Ethanol test for pump petrol

[Luddite]

Further to posts on this earlier thread:

http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=54410

There is a lot of conflicting information, (and misinformation), out there on the web about which fuels may or may not contain ethanol. One thing I think we're all agreed on is that ethanol is not good news for our bikes, whether they are old 'uns with carbs that can be damaged/gummed up or newer models with plastic tanks, which may suffer distortion. We need to know the ethanol content of our fuel so that we can make an informed choice.

We're not helped in this by the fact that there is no requirement for petrol stations to show ethanol levels on the pumps.

The present position is that, under BS EN228, petrol can contain up to 10% ethanol. There is no minimum amount and no requirement to display the ethanol content. So fuel could contain anything between zero and 10% ethanol; there's no way of knowing at the pump.

At the moment, until 31 December anyway, there is a legal requirement for petrol companies to provide 'protection grade' fuel with no more than a 5% ethanol content. This is usually the super unleaded fuel but, as with the regular fuel, there is still no way of knowing whether it contains zero or 5% ethanol or something in between.

One of the (many) problems with ethanol is that it is hygroscopic i.e. it absorbs water. In practical terms that means, if you leave a tank of fuel containing ethanol for any length and time, it will bond with the moisture in the air and, once it has absorbed enough water, it will come out of suspension with the petrol and sink to the bottom of the tank (because water is heavier than petrol). This is called 'phase separation'.

Once at the bottom of the tank, it can promote corrosion, gum up fuel systems or cause plastic tanks to swell.

This process of phase separation is how proprietary ethanol removal kits like 'Ethanil' work; just add water to the fuel, wait for separation then drain off the water/ethanol mix, leaving you with neat petrol.

I thought I'd use that process to check whether the Esso Super Unleaded was, in fact, ethanol-free as I had believed.

[Luddite]

First of all, I checked some regular unleaded, which I knew should contain ethanol, just to make sure the process worked.

https://i.postimg.cc/YCXbMMw2/Unleaded-arrows-zpsmfaoq9yv.png (https://postimages.org/)

First, I poured 220ml of unleaded into a measuring cylinder then added 30ml of water. Being heavier, the water sinks to the bottom. You can see the boundary line in picture A. I then shook it up to mix in the water and left it for 30 minutes. You can see in picture B that phase separation has taken place, the ethanol has come out of suspension with the petrol, bonded with the water and sunk to the bottom. The boundary line has risen from 30ml to 40ml. This certainly proves there's ethanol in this unleaded and suggests a level of about 4.5%.

Knowing that the process works, I then tried the same thing on identical quantities of Esso super unleaded. Here are the pictures:

https://i.postimg.cc/dVJxJ5k6/Super-arrows-zpsrkjvkonc-2.png (https://postimages.org/)

Well that's reassuring! Absolutely no change whatsoever. The boundary line, as before, started at 30ml and, after a full hour (just to be sure), was still at 30ml.

This is an easy test with no special equipment needed so, if you've got any doubts about your own petrol supply, why not try it yourself?

[Fat Pete]

I found this aticale and it gives a list of Super Unleaded that do and do not contain Ethonol http://www.groups.tr-register.co.uk/wessex/ethanol-update.html
Worth a look.

Pete.

[uncle duke]

Yeh always worried about amount of ethanol in petrol (s2r plastic tank) so it was good to see that the super unleaded in your area at least doesn't seem to contain any .How old is the tr register article ?? . so i think its gotta be super unleaded for the bike as i always try to do anyway .

[Luddite]

I found this aticale and it gives a list of Super Unleaded that do and do not contain Ethonol http://www.groups.tr-register.co.uk/wessex/ethanol-update.html
Worth a look.

Pete.

I've referred to that article myself, Pete. It's been very useful but it's been around a few years now with no updates so I'm not sure how accurate the list of suppliers and ethanol proportions are. Interesting to see that the Esso ethanol level was shown as 5%, which is the amount I found in my test.

[Mr Gazza]

Good factual article Luddite, and nice graphic demonstration.. Thank you for posting this.

The "TR" article refers to 2013 in the future tense, so we can assume it is pre-2013 at least. Some of the links don't work anymore either, so I think we can assume that some of the info is out of date.?

[Scotty]

winner you can even drink the 'waste' liquid Yeah

probably cheaper than buying a bottle of vodka ~:?

[Luddite]

winner you can even drink the 'waste' liquid Yeah

probably cheaper than buying a bottle of vodka ~:?

:drunk: :booze: :dizzy: !

[DrD]

My little test on this is when I clean the RSVR Mille over winter.
Ran on BP Super Unleaded all summer and just lifted the tank with no issues, i.e. has not swollen due to ethanol

[MerlinPV12]

Excellent write up on something I had unsuccessfully pondered on, thanks!

