Carbon end caps for ally swingarms ... anyone fancy a joint purchase ?

[utopia]

I've got myself convinced that I need a pair of these, despite the price being ridiculous ....

http://www.mvs-performance.de/ALU-swingarm-endcaps-carbon-851-888-926-Corsa-PASO-907-M900

Roughly speaking, they're £100 a pair.
BUT, on visiting the checkout, I was offered the chance of a second pair at a significantly reduced price .... effectively making them roughly £85 a pair (both prices don't include postage).
Even at that price, they don't make financial sense, but I will probably have a pair anyway, even at full price, to set off my new carbon wheels.
But I would happily share a joint purchase if anyone fancies splitting the discount between us.
Anyone ?

[DrD]

Strangely I was humming about the alloy ones: http://www.mvs-performance.de/Ducati-851-888-Monster-900-1000-S4-ST4s-Set-Aluminum-Swingarm-End-Caps
Not sure about the carbon ones

[Mr Gazza]

Smiffy could make those.

[Darren69]

Interesting thatthhey list the alloy ones will fit the S4 and 888 etc but the carbon ones are not listed for s4. The S4 has gold alloy ones already but the carbon ones may be a nice if somewhat frivolous addition especially since I like the gold ones with my matching axle plates and I have a Metmachex swing arm that may or not go one at some point and has eccentric adjusters anyway!

[Flip]

Jeff, you best add a pair of these to your basket while you're at it then- just to make the postage worth it you understand:

http://www.mvs-performance.de/ALU-chain-tensioner-aperture-carbon-851-888-926-Corsa-PASO-907-M900


Strangely I was humming about the alloy ones: http://www.mvs-performance.de/Ducati-851-888-Monster-900-1000-S4-ST4s-Set-Aluminum-Swingarm-End-Caps
Not sure about the carbon ones

Has you 900 not already got a nice pair of gold alloy end caps as standard?

Just a little word of warning with regards to MVS Performance from my own personal experience when I did a bit of a refresh on my 900 early last year.

I bought a pair of these: http://www.mvs-performance.de/Chain-Tensioner-Covers-double-sided-swingarm-Monster-Aluminum-17-mm to replace the standard steel plates.

However, their added thickness over the steel means that using the 900's welded-on paddock stand bobbins to lift the bike using the genuine Ducati paddock stand originally supplied to 888's (my mate wangled one for the Monster from the dealer he bought the bike from when new) means it actually fouls the plates unless you modify the lifting forks somewhat.

When I contacted MVS about this I got a stream of abuse via email basically calling me a liar as they have sold hundreds of these without complaint and no such paddock stand was ever offered by Ducati for the Monster- I told them I knew that and the stand was for a 888 which used the same swing arm (and therefore would suffer the same issue) but then they simply when quiet.

So I would say be careful if you have to return anything.

[Darren69]

MVS, is that a company that took over Peter Dorsch racing? He used to be pretty good at dealing with issues and I have some of his stuff on my bike.

I only ask because a lot of the stuff they sell looks exactly like the Dorsh stuff he used to sell and whenever I google him I end up at the MVS site?

[utopia]

You're not the first to suggest that I should get the carbon side plates too, Flip.
But no, I wont be doing that ... not at that price.
Its bad enough just for the end caps, but the cost of the two together would be beyond ridiculous.
I did ponder their black anodised ally ones though.
BUT, I do have a plan, which will either mean continuing to use my existing homemade sideplates, slightly modified, or perhaps even making some copies of them in carbon.
In my opinion, my design is better than theirs anyway. :rolleyes:

[DrD]

Has you 900 not already got a nice pair of gold alloy end caps as standard?
Yes but one is badly scarred and they are gold and not titanium

[utopia]

I had to laugh ....
A quote from the listing for the carbon end caps ....

"Here we offer a set of swinging end caps."

Groovy !

[smiffyraf1]

they are the sex. im in with red insert! i could make them but i wouldnt know where they began to build in the strength to take the compression load, unless they are just covers for then end?! if so ill bloody make them!

edit. just seen these are the covers but surely the area around and under the bolt must be under crazy compression loads which carbon is **** in! i dont trust these at all unless they just cover the metal original which in my eyes is a bit mickey mouse anyway

[utopia]

There shouldn't be any loading of any consequence on them because you only adjust once the spindle nut has been slackened.

[slob]

The ally inserts protect the side plates from crushing and provide a bearing surface for the adjusters, which as utopia points out are under very little load. The inserts are easy enough to turn up in some 6xxx or similar. It's laminating them into the parts I'd be unsure of.

[smiffyraf1]

ahh course i forgot about tightening the spindle down. still even when you adjusting it mine are sometimes chuffing tight. thats a lot of pull. theres no way the resin could hold that insert in place under that load.

[smiffyraf1]

unless that insert is a top hat section but then all the pull is on the surrounding composite. hmmm i cant decide if i want a set just to see how they work!

[utopia]

Exactly .... I was going to post this ....

The insert will be like a top-hat washer and will be compressed onto the carbon as the adjuster bolt is tightened, so there's no load trying to rip it out against the bonding, which will be there mostly just to stop the insert falling out prior to fitting ....I presume.
Also, there should be very little torque required to shift the adjuster bolts ... maybe your internal adjuster blocks are sticking or have gummed-up threads ?

Ok, up to now we appear to have one additional order.
I presume further additions on top of that will attract the same discount (need to confirm this though).
If so, then that should put the price down by a further fiver or so each, if anyone orders a third pair.
And/or I might email them for a special, bulk price.

