S4rs Starting Issues

[serialrisk]

Back again.... God I love this bike but she is fickle....


ok starting issues.. My bike is a terrible starter. Hit the ignition button (press and release) and the starter starts cranking the engine but just not getting ignition. the engine turns for 5 or 6 times then stops cranking. press the ignition button again and same happens. Usually takes 3 or 4 attempts to get her started. Sometimes the bike pinks during startup usually after giving a bit of throttle. This is from cold and normally starts no problem when warm but not today.

What I have done so far. Replaced the spark plugs with iridium plugs, ran a fuel system cleaner BG85 and as much as possible used super unleaded preferably Shell nitro.

Bike has an quad d exbox system and power commander.

I'm thinking fuel filter may need replaced but any further suggestions greatly appreciated.

cherrs guys
Jim

[Flip]

Is it cranking at a good speed or on the slow wheezy side when it turns over?

If the latter then it may well be down to poor ground connections assuming the battery is in good condition.

Also, not that it should make a difference to it starting but I am pretty sure Shell Nitro (and their V-Power) contains ethanol which does all kind of horrible things to your fuel system (and plastic fuel tank if you have one).

There's an odd tolerance allowed in the actual stated percentage of ethanol allowed in fuel at the pumps in the U.K. (in most of Europe E10 (10%) is common place) but the only one I know for sure here that doesn't have any is BP's super unleaded which is what most of the classic racers use (particularly those running two strokes as the ethanol also effects mixture).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/classiccars/9108430/The-ethanol-threat-to-classic-cars-and-bikes.html

[rollo22]

Try getting the TPS reset.
Was it fine before the power commander and Quad box.
May be a long shot but check all the earth connections are electrically sound

[Luddite]

Hi Jim

I note you've changed your plugs to the iridium type and that's what I'm running on my 1100 Evo.

I don't know if you're aware that, because of the narrower centre electrode, you need to use a larger gap than the standard (on the 1100 Evo) of 0.7 - 0.8 mm.

For a good fat spark, 0.9 - 1.0 mm is recommended (I'm using 0.95 mm).

If you haven't already done so, try a larger gap and see if that improves your starting.

These iridium plugs aren't as robust as standard copper-cored ones though so, if you do adjust them, use a proper adjusting tool on the outer electrode only. If you try to prise the electrodes apart, the centre one could break.

[damien666]

I had to change the tps on mine. It was impossible to start. I can reccomend the ' exact fit 'brand for new tps. The old one is held in by a metal ring clip with gripping teeth. It can't be removed and refitted as the gripping ring gets destroyed. Then a tps calibration needs to be done with approprite software/tool.

[alan s4]

Had same issues with mine - I replaced the following:

1. New Motobatt battery
2. Replace starter cable (from solenoid to starter) and earth (from battery to engine). I wouldn't bother with the "exact fit" kit - go to Halfords and buy upgraded cables (beside the battery section) - various sizes and colours available.
3. If you haven't changed your reg/rect then now would be the time - you need a MOFSET type. I bought mine from Electrex and it was a simple swap without faffing about with different cable solutions.

The battery needs to be in tip top condition and fully charged - I leave mine on a solar charger.

My bike now starts on the button, regardless of temp/length of time standing. No more "will she won't she" when you start up in front of a crowd:biggrin:

[BLUNT]

.......the only one I know for sure here that doesn't have any is BP's super unleaded which is what most of the classic racers use (particularly those running two strokes as the ethanol also effects mixture).

How recent is that info and have you contacted BP?

Here is some info from HERE (http://www.mmoc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?t=58766) that was posted Feb 2015:
Latest information as at 6/2/2015 re ethanol in unleaded grades available at the pumps today
from these 4 following companies contacted.