[utopia]

Much appreciation from me too.
I've been using BP's expensive stuff in my carby M750 ever since the last big drop in petrol prices (when it became cheaper than the cheap stuff had been, so I used the excuse to "upgrade").
Tried it first in the Dommie and I was amazed to find that I could actually detect a performance benefit .. better throttle response and smoother tickover. It was unmistakeable.
I never buy anything else now but I have wondered whether it is just low ethanol or totally ethanol free.
I became suspicious that it might contain some ethanol on the morning of the Wells fish and chip run, when I suffered the first bought of carb icing for this year, until the dawn air warmed up a bit. I might have expected better of premium grade fuel (though in fairness, it was a damp, claggy morning).
I will now do the test and find out.
Inspirational ! :hail:
:D

[Kato]

Jeff
Your suspicion of Fuel icing, which is the result of water, held in suspension in the fuel, while probable generally happens only at altitude, a big problem for light aircraft possibly not for a M750 ;), what you experienced was probably a result of atmospheric conditions and not attributable to ethanol content

Basic fluid dynamics, says that a fluid's velocity must increase as it passes through a constriction in this case your carb’s venturi, causing a big temp drop

Seems that Duke’s suffer this problem a lot so it’s interesting that the Venturi effect is named after Giovanni Battista Venturi, an Italian physicist, however I digress

So the problem is caused by the sudden temperature drop due to fuel vaporisation and pressure reduction at the venturi, there is far more moisture suspended in cool air than in your fuel, the temperature drop may be as much as 30ºC and results in the atmospheric moisture forming ice, this initially blocks the smallest jets and affects the engine at low revs, the more mixture that passes through the carbs, the worse it gets, so riding fast (or revving the engine at a standstill) makes it worse, it’s not just carb’s either as Fi is not immune although nothing like as common

You of course know all this already but still might be useful to others

I agree totally that ethanol is a big problem thats not going away anytime soon, however on this occasion don't think it can be blamed.

This chart robbed from a aircraft forum is quite a nice graphical representation of the issue

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r94/kato--/asl-san_2011-02_29-en_zpshg5esvzi.jpg

In short

*Carburettored engines suffer most from icing because carburettors
cause evaporation, which cools the air.

*Icing can happen at temperatures of up to 38 degrees C.
Paradoxically, it is less likely at very cold temperatures.

*Icing is more likely at partial power settings because of the
cooling effect of a partly-closed throttle butterfly.
Right thats enough thinking for a hungover saturday morning:scratch::D

[utopia]

Yes indeed.
My comments were based on having heard it said that carb icing was less of a problem with premium fuel.
In fact my own experience leaves this question unanswered, but if there is some truth in it, it seemed reasonable to suspect the ethanol content of the regular stuff to be the root cause of its poorer performance.
I wouldn't go so far as to suggest that this is because of absorbed water in the fuel though because, as you say, there is probably more than enough moisture in the air anyway.
Therefore I was thinking that the reason could be that the ethanol might change the vapourisation characteristics of the fuel in much the same way as dosing with pro.fst does, but in the other direction.
This is merely supposition on my part though ... I have no evidence or logic to support it.
I don't even have confirmation that premium fuels are less susceptible to icing at all .. it may be urban myth, but if it isn't then it does seem likely that ethanol is involved somehow.

Anyway, this may be a thing of the past for me as I now have a box containing a shiny new pair of FCR flatslide carbs ... which I am told are far less prone to icing.
This is the hope anyway but I have to confess that once again I only have the experience reported by others on which to base my hope, rather than any hard factual analysis.
The fact that the cables pull directly on the FCR slides rather than via a butterfly/diaphragm system is reassuring though.
Anyway, we shall see.

Sorry for slight hijack there.

Hope the hangover is mellowing, Kato.

[Mr Gazza]

Let's not forget that the octane rating is essentially different between regular and premium by very definition, and have different properties designed in regardless of Ethanol content.
The aircraft icing chart will be based on using Avgas which is 100 octane (possibly 110 octane?)

I remember trying some 5 star in my Honda 50 once.. It sapped the power and got hot.
My Dad kindly explained the meaning of octane ratings and I ran it on 2 star happily ever after.

I always try to put premium or super in my 900 injection and enjoy lots of smooth power and economy (68mpg at a 90mph cruise on a very long private runway).
If I'm forced to use regular I only notice it being slightly less good, but there is a difference.

I did suffer what I assumed to be Carb icing on my carburettor equipped 900 Monster, but the oil fed warmers were enough to fix it once they were turned on. A damp but mild Autumn day was enough to bring it on.... All to do with relative humidity. (see above)

[Luddite]

Right thats enough thinking for a hungover saturday morning:scratch::D

There's another problem caused by too much ethanol!

Here's a thought; the reason we're stuck with this ethanol is a European Parliament Directive 2009/28/EC, which requires each member state to be using 10% biofuel by 2020.

Hmm...member states...2020...

Brexit anyone? Aren't we supposed to be out of the EU by 2020?

I mentioned earlier that there is currently a legal requirement for fuel companies to provide 'protection grade' petrol. This requirement runs out on 31 December 2016 and I can't find any details anywhere of what's going to happen after that. I wonder if the delay is as a result of Brexit? If I do find anything out, I'll post it here.

[Dirty]

I think the important question here is..... does the ethanol soaked water burn when you put a match to it?

[DrD]

I think the important question here is..... does the ethanol soaked water burn when you put a match to it?

or make a good fire starter when combined with a defective lithium-ion battery?:devil:

[mutley]

very interesting read i own a streetfighter & a monster with plastic fuel tanks & always run them on super unleaded even drain the fuel tanks when not being used over winter months

[jerry]

another problem is that although Monster carbs have Viton rubber in some components which is supposed to be Ethanaol tolerant ,, my experience is that in Thailand which has 10% ethanol in a lot of fuel it destroys rubber components in carbs on hondas and ducatis so the owners have to search out pure benzine 95 which is not always available

[Kato]

The aircraft icing chart will be based on using Avgas which is 100 octane (possibly 110 octane?)

