be visible afterwards.

Nope.! :chuckle:

In electroplating a deposit of metal is placed onto the cathode.

In Anodising a layer of oxide is formed on the surface of the anode, into which a dye is often added to give (in your case) a beautiful Gold colour.

But yes, pedantic comment aside. Surface imperfections/features will remain the same after anodising as it is still the surface it was before, just oxidised and coloured.:thumbsup:

And also yes, most suspension specialists will offer re-anodising to a colour of your choice as part of their service.

[Darren69]

If I were going to all that trouble then I would probably go the Ohlins route. The only reservation I have about doing that is the apparently frequent rate that fork seals on those seem to last before leaking. It may only be rumours but I have never had to change seals in Showa forks in any bike I've owned but I frequently read that people with Ohlins are having to change the seals.

[Mr Gazza]

Just get yourself a M900Sie with fully adjustable (916) Showas and Ohlins internals... :chuckle::thumbsup:

[Dukedesmo]

Also don't the Monster's yokes need to be machined out on one and shimmed on the other to accept 916 forks?




Top needs boring from 50 to 53mm, bottom needs shimming from 54 to 53mm.

There is plenty of 'meat' on the top yoke to do this without compromising strength. I got some bushes machined for the bottom yoke;

http://ducatiforum.co.uk/data/photos/l/5/5511-1427652209-ad373ea67cacb3f9d50ebe1b33dd323e.jpg

I did put a cut through them before fitting to get a good grip and the 'top hat' stops them slipping. If you got Ohlins forks you wouldn't need to shim the bottom, rather bore it to 56mm (again plenty of material there).

Cost wise it is undoubtedly more than sorting existing Monster forks but I had these forks spare and didn't have any Monster forks and as these forks had already been converted to radial brakes I also got a brake upgrade in the job.

http://ducatiforum.co.uk/data/photos/l/2/2186-1380829445-49a7396f5764d831d69a0c9df855d29a.jpg

You do need to alter the handlebar fitting though as the adjusters prevent the normal setup, I went with taller risers and flat bars to get more or less the same overall height;

http://ducatiforum.co.uk/data/photos/l/5/5022-1422050199-95ff448db9453b0f1f2689c6cb387304.jpg

[Darren69]

That is so just so sweet, and probably as good as you can get and just insane, without actually buying an RS spec bike. I have a pair of 999 4 pots and full Brembo clubman floating disks to go on mine at some point and that is more that enough for both me and the bike. I'm not a stickler for originality but I think a Foggy monster should have period stuff fitted that would/could have been on his race bike.

So 996 disks and calipers are sadly just not enough.