BP - 5% is contained in our regular unleaded petrol (similar to the majority on sale today)
Ref BP Ultimate - " This is an evolving situation (in line with government guidelines) and we are unable to give you catagorical assurances of the absence or presence of ethanol throughout the supply chain of our BP Ultimate petrol"

TEXACO (Verado) - BOTH our regular and super grades of unleaded petrol contain 5% ethanol at present.

SHELL UK - BOTH our regular and super grades of unleaded petrol contain 5% ethanol at present.

ESSO - 5% ethanol is added to our regular grade unleaded petrol
( NO ethanol* is added to our 'super' grade at present.
(*government legislation does not at present require us to add ethanol to this higher grade of petrol)
There is a further comment:
Esso confirmed again that Cornwall,Devon,Teeside area and Scotland are the exception and their super grade DOES contain 5% ethanol in these areas of the UK only at present time) other areas remain free of ethanol in their super grade (at present)

Unless your info is more recent then it reads as if BP Ultimate most likely does have ethanol and only Esso did not at the time the post was made but notice the words 'at present'?

[utopia]

That's useful ... ta.
I've been using BP Ultimate for some time now but it looks like it might be time to look for a local Esso garage instead.
And btw, it looks to me like both the info and the thread posting were from 2015, not 2016, so the situation may have moved on somewhat by now.

[BLUNT]

And btw, it looks to me like both the info and the thread posting were from 2015, not 2016, so the situation may have moved on somewhat by now.

Yes sorry - I misread that so now corrected to 2015 but you're right, this info can get out of date and is Esso Super still ethanol free?

[smiffyraf1]

i put iridiums in mine and it actually makes them harder to start due to being harder wearing and taking more energy to spark.
i recently changed the shim in my crank position sensor which seemed to help

[damien666]

Had same issues with mine - I replaced the following:

1. New Motobatt battery
2. Replace starter cable (from solenoid to starter) and earth (from battery to engine). I wouldn't bother with the "exact fit" kit - go to Halfords and buy upgraded cables (beside the battery section) - various sizes and colours available.
3. If you haven't changed your reg/rect then now would be the time - you need a MOFSET type. I bought mine from Electrex and it was a simple swap without faffing about with different cable solutions.

The battery needs to be in tip top condition and fully charged - I leave mine on a solar charger.

My bike now starts on the button, regardless of temp/length of time standing. No more "will she won't she" when you start up in front of a crowd:biggrin:
I've also fitted a mosfet type reg/rectifier. One thing to note on the s4rs is the plastic breather canister under the seat had to be re-shaped due to the way the connectors fit and take up space on new reg/rect unit.

[Luddite]

i put iridiums in mine and it actually makes them harder to start due to being harder wearing and taking more energy to spark.
i recently changed the shim in my crank position sensor which seemed to help

As far as iridium plugs are concerned, here's an explanation of some of their properties from

http://www.sparkplugs.co.uk/iridium-spark-plugs/

"... The narrow diameter concentrates the electrical charge and therefore a much lower voltage is required to jump the spark gap. This is beneficial in several ways:


A lower voltage is required, this reduces load on a vehicle's ignition system (less strain = less chance of failure)


A larger gap can be supported without increasing load on the ignition system (Larger gap = larger spark = more efficient combustion)..."


So, if you haven't already done so, I'd recommended trying the larger gap and seeing if that makes a difference. It's a 5 minute job and costs nothing. Bear in mind what I said above about using the right tool.

[serialrisk]

Thanks guys. some interesting suggestions here. I never considered tps settings so may go down that road in the winter. For now I think I'll settle with a new battery, earth's and widen the gaps on the plugs.

Also the fuel issues, as I do have a plastic tank this makes me very nervous!

I posted a video on youtube of her starting this morning. Today she has been behaving much better. makes it all the more frustrating.....Anyway link below if anyone has the time to listen for a couple of mins. Left it running to hear the engine throbbing until it got to temp

https://youtu.be/8BS60Vi9WyY

Also batteries. what is recommended?

cheers

[alan s4]

Watched the vid - sounds like a weak battery to me. How many volts are showing? Motobatt tends to be the preferred option on here. If your not hooking up to a charger then that could be the issue. Esp if you leave for a couple of weeks at a time.