Not so it is for micro & light aircraft running pump fuel

[BigOz]

I think the important question here is..... does the ethanol soaked water burn when you put a match to it?

The flammability of a water ethanol solution depends on the amount of ethanol vapour the solution is evolving and that depends greatly on the percent alcohol and the temperature of the liquid.
At room temperature it would need to be at over 40% ethanol to water to ignite and continue to burn from a momentary ignition but when cooking for example, wine at just 12% will ignite and burn when added to a hot pan in in the presence of a source of ignition because the heat vaporises the alcohol out of the solution faster.

[Mr Gazza]

Not so it is for micro & light aircraft running pump fuel

Ah! Yes you're right, the little un's do run on pump petrol.

I remember many years ago when I was visiting a cousin. We watched a micro-light descend in silence out of sight behind his back hedge.
Thinking it had crashed we raced round to see what had happened, only to meet an Orange suited aviator carrying a ready can and a bottle of two-stroke.... He had run out of petrol.
Needless to say we found him enough petrol out of various car tanks to get a measured gallon. He added his oil, filled his Micro-light up and off he went, returning our waves as he climbed out... What fun. :biggrin:

[Aviatore]

Nice info Luddite, I'll have to test my local BP's fuel to see just how much ethanol is in there. Knowing that Esso is clean gives me a better option than the full tank drain winterization that I've been doing.

[Maggsy]

According to Esso's website, their "Synergy Supreme+ Unleaded 97" is free from ethanol unless you are in Devon, Cornwall, Teeside or Scotland.
Awaiting reply from BP.
Are all Ducati plastic tanks vulnerable or just those from a certain period? (2013 696 owner asking!)

[Luddite]

As I understand it, all plastic/nylon tanks can be affected. With E95 fuel, while the ethanol stays in suspension within the petrol, you're pretty safe. It's when the ethanol separates out that the problems occur. How long this takes will depend on how quickly the fuel absorbs moisture.

Metal tanks aren't immune either as the ethanol is acidic and contains its own oxygen, so corrosion can occur more readily.

Certainly over winter, it's safest to keep ethanol free fuel in your tank if you're not using a fuel stabiliser.

[Maggsy]

Thanks Luddite! :thumbsup:

[Dirty]

The flammability of a water ethanol solution depends on the amount of ethanol vapour the solution is evolving and that depends greatly on the percent alcohol and the temperature of the liquid.
At room temperature it would need to be at over 40% ethanol to water to ignite and continue to burn from a momentary ignition but when cooking for example, wine at just 12% will ignite and burn when added to a hot pan in in the presence of a source of ignition because the heat vaporises the alcohol out of the solution faster.

:thumbsup::heart:

[Maggsy]

Here's the reply I got from BP:-

Thank you for your email concerning the fuel sold by BP.

Bioethanol is present in nearly all regular unleaded petrol being sold by fuel suppliers in the UK today. Bioethanol is also becoming increasingly present in the UK’s super-unleaded (premium/higher octane) petrol too; this is because, in compliance with the UK government’s Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation, fuel suppliers have been required to increase the quantity of bio fuels in their transport fuels since 2008. As a consequence, the inclusion of bioethanol in our BP Ultimate Unleaded supply chain is an evolving situation and we are therefore unable to give you categorical assurances as to its absence or presence. However we can assure you that – as required by the The Motor Fuel (Composition and Content) (Amendment) Regulations 2013 – the content of bioethanol in our BP Ultimate Unleaded gasoline will never be more than 5% by volume until 1st January 2017 at the earliest.

All BP fuels, Regular and BP Ultimate, contain special ingredients which have cleaning and protection properties for the engine. BP Ultimate has been rigorously tested on a wide range of vehicles, covering hundreds of thousands of miles, in various conditions. Its advanced formula offers a wide range of benefits compared to ordinary fuels, including better fuel efficiency and enhanced performance, , all of which give long term benefit and value to the consumer and their vehicle.

BP does not supply 100% bioethanol as a retail fuel in the UK.

Thank you for taking the time to bring the matter to our attention and for allowing us the opportunity to respond to your concerns at this time.

[Luddite]

Thought I'd copy the following four posts from "Ethanol free fuel" into this thread for ease of reference:

[Luddite]

From: Ethanol free fuel

http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=54589

I found it.. I found the holy grail of fuel...

Esso premium unleaded contains no ethanol unless you're in Devon, Cornwall, Scotland or Newcastle.

BP ultimate contains no ethanol PERIOD according to head office.

Shell, texaco contain less than 5% according to head office

Total and Mobil 1 filling stations contain 0% in premium fuel according to head office.

Hope it helps.

[Luddite]

From: Ethanol free fuel

http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=54589

Interesting.
I knew about Esso Super but not Total and Mobil, thanks for that.
However, I recently had an email from BP in which they said the position was constantly evolving and therefore they could not confirm if ethanol was present or not in their Super. (I think eeveryone's Regular has up to 5% Ethanol).
Luckily there's plenty of Esso around here.

[Luddite]

From: Ethanol free fuel

http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=54589

Here's an interesting recent thread on the subject.

http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=54542&highlight=ethanol

[Luddite]

From: Ethanol free fuel

http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=54589

the reply 'maggsy' got from BP in the recent thread says ultimate will never have more than 5% ethanol until jan 2017 which of course isn't far away !! which to me sounds as if it does have ethanol in already.there is information on the net but a lot seems to be out of date & it would be nice to have a definitive answer to this ethanol question ..but it does seem safer to stick to the premium grades .

