S4R Leaky fuel tank :(

[hairyaxeman]

Hi Guys!

I'm after some advice.

When I got my bike there was a smell of petrol coming from it (but no visible leak) however when I took it into the garage for a check up they told me that the tank had been sealed with this amber coloured gunk stuff of which there are loose bits all in the tank (pictured)
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h20/dan_b11/image1%2022%20Copy.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h20/dan_b11/image2%2015%20Copy.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h20/dan_b11/image3%209%20Copy.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h20/dan_b11/image1%2023%20Copy.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h20/dan_b11/image2%2016%20Copy.jpg


They cleaned most of the bits out and sealed up the leaky area with this metal bluetac looking stuff (also pictured) but here's the problem. I took it up the road the other day for the first time in a while since I don't ride it that much and literally as I got to the end of my road I noticed that petrol was dribbling out either side of the tank where the hinge is and onto the frame and my legs.

I took it all apart and its looking like I need a new tank. I think I found where the leak it coming from, there is a hole kind of in the center of the blue tac square repair you can see it in a few of the pictures.

But anyway what would your best advice be? Get a new tank? If so where is the best place to get hold of one as the S4r has the filter and bits on the inside.

Or could I repair the hole and use the tank I have? I don't really like the thought of this as the fuel is likely to have bits of the amber rubbish floating around in it. Or maybe there is someone who repairs tanks properly that someone could put me in touch with?

Any help would be much appreciated. I am in norwich by the way.

Thanks!

[utopia]

The leak at the hinge is quite common and is probably caused by raising the tank when its fairly full of fuel.
The std repair is to braze all round the hinge bracket.
BUT ... your tank looks well rusty inside.
I'd be inclined to look for a better one.

ps.. the "repair" with the blu-tac stuff looks well dodgy and, because the area is under some stress (hence the leak in the first place) it is almost bound to fail fairly quickly.
I would consider it to be a dangerous bodge tbh.

[Mr Gazza]

Well they made a f###ing mess of that didn't they?...I hope you didn't pay them.!

As Utopia said, the only way to mend the classic hinge leak is to braze all the way round the plate that is optimisticly spot welded on.
I had mine done at Mustard City racing for £40. (Northumberland Street, near Tinklers)They did an excellent job, but sadly they are no more...The owner bought a pub instead..:grump:

The tank is metal and so I think it is worth saving, even if this is going to take a little work. The good news is that the repair will not damage any visible paint work.

You need to remove the fuel pump and filter from inside the tank.
Remove all the horrid filler from around the hinge, to reveal the hinge mounting plate.
thoroughly clean out the joint between plate and tank to bright metal...It's a bit tight at the rear edge so you might have to grind a little metal away to get in there properly.

Next bit is tricky, as you need to find someone willing to braze up the petrol tank...but I will put some feelers out...Mustard City were happy to do it after filling with water and emptying it once..It didn't explode or anything..:biggrin:
They tested it with clutch and brake cleaner, which is very searching, more so than petrol. It might even get rid of any water traces too.

Then you could put a handfull of washed gravel in the tank with a little petrol and give it a good shake and swill around (maybe even count the stones that go in, so you can count them out again?)
That will get rid of most of the rust and loose sealer.
Install with new filter.

[hairyaxeman]

Cheers for replies guys top advice as always.

The tank is not rusty inside thats just all of the sealer mastic type stuff from the previous bodge attempt.

Gazza, do you mean I need to take all the blue tac stuff off or anything else? Sorry I'm not very mechanically minded.

I called around and found a guy who specializes in fixing tanks but hes got a 2 month waiting list :( But I do know a welder who is very into motorbikes up on the airport industrial estate so i might see if he can help me.

By the way it was Carl Harrison who did the bodge, i think they did just do it as a temporary fix because i was having some other stuff done at the time and they did warn me that the tank was knackerd!

[Mr Gazza]

I'm really suprised at Carl Harrison doing such a thing...he should know better.

I thought the stuff was aluminium Isopon at first but it also looks a bit like some epoxy putty that I've come across in boat building. Why he would have any of that lying around is beyond me though.

It will all have to come off for brazing, as the heat will burn it anyway and choke the welder and everybody else in the workshop with toxic smoke...The stuff inside the tank will burn aswell, but not a lot you can do about that...A damp rag over the filler perhaps?

As I have little idea what the stuff is or whether it's hard or rubbery, I couldn't suggest a removal method, but I reckon it's going to be chiselling grinding and hand sanding, maybe a rotary wire brush in the final stages?...It might be that the oyy-acetylene will finish off removing any that remains in the chinks between the plate and the tank..Which is where the braze has to flow into.

There's a central hole stamped out of the bracket, which in your case is full of filler. I'm not sure that it has to be brazed round there as the bracket is spot welded to a flat plate...I can't check mine at the mo. As I'm brimming with petrol...But as much filler as possible still needs to be removed because of the burning.