If you are regularly riding then I would point the finger at the reg/rect. After a run the battery should be showing 13.5V or thereabouts (engine off), if you rev the engine to 3-4000 rpm you should see around 14V

Also, what's the score with the starter button? You press and then let go and it continues to turn??!! Is that an RS thing, as my monster (and any other bike that I've owned) doesn't do that.

[serialrisk]

That was after the battery was on charge overnight using an optimal and showing green lights.

OK amateurish question but where/ how do you check the voltage??

As for the push and let go. it's always done that, so assumed that's normal. Anybody know any different?

[damien666]

That was after the battery was on charge overnight using an optimal and showing green lights.

OK amateurish question but where/ how do you check the voltage??

As for the push and let go. it's always done that, so assumed that's normal. Anybody know any different?

Yes it's standard feature. If it fails to start, leave for 10 seconds or so before trying again. It's good practice or you will see starter wiring start to smoke!
If you do uprate the reg/rect to mosfet type, i can also recomend the 'shorai' lithium iron battery. Used one for 3 years or so without issues. It's featherlight aswell.
Just had to do the starter sprag this year due to poor starting in past wearing it out. ( previous tps, reg/rect and battery issues. Reg/rect over charged and blew motobatt battery)

[rollo22]

Try looking at reg/rect plug for signs of corrosion/heat damage.

[alan s4]

OP - to test the voltage you need to have a multimeter - they are really cheap to buy (go to Maplins).

You can then connect into your external battery charging cable (I presume you have one fitted?). You can then check the voltage with the engine off and with it running.

If you're struggling let me know and I'll stick a YouTube video on for you to follow.......

[Flip]

As for the push and let go. it's always done that, so assumed that's normal. Anybody know any different?

Nope definitely not normal- the solenoid (Starter Relay) is still getting power somehow after you release the starter button (starter button contacts sticking maybe?) by the sounds of it or the contacts in the solenoid are getting stuck together.

You definitely need a multimeter to check things out properly- a worthwhile addition to any tool box!

This one will do you- it's 9v (far better than most cheapy 3v ones) so the battery will last for ages!!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sealey-MM20-Digital-Multimeter-8-Function-with-Thermocouple-Brand-New-/321362994449?hash=item4ad2ba2511:g:95gAAOSwNSxUy1e s

[Flip]

How recent is that info and have you contacted BP?

Here is some info from HERE (http://www.mmoc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?t=58766) that was posted Feb 2015:

There is a further comment:

Unless your info is more recent then it reads as if BP Ultimate most likely does have ethanol and only Esso did not at the time the post was made but notice the words 'at present'?

Nice one, no I haven't contacted BP. I was just going on what most people use around the classic paddock and from the information I had found online (which may be as bad as using Dr Google for any ailments).

I know that Shell V-Power was eating though the intake rubber (Amal) of my little Ducati racer in a little over a season and that Amal have changed to using Viton tipped needle valves over the previously used rubber to combat the effects of Ethanol.

B.P. seemed better when I swapped to using their Super Unleaded but I haven't raced this year so I can't say if that is still the case.

Looks like I might have to start putting a Tiger in the tank from now on!!

[Luddite]

Nope definitely not normal

Don't panic, Serialrisk, your starter IS normal. I had this feature on my S2R and it's called Ducati servo assist starting. Here's an extract from the S4R owner's manual...

http://i873.photobucket.com/albums/ab292/vincebessant/Mobile%20Uploads/wp_ss_20160725_0001_zpsjqhvjm3l.png (http://s873.photobucket.com/user/vincebessant/media/Mobile%20Uploads/wp_ss_20160725_0001_zpsjqhvjm3l.png.html)

This feature appeared on various models up to about 2008 and I rather liked it. I believe that it was withdrawn after certain individuals (possibly litigious Americans) cranked their bikes into the hedge because they didn't use the feature properly. (But don't quote me on that!)