[Luddite]

I said in earlier posts (1 & 15) that the legal requirement for fuel companies to provide 'protection grade' petrol (i.e. petrol with no more than 5% ethanol content) expires on 31 December 2016.

Here is an extract from an email I received from the DfT:

"We aim to consult next year on a proposal to extend the requirement for larger forecourts to provide petrol with no more than 5% ethanol. We expect the proposal to be broadly similar to the current one.

We are in regular contact with suppliers who have been asked to give at least three months’ notice of any plans to introduce this fuel. As yet none have indicated they have any immediate plans to introduce E10."

So it looks like we'll be spared the introduction of E10 for the foreseeable future at least. We'll still need to hunt around for Ethanol-free fuel though.

the reply 'maggsy' got from BP in the recent thread says ultimate will never have more than 5% ethanol until jan 2017 which of course isn't far away !! which to me sounds as if it does have ethanol in already.

There's a BP garage near me, so I'll test some of their Ultimate fuel this week and post the results on here.

In the meantime, Esso premium seems to be the only fuel definitely ethanol-free, in this part of the country anyway.

[Luddite]

Here's a brief update. I got some BP Ultimate on Friday from a Southampton garage to check its ethanol content. I carried out the exact same test as at the start of this thread and was pleasantly surprised to find zero ethanol.

So, in Southampton at least, there are currently two sources of 'clean' fuel available.

Don't forget, it's a simple matter to check your own fuel; no special equipment is needed. If you're not trying to calculate the actual percentage of ethanol but just want to know if any ethanol is present, an old jam jar will suffice.

As I understand it, the addition of ethanol is not part of the refining process; it happens at distribution. The 'clean' fuel and ethanol are mixed in the tanker prior to delivery. Consequently, the situation at your local garage could change overnight, with the next delivery in fact.

I'll check again in a few months and let you know of any changes.

As for the legislation requiring suppliers to provide 'protection grade' fuel (post #34), this expired on 1 January 2017 and, so far, has not been replaced. Since the whole biofuel issue is as a result of an EU directive, perhaps this won't be reviewed until Brexit has been completed. Again, if I hear anything, I'll let you know.

[Luddite]

Thanks to Mossleymonster for posting this link on this thread: http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?p=559724#post559724

Joy of Joys... The Government are giving us more Ethanol.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/727547/e10-petrol-consumer-protection-fuel-pump-labelling.pdf

I've added it here to bring this thread up to date. This is the consultation that was promised earlier (see post #34 above). The previous legal requirement to provide "protection grade" fuel (Motor Fuel (Composition and Content) Regulations 1999) expired on 31 December 2016 so this is somewhat overdue.

I actually feel reasonably reassured by this for two reasons:

Firstly, the government has at least recognised that we exist:

"... a small proportion of older vehicles will need to continue to use E5. These include classic or cherished older vehicles; but also include a significant number of cars and motorbikes which are less than 25 years old..."

And, secondly, it looks like the legal requirement for suppliers to provide "protection grade" fuel of no more than 5% ethanol, will continue. As is the case now, while there is a statutory maximum ethanol content, there still appears to be no minimum figure for the "protection grade" fuel. This should mean that those of us in the right areas should still be able to use Esso ethanol-free fuel for as long as they see fit to supply it.

I would have urged everyone to write in and make our concerns known, but I see that the consultation period expired on 16 September, so we're too late!

[Darkness]

Thanks Gordon.

[Mossleymonster]

Thanks to Mossleymonster for posting this link on this thread: http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?p=559724#post559724



I've added it here to bring this thread up to date. This is the consultation that was promised earlier (see post #34 above). The previous legal requirement to provide "protection grade" fuel (Motor Fuel (Composition and Content) Regulations 1999) expired on 31 December 2016 so this is somewhat overdue.

I actually feel reasonably reassured by this for two reasons:

Firstly, the government has at least recognised that we exist:

"... a small proportion of older vehicles will need to continue to use E5. These include classic or cherished older vehicles; but also include a significant number of cars and motorbikes which are less than 25 years old..."

And, secondly, it looks like the legal requirement for suppliers to provide "protection grade" fuel of no more than 5% ethanol, will continue. As is the case now, while there is a statutory maximum ethanol content, there still appears to be no minimum figure for the "protection grade" fuel. This should mean that those of us in the right areas should still be able to use Esso ethanol-free fuel for as long as they see fit to supply it.

I would have urged everyone to write in and make our concerns known, but I see that the consultation period expired on 16 September, so we're too late!

The F***ers like to keep these things quiet. And the arrest and imprisonment of Englishmen for telling the truth.

[S4R Dude]

I agree that the government do like to keep anything quite where it relates to the environment.......or the ability to further tax us.

But the arrest and imprisonment of Englishmen for telling the truth. Ha ha, little bit paranoid here methinks.

I have an S4R and when I know it will sit for a bit I put Aspen in the tank so I do not have to worry.

[jonzi]

The F***ers like to keep these things quiet. And the arrest and imprisonment of Englishmen for telling the truth.