Sorry mate, it's going to be an 'orrible job, but better than new once it's done.

[hairyaxeman]

Ah thats not good news.

Well thanks Gaz I better get to work. I'll let you know how I get on.

Thanks again guys

[hairyaxeman]

Hi Guys, I haven't been on here in a while but I thought I would give you an update anyway.

I ended up stripping down the tank and having it welded and then tried to clean out the inside with some gravel and water however when I washed out the gravel loads of crap and rust came out with it.

The tank is now in a poor state and I'm worried about the amount of rust inside it and also inside the metal fuel lines.

I'm close to giving up now as I cannot find any replacement tanks and I don't want to put the one I have back on as i'm worried that any rust that might be in the metal fuel pipes could make its way into the engine.

Any advice?

Thanks Dan

[Luddite]

You could try electrolytic rust removal using a piece of steel (not stainless), a battery charger and some washing soda.

The effect is almost like magic, the first time I used it I was amazed at how the piece of steel ends up coated in rust while the previously rusty item is completely clean and shiny.

I've not tried this method on a tank but I know that it works. Here are a couple of links showing how to go about it.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Electrolytic-Rust-Removal-From-A-Motorcycle-Gas-Ta/

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SyG0mu2T4u0

[Tim88]

Just saw the pictures of the orange toffee stuff inside your tank. I tried once to seal up my Lambretta tank about ten tears ago with the two pack epoxy tank 'sealer' available at the time. You had to slosh the stuff around while it got very hot in the tank. Did it work? No, but it dried into that lunar landscape effect and was then impossible to remove even though it only stuck to the steel in patches. I had followed the pre cleaning and de rusting instructions as best I could but was very unimpressed by the result. Sorry this does not move the debate on much but I do not have much faith in 'sealers'.

[Chriswilly]

Frost (RestorersEquipment) stock products under the name of POR15.
I used the petrol tank repair on an old Guzzi which had a very rusty seam and a hole of about 5mm.
It did the job well except fotr the fact that it initially leaked from the tank on to my rubber workmat and welded itself to it and the work bench!
It is still on the Guzzi after six years, apparntly.

Obviousl you will have to clean the inside of the tank anyway - I used the 'Marine Clean' from Frost which in itself is amazing stuff - removes any greasey susbtances that brake cleaner, MEK and others leave behind. Best results - throw two handfulls of (non rusty) nuts.
bolts,washers into the tank with marine clean (or other solution) and shake it to death for ten minutes - this will not only remove the flaking material in the tank but will keep you really fit!!

PS Keep away from your shoes ot will weld those up as well.

[hairyaxeman]

Thanks for replies guys. The main concern is that because the fuel filter and pump is inside the tank, once the fuel has run through the filter it then runs through one of the metal pipes inside the tank which then comes out and goes into the injector (I think!) these pipes are rusty inside so the fuel although it was been through the filter is still coming out of the tank with rust particles in it???

[Luddite]

Thanks for replies guys. The main concern is that because the fuel filter and pump is inside the tank, once the fuel has run through the filter it then runs through one of the metal pipes inside the tank which then comes out and goes into the injector (I think!) these pipes are rusty inside so the fuel although it was been through the filter is still coming out of the tank with rust particles in it???

If you use the electrolytic method, it will remove the rust from within the pipes as well as from the tank.

[Mr Gazza]

Luddite's electrolytic method sounds like the business and I would definitely give it a shot.

If you feel the need to make a pull-through for the pipe then I've got a speedo cable inner you can have, which would be ideal.
You could even fray the end a bit to make a little wire brush and put an electric drill on the end.

[Scotty]

dissolve the rust in phosphoric acid

[hairyaxeman]

Yes please Gazza I'll give that a shot.

Why do ducati have to make these tanks so fiddly and complicated arghh

[utopia]

If you put any old nuts, gravel or whatever in there to knock the rust off, count them when they go in and make sure that they all come back out again.
They can easily get wedged in the seams etc and you can't hear them rattling so don't know that they're there.

Luddite's electrolytic method sounds interesting.
What a mine of useful and practical info you are. :thumbsup:
Filed for future ref.

[jerry]

I have a tank on my 750ss that was very rusty cleaned it up with stones and nuts and bolts and applied POR15 about 6 years ago but recently the POR 15 comes off in big flakes ,, so may have to apply again ??????

[Dirty]

If you put any old nuts, gravel or whatever in there to knock the rust off,

Been there, tried that, didn't work :banghead:

https://www.alisonspantry.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Mixed-Nuts-Deluxe.jpg

[Luddite]

Luddite's electrolytic method sounds interesting.
What a mine of useful and practical info you are.

Thanks, Utopia. I can't take the credit though as it was a trick my old dad passed down to me. He was an electrical engineer and Ariel Square Four owner and was full of useful hints and tips.