[Flip]

Don't panic, Serialrisk, your starter IS normal. I had this feature on my S2R and it's called Ducati servo assist starting.

This feature appeared on various models up to about 2008 and I rather liked it. I believe that it was withdrawn after certain individuals (possibly litigious Americans) cranked their bikes into the hedge because they didn't use the feature properly. (But don't quote me on that!)

Excellent- that is why this forum is so good.

I had never heard of it and I now stand corrected.

[serialrisk]

Thanks for that. I should probably read the manual more :-)

[jezzamondo]

Was wondering how you were getting on serialrisk? I removed iridium plugs from my s4rs (kept dropping cylinders) and have just fried a motobatt battery, so contemplating lithium with mosfet regulator. The Motobatt battery I had was a really tight fit and I'm not confident it has any better CCA than Yuasa - both batteries only just turning cold engine over from new. Lithium would appear to be the business...?

[damien666]

Shorai lithium iron battery, mosfet rect/regulator and uprated cables for the win. Been running this setup for 3 years. No probs.

[serialrisk]

Jezzamondo.


I have replaced the battery to a motobatt, widen the gap on the plugs and replaced the rectifier. It did help. At least it has stopped cutting out for no particular reason!

It took 3 pushes of the starter (and one hell of a back fire) after 3-4 months sitting for the winter but ran well for a short blast and started first time after a couple of hours stop.

Will see how it goes this season.

[damien666]

Nice one, up and running again :-)

I've got to do valve clearances on mine. Bit nervous of doing it if i'm honest, but need them doing.

[serialrisk]

Getting the valves done when im back. I doubt they have ever been done with 26k on the clock so might be interesting.

Damien, You had to put uprated cables? Where did you get them from?

Ill play it by ear for this year and keep in mind the Shorai for next season. Big lump of cash for a battery!

[jerry]

my wifes 250cc rebel has viton parts in the keihan carbs keihan claim these parts are gasohol tolerant but in thailand the 10% gasohol kills her carbs in less than 30 minutes so she can only travel where pure benzine is sold ,, forunately about 60% of rest stops have pure benzine 95

[damien666]

Getting the valves done when im back. I doubt they have ever been done with 26k on the clock so might be interesting.

Damien, You had to put uprated cables? Where did you get them from?

Ill play it by ear for this year and keep in mind the Shorai for next season. Big lump of cash for a battery!

The starter cables were from exactuk ( i know some people make their own cables )
Also when doing valve clearances, i'm toying with the idea of changing all the shims and collets to MBP better quality versions.

[serialrisk]

Feel like im going round in circles here.

Starting to get thoroughly fed up. I now have intermittant starting issues. Sometimes starts first turn other times im at 6 full servo assisted starts before she will fire. BUT once running absolutely no issues. Also now it doesnt matter if teh engine is warm or cold. could have been running for an hour then wont start.

Ok, I have now fitted Iridium Plug. Replaced the rectifier, fitted a Shorai battery, uprated the starter cables.

The starter is turning the engine as i can see the clutch spinning.

I have checked there is a spark, though doesnt spark on every crank???

To me it feel like i am just being lucky that it happens to catch. sometimes just catched right, other times no.

There is definitely fuel, can smell it and back fires after so many cranks.

Tried increasing fuel on the Power Commander. that didnt work either.

Im wondering if my ignition coils are on the way out? I am not sure what are the signs of that.

cheers Jim

[Luddite]

Sorry to hear you're still having problems, Jim.

Just a quick reminder about your iridium plugs, make sure the gap is 0.95 - 1.00 mm. Don't assume they have been correctly set by the factory - mine were about 0.7 from the box.

If they do need adjusting, only bend the outer electrode as the centre one is very thin and very fragile.

Hope you sort it soon.