You are really boring, its all the same stuff that you spout. This is a forum about Monsters, this isn't the Daily Fails forum

**** off over there if you want to talk about this stuff

[Mossleymonster]

You are really boring, its all the same stuff that you spout. This is a forum about Monsters, this isn't the Daily Fails forum

**** off over there if you want to talk about this stuff

https://media1.tenor.com/images/c5dd72c7443a2d62ceb22c4e4c672f4c/tenor.gif?itemid=9536199

[mickj]

Just had an email from Esso.

Good afternoon,

Thank you for your email.

Please be informed that the Esso super unleaded petrol (Synergy Supreme+ Unleaded 97) is ethanol free and we have no current intention to add ethanol to Synergy Supreme+.



I think it's still the only ethanol free fuel in the UK unless you live in Cornwall, parts of Devon and Tynside.

[Darkness]

. Please be informed that the Esso super unleaded petrol (Synergy Supreme+ Unleaded 97) is ethanol free and we have no current intention to add ethanol to Synergy Supreme+.

Good to know that’s still the case around here.

Thanks. :D

[Dukedesmo]

Good to know that’s still the case around here.

Thanks. :D

Indeed, if true and if it remains to be the case then I'll try to use it where possible.

I always use super unleaded unless I've run out and only 'cooking' fuel is available and I've not had any ethanol related problems yet but as all my bikes are quite old and 2 are carburettor equipped, I'd rather not risk it.

At least they've all got steel tanks though... ;)

[Luddite]

At least they've all got steel tanks though... ;)

Having an 1100 Evo with a plastic tank, I've done quite a bit of reading into this subject. I don't want to sound like the voice of doom, DD, but it's not just us plastic tank owners who have to be careful; even steel tanks are not immune although they are at risk in a different way.

Obviously, they're not going to swell, but they can corrode. The corrosion mechanism works like this:

• Fuel is left in the tank for some time.
• The ethanol in the fuel absorbs water from the atmosphere.
• Once the ethanol is saturated and cannot absorb anymore water, it comes out of solution with the fuel and, being heavier, sinks to the bottom of the tank ("phase separation").
• Ethanol is a perfect food source for a particular microbe "acetobacter", which has been found in ethanol underground storage tanks.
• Once the bacteria have feasted on the ethanol, they produce acetic acid, which is corrosive to mild steel.
• The surface of the tank in contact with the ethanol will suffer from "aqueous corrosion" while any exposed area above the fuel will experience "gaseous corrosion". If you've ever opened your fuel cap after a winter hibernation and detected a faint whiff of vinegar, then that's acetic acid at work.

Perhaps potentially more damaging is the effect on any in-tank fuel pumps with their moving parts and critical clearances.

As I said earlier, I don't want to be a scare-longer - if you fill up every couple of weeks, then there won't be time for the ethanol to cause problems, (it's safe while it's in suspension with the petrol). But I think, if you're laying up your bike for any length of time, it's good practice to either drain the tank (and carbs if appropriate) or add an ethanol specific fuel stabilizer.

Roll on spring!

[BigOz]

I've repaired a few steel tanks that have rotted though and they have all had the most serious corrosion on the side stand side at the lowest point which I took to be from the presence of water either though ingress or from aqueous ethanol coming out of solution.

Quite often what looks like just a small pinhole or two turns out to be the tip of the iceberg with whole areas around the holes left tissue paper thin.

I don't know the history of one particular tank that was holed and thin but had no visible rust on the area inside the tank. It may have had the rust removed/treated before it came to me but from the description above I guess it could have been acidic corrosion.

[Dukedesmo]

Scary stuff about steel tanks...

Bugger... :(

[Mossleymonster]

Having an 1100 Evo with a plastic tank, I've done quite a bit of reading into this subject. I don't want to sound like the voice of doom, DD, but it's not just us plastic tank owners who have to be careful; even steel tanks are not immune although they are at risk in a different way.

Obviously, they're not going to swell, but they can corrode. The corrosion mechanism works like this:

• Fuel is left in the tank for some time.
• The ethanol in the fuel absorbs water from the atmosphere.
• Once the ethanol is saturated and cannot absorb anymore water, it comes out of solution with the fuel and, being heavier, sinks to the bottom of the tank ("phase separation").
• Ethanol is a perfect food source for a particular microbe "acetobacter", which has been found in ethanol underground storage tanks.
• Once the bacteria have feasted on the ethanol, they produce acetic acid, which is corrosive to mild steel.
• The surface of the tank in contact with the ethanol will suffer from "aqueous corrosion" while any exposed area above the fuel will experience "gaseous corrosion". If you've ever opened your fuel cap after a winter hibernation and detected a faint whiff of vinegar, then that's acetic acid at work.

Perhaps potentially more damaging is the effect on any in-tank fuel pumps with their moving parts and critical clearances.

As I said earlier, I don't want to be a scare-longer - if you fill up every couple of weeks, then there won't be time for the ethanol to cause problems, (it's safe while it's in suspension with the petrol). But I think, if you're laying up your bike for any length of time, it's good practice to either drain the tank (and carbs if appropriate) or add an ethanol specific fuel stabilizer.

Roll on spring!

At the riski of being boring again. I'd like to say in an interesting way ......... THIS.
Hope I didn't offend.

[Luddite]

The new edition of Bike (no. 558: 24 July-27 Aug) has an interesting article on the problems with modern fuel (i.e. ethanol).

Nothing really new to us but a handy reference and it has some tips on storage, which are always useful.

(Not on this subject but in the same issue, there's also an explanation of how DVT (Desmodromic Variable Timing) works, which appeals to my inner geek!)

[Luddite]

I've attached this reply from http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/s...496#post567496 to add the latest information to this thread.

Apparently from Begining of July all ESSO garages have had the pure benzine 97 removed and replaced with E5 Gasohol 97 ,, its been caused by UK government requirment that all fuels must have 5% ethanol minimum according to ESSO customer service ,,,
my Mates in sussex tell me this is the case and all ESSO 97 pumps now have E5 labels


very sad new indeed ,, for those of use with carbed bikes

https://i.postimg.cc/SKRK3cB0/Clive-Dunn-don-t-panic.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Always treat with caution any news that starts with the word 'apparently'!

So, apparently(!), the appearance of 'E5' labels on forecourt pumps has nothing to do with any changes to Esso's Synergy Supreme+, it is merely the application of new fuel labelling guidelines previously announced by the government back in February.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-launches-new-campaign-to-inform-drivers-about-greener-fuels

Under the new rules, two new labels must be shown on all pumps by September - 'E5' and 'B7'; 'E5' means petrol with an ethanol content not exceeding 5% (so including ethanol-free), and 'B7' is for diesel with no more than 7% FAME (Fatty acid methyl ester).

If and when 10% ethanol fuel is introduced, then a new label 'E10' will be introduced for 5%-10% ethanol content.

There is still no legislation requiring a minimum ethanol content in fuel; legislation only governs maximum ethanol content.

An email to Esso yesterday prompted the now familiar response i.e.

"Esso Synergy Supreme+ is ethanol free (except in Devon, Cornwall, the Teesside area and Scotland) and we have no current intention to add ethanol to Synergy Supreme+ in other areas of the UK."

So...as you were!

I imagine the next news will come later this year when the government announces its response to last year's consultation on 'whether and how best to introduce E10'.

[Darren69]

It was clear before brexit that the E5 fuel was a stop-gap before they brought in E10. If E5 causes problems for older vehicles then E10 will be twice as bad. But do they care when the motives are to remove older less environmentally friendly vehicles off the road. You wouldhave thought with brexit we would be free from the eurocrats behind this but apparently not.

[Luddite]

It was clear before brexit that the E5 fuel was a stop-gap before they brought in E10. If E5 causes problems for older vehicles then E10 will be twice as bad.

I'll put this in here for future reference in case we get really desperate. Mentioned in the Bike magazine article I referred to earlier, (post #49), it's a small independent fuel supplier who can provide 20 litre barrels of ethanol-free fuel delivered to your door, (at a price, of course!).

They are called Classic Fuel Solutions https://classicfuelsolutions.co.uk/

In the meantime, as I mentioned earlier at post #36, the consultation document suggests that there will still be a legal requirement for oil companies to provide so-called 'protection grade' fuel of not more than 5% ethanol until 31 December 2020 at the earliest with renewal to be considered at that time.

[Luddite]

I imagine the next news will come later this year when the government announces its response to last year's consultation on 'whether and how best to introduce E10'.

A quick (non-)update.

According to an answer given to a question raised in parliament on 30 September:

'The consultation included a call for evidence on whether, and how best, E10 could be introduced in the UK, and the Department is working hard to publish a response as soon as possible this year.'

https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-question/Commons/2019-09-30/292315

So it looks like it's still a case of 'watch this space'.

[bigredduke]

This may be a more cost-effective solution than having fuel delivered:

https://www.millersoils-shop.co.uk/eps-ethanol-protection-additive

[Nickj]

I'll put this in here for future reference in case we get really desperate. Mentioned in the Bike magazine article I referred to earlier, (post #49), it's a small independent fuel supplier who can provide 20 litre barrels of ethanol-free fuel delivered to your door, (at a price, of course!).

They are called Classic Fuel Solutions https://classicfuelsolutions.co.uk/

In the meantime, as I mentioned earlier at post #36, the consultation document suggests that there will still be a legal requirement for oil companies to provide so-called 'protection grade' fuel of not more than 5% ethanol until 31 December 2020 at the earliest with renewal to be considered at that time.

But only if you don't have lambda sensors

[Luddite]

Further to post #53 above, a consultation has been opened today on the introduction of E10 fuel into the UK. It runs until 19 April.

https://i.postimg.cc/5Nddv5Td/wp-ss-20200304-0008-2.png (https://postimg.cc/pyZ6MjPq)

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/introducing-e10-petrol

A quick skim through the proposals suggests that the main points are:

• E10 would be introduced in 2021.
• E10 would become the standard 'premium' fuel containing at least 5.5% ethanol.
• Protection grade fuel (i.e. containing less than 5% ethanol) will continue to be made available as 97+ octane 'super' until at least 2026, after which extension of its availability would be reviewed.

I think most of us have an opinion about ethanol in fuel but, if you feel strongly about this latest move, rather than just moan about it on the forum, make your feelings known to those who will be drawing up the future legislation. Complete one of these response forms.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/consultation_response_form_data/file/772/e10-response-form.odt

And email it to: LowCarbonFuel.Consultation@dft.gov.uk

I think we need to ensure that the protection grade fuel is available beyond 2026 until at least such time as the ban on new internal combustion engine vehicles is introduced.

[bigredduke]

There was an article on this in today's Times. Thanks for posting.

[boris]

Also heard this (unfortunately) on the R4 Today program this morning..

[Luddite]

I, (and jerry!), have sent in our response forms and I would urge anyone else with an opinion to do likewise.

The form is mostly in the form of yes or no questions but the final question on the last page is an 'additional comments' blank space on which you can make your feelings known.

It's not for me to tell anyone else what to write but, for the record, I mentioned the following:

• Ethanol causes damage to plastic tanks and carburettor/fuel system components in older vehicles so, consequently...
• Protection grade fuel (i.e. less than 5% ethanol) should continue to be available as long as possible after the introduction of E10 and at least until 2026.
• There is currently no statutory minimum ethanol content, (which is why we can still get Esso ethanol-free), and this should continue after the introduction of E10.
• Assuming that there will be no statutory minimum ethanol content, there should be a new 'E0' label for ethanol-free fuel so that consumers can easily identify it.

[Uncle Bob]

I may be misunderstanding, but surely the supposed 'clean' benefits alone of super unleaded petrol should ensure that it's still available for as long as combustion engines exist? Assuming of course that anyone can afford to buy it.

[Luddite]

I may be misunderstanding, but surely the supposed 'clean' benefits alone of super unleaded petrol should ensure that it's still available for as long as combustion engines exist? Assuming of course that anyone can afford to buy it.

It's all part of the government's efforts to reduce the UK's net carbon emissions to zero by 2050, Bob.

Ethanol is being blended with petrol as it is renewable and supposedly reduces a vehicle's CO² emissions by 2% over running on E5.

[Darren69]

It shouldn't be a major problem should it, providing that you can continue to buy premium grade with <=5.0% ethanol and just use that instead? OK it will be a bit more expensive but I always buy that if I can anyway.

But if for whatever reason you couldn't get premium and you needed fuel you wouldn't really want to buy E10.

[Graham04]

My local Esso garage has just had an upgrade and the supreme petrol pump now shows E5. It was inevitable that they would catch up eventually

[Luddite]

Don't worry, Graham. It's just a labelling thing - if it was ethanol-free before than it will still be ethanol-free.

See post #50 earlier in the thread: http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showpost.php?p=567497&postcount=50

If you're worried about the ethanol content then just test a sample as explained at the start of this thread.

[The Clockie]

My local Esso garage has just had an upgrade and the supreme petrol pump now shows E5. It was inevitable that they would catch up eventually

Yes, I noticed that and began to lose faith. However, reassured by the discussions, stocks of ethanol-free Esso petrol are now in the garage awaiting the riding season (the better grades of fuel have a longer shelf-life too).

I mean; I appreciate ethanol in the right place i.e. my G&T, but not in fuel!

Nick

[Luddite]

Update:

From: http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?p=580403

No more 0% ethanol pure Benzine fuel in Uk since early this year even Esso and BP 97 /98/99 octane is now 5% ethanol

Not true. For confirmation, I've just tested 100cc of Esso Synergy Supreme+ bought from Chickenhall Service Station in Eastleigh last Wednesday and, as in all previous tests, it remains completely ethanol free.

There is currently no E10 fuel available in the UK as it is not due to be introduced until 2021. According to the Petrol Retailers Association (PRA), there will be a nationwide publicity campaign six months before the launch of E10, so keep an eye out for that and pay attention to the pump labels once E10 becomes available.

Again, according to the PRA, 'protection grade' E5 will continue to be made available for at least five years after the introduction of E10. My hope is that, while E5 remains on the menu, Esso will continue to offer it as ethanol-free.

[Luddite]

From Fortnine, a timely, interesting and, as ever, entertaining look at fuel stabilisers.

Don't have nightmares! :eek:

chsGBhB5g7o

[Darkness]

The Esso website still says:

‘The majority of unleaded 95 Octane petrol sold in the UK contains up to 5% ethanol as required under the Government’s Renewable Transport Fuels Obligation (RTFO).

There is currently no requirement for renewable fuel (such as ethanol) to be present in super unleaded (97 and 99 grade petrol).

Esso super unleaded petrol (Synergy Supreme+ Unleaded 97 and Synergy Supreme+ 99 ) is ethanol free (except in Devon, Cornwall, the Teesside area and Scotland). We would therefore advise anyone who has concerns about the presence of ethanol in petrol to use Synergy Supreme+ – providing they do not fill up in Devon or Cornwall, the Teesside area or Scotland. The European standard BS EN228 covers the requirements for 0-5% ethanol unleaded petrol, the labelling requirement for zero % ethanol is E5 (as is up to 5%), a E0 label doesn’t exist. We understand that this is confusing if you are looking for zero % ethanol fuel, but as advised we can confirm that our Supreme Unleaded fuel supplied in areas except those listed (Devon, Cornwall, Teeside & Scotland) is ethanol free.’

https://www.esso.co.uk/en-gb/fuels-faqs

As they say, there is no E0 classification, so ethanol free is labelled as having less than 5%.

[TimM900]

Who else has tried testing their petrol? Out of curiosity I got a measuring cylinder a couple of weeks ago and have tried a few, just for standard unleaded. Interestingly, none are as high as 5% yet, so far both Jet and BP have been 3-4% while Tesco measured 1-2%.

[Luddite]

Who else has tried testing their petrol? Out of curiosity I got a measuring cylinder a couple of weeks ago and have tried a few, just for standard unleaded. Interestingly, none are as high as 5% yet, so far both Jet and BP have been 3-4% while Tesco measured 1-2%.

For piece of mind, I regularly check a sample of Esso's Synergy Supreme+ and, so far, It's always been completely ethanol-free. As a control, to ensure my testing method worked, I've also checked Esso's regular unleaded, which contained about 4.5% ethanol. I know which one will be in my tank over winter!

[Luddite]

From http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=59386

Don’t want to hijack an interesting thread, but topping up my 1959 Matchless G80 yesterday at my local Esso station I noticed the pumps had been re badged, normal Esso 95 ron. now contains 10% ethanol, Esso supreme, 5%....I honestly didnt perceive any difference in performance....although with an old British thumper it’s difficult to use the word “performance “ in any meaningful discussion.:D:D:D
Has anyone enquired whether it actually contains 10% ethanol, or less than 10%?

I thought e10 was being rolled out in September, so they may be getting the pumps ready for it.

It's actually been legal to supply fuel with a maximum 10% ethanol content since 2011 but, until now, none of the oil companies has offered this as an option.

The latest draft legislation will place a statutory requirement on the oil companies to provide E10, (with a minimum ethanol content of 5.5%), from 1 September. E10 will then become the 'standard grade' with E5 being the alternative 'protection grade'.

I checked what the present position was with the major suppliers and this is how they replied via email...

Esso said:

"The transition to E10 unleaded petrol will gradually take place during August. Some Service Stations might adapt sooner, so please look for the E10 sticker on fuel pumps and for exact dates please ask your local Service Station.

BP:

"E10 is a grade of petrol that may contain up to 10% bioethanol. It is already sold in parts of Europe as well as the USA and Australia but not in the UK yet. Most vehicles produced since 2000 are able to run on E10 petrol. Vehicles that can run on E10 can also run on E5 petrol and, for new vehicles, will typically have both labels by the fuel filler cap.

E10 could be available in the UK in the future as a way of helping to reduce the carbon emissions from petrol vehicles and meet climate change targets."

Texaco:

"You are correct in saying that the E10 grade will be available in our service stations on the 1st September."

Shell didn't have a contact email so a quick call to their customer service revealed that they are not supplying any E10 at the moment and aren't announcing any specific roll-out date but are in consultation with the DoT.

My guess, from that, is that they're just waiting to see if the draft legislation goes through without amendment. Assuming it does, then they'll have to provide E10 from 1 September whether they like it or not.

Don't forget that Esso Synergy Supreme+ will continue to be ethanol-free as now in those areas that currently have it.

[TimM900]

I wonder where they are going to get all the bioethanol from? I haven't noticed a sudden change of farm crop production anywhere

[Luddite]

(Thought I'd update the thread with this information from Nasher's swollen tank saga.)

You'll be pleased to know that I checked 100ml of Esso Synergy Supreme+ purchased earlier tonight at the local service station and found absolutely zero ethanol in the sample.

So, at present, it seems that Esso are the only supplier you can consistently rely on to offer ethanol-free fuel, (apologies if you live in one of the Esso 'dead spots'!).

I would certainly recommend using Synergy Supreme+ to everyone, not just to those of us with plastic tanks. It may be more expensive per litre but, in addition to the 'health benefits', there has been some evidence in recent magazine articles suggesting that, because it contains more energy per cc than an ethanol blend, you actually need less fuel for any given distance, making it cheaper per mile than E10.

[jerry]

My experience in Thailand on the S4 is that when Pure benzine 95 not available and i have to use the 10% gasohol 95 i lose 10% power and 5% mileage its very noticable and that does not include all the other risks of gasohol , luckily the S4 has steel tank but when I dont use the bike for a few months I either empty tank or fill it with pure unadulterated lovely pure 95 benzine

[900Rebuilder]

(Thought I'd update the thread with this information from Nasher's swollen tank saga.)

You'll be pleased to know that I checked 100ml of Esso Synergy Supreme+ purchased earlier tonight at the local service station and found absolutely zero ethanol in the sample.

So, at present, it seems that Esso are the only supplier you can consistently rely on to offer ethanol-free fuel, (apologies if you live in one of the Esso 'dead spots'!).

I would certainly recommend using Synergy Supreme+ to everyone, not just to those of us with plastic tanks. It may be more expensive per litre but, in addition to the 'health benefits', there has been some evidence in recent magazine articles suggesting that, because it contains more energy per cc than an ethanol blend, you actually need less fuel for any given distance, making it cheaper per mile than E10.

I'm starting to think that it might be the ethanol content that's the cause of all the rust in the tank (steel) in my Jeep. The rust has all been located below the waterline of where the old petrol was left in the tank and I can only assume / guess that its the ethanol content thats made it far worse than it would otherwise have been.

[Luddite]

An interesting vid and it shows how to perform the test that I set out at the beginning of this thread.

0ge2PZIX1oM

[walkingpictures]

I'm definitely going to run my bike on the Esso Synergy this year after a good friend of mine lifted the tank to change the belts and found that it had expanded again.Apparently it was a b*stard job to modify things under the seat to get the tank locked down again.Hopefully the fuel will still be ethanol free.

Kimbo

[Luddite]

I'm definitely going to run my bike on the Esso Synergy this year... Hopefully the fuel will still be ethanol free.

Kimbo

A quick sample test as above will soon put your fears to rest. I tend to check every 3 - 4 months or so for peace of mind.