[utopia]

Smiffy ....
Your comment about compression loading on the carbon would of course apply to the side plates, where the spindle clamps them down.
For this reason I'm having second thoughts about the value of making these in carbon .. maybe ally is a far better material for this particular application.
However ....
I do have a design for side plates in carbon which you may be interested in making.
They're an extremely simple design.
Basically, imagine a carbon fibre disc 50mm dia and 4mm thick.
Bond a further strip of 4mm thick, 17mm wide carbon centrally across the back.
Then drill a 17mm hole in the centre.
The remainder of the strip on the back then sits in the axle slot and stops the washers turning when you tighten the spindle bolts ... thus avoiding the unsightly hooks around the bottom of the swinger in the std design.
This is effectively the same design as the stainless ones which I made for the steel swinger a year or so ago.
The spindle holes may need reinforcing with an insert though ... or perhaps even just a simple washer bonded onto the surface (I could make a batch of either easily enough ... though getting them anodised would add a certain extra cost)
Should be a pretty easy thing to mould I would have thought.
And maybe it could be moulded in one piece ... I only mentioned bonding to make the description easier (and cos that's the easy way to make them if I was doing it myself and not wanting to make a mould).
Food for thought .

[Mr Gazza]

When I read the thread title, all I can see is, Anyone fancy a joint.

I'm sure you realise that the end caps are handed. The inner side is shaved off the left hand cap to clear the sprocket nuts.
You can see this on the MVS ones if you look closely.

I shudder to think what would happen if an end cap were to swivel round on the move, should an adjuster bolt come undone....A wheel lock up for sure..!!

With this in mind, and also Smiffy's concern about the caps being stong enough, I would like to see a block of core mat, or some such, centered over the insert inside, to reinforce the cap in that area and also to locate the cap inside the arm. To prevent any possible rotation.

The MVS inserts seem to be needlessly thick veiwed from the inside?
They could be machined into quite thin walled tophats, but longer to gain full support from the core mat block....There's no length restriction inside.....I'm only talking about a 4 or 5mm thick block.

A square of 1/4' balsa wood that fitted the inside of the arm, would be enough....Oops aeromodeling past showing again..!!

[crust]

I shudder to think what would happen if an end cap were to swivel round on the move, should an adjuster bolt come undone....A wheel lock up for sure..!!



Happened to someone in the club back in the day, and yes eventually it locked the wheel but not before it destroyed the end of the arm (ally ver).

I found mine loose a couple times, decided I didn't like the risk and drilled a small hole in the arm + the plate and lockwire mine now.

Hitting a good pot hole or bumping up a kerb can be enough.

[Mr Gazza]

Happened to someone in the club back in the day, and yes eventually it locked the wheel but not before it destroyed the end of the arm (ally ver).

I found mine loose a couple times, decided I didn't like the risk and drilled a small hole in the arm + the plate and lockwire mine now.

Hitting a good pot hole or bumping up a kerb can be enough.

Ouch..!

Good call with the lockwire Crust..:thumbsup: Might give that some thought.

I always give my adjusters an extra nip, once the spindle is tight, to make sure they are secure, but it would be that which would crack the carbon ones I reckon?

[DrD]

Ouch..!

Good call with the lockwire Crust..:thumbsup: Might give that some thought.

I always give my adjusters an extra nip, once the spindle is tight, to make sure they are secure, but it would be that which would crack the carbon ones I reckon?

Which is what i do but gonna look at lock wire or some other fix
- guess why my left one is not perfect:on:

[Mr Gazza]

I think I might try sticking the caps on with silicone. It would be invisible, yet possible to break the bond if I ever wanted them off again.

[utopia]

This reminds me of a train of thought that I was on a couple of weeks ago.
Like Gazza, I always snug the chain adjuster bolts against the caps after tightening the spindle nuts, but I had noticed that the brake side one had come loose.
I began to consider replacing the bolt with a stud permanently fixed in the adjuster block and a nylok nut on the end.
This would have the added advantage of avoiding the chance of the adjuster bolts turning when you had the wheel out and the caps were loose ... so you wouldn't lose wheel alignment during maintenance work (which has been an issue in the past).
Ok, it wouldn't look as neat and there might be a moderate length of stud sticking out somewhat untidily from the end caps but I can put up with that sort of stuff if its for the sake of improved function.

I had a look at my old end caps from the steel swinger and they have quite decent tabs inside the arm which would need about 10mm of slack in the bolts before they could turn.
Given the length of thread engagement on the adjuster bolts, I would say that this is unlikely.
But that's a whole lot different to "impossible" so I mark it down as a design flaw (as evidenced by Crust).
The carbon end caps have external lips which wrap around the ends of the arm, but these don't look very long ... and so the bolts look like they wouldn't need to come undone by much.
That looks to me like a marginal design flaw made serious.
However, the stud idea, or wiring the end caps in place, would seem to offer a cure.
I'm not sure that the differences on the drive side cap make any difference other than allowing clearance ... a single sided lip should do the same job, or very similar, shouldn't it ?

I'm not sure whether the adjuster blocks can come back far enough to cause clearance issues with any internal retention blocks etc ....?
I don't have any blocks for the ally arm just yet, but did nab a bargain pair on ebay last night.
I'll have a closer look when they arrive, hopefully tomorrow.

I think I'll be taking one of the above precautions whatever end caps I fit, so my current thinking is that the carbon ones will still be safe and do a decent job.
But I'll sleep on it anyway.

On the size of the inserts, maybe they went for a bigger diameter than was strictly necessary because it gave a bigger contact area .... assuming perhaps that they are bonded in place ?

This is what I really like about the forum.
You can just chat about stuff you're thinking of doing and a whole bunch of other minds address the issue and come up with all sorts of unexpected stuff ... which often proves to be very significant.
Thanks folks.

[slob]

...The carbon end caps have external lips which wrap around the ends of the arm, but these don't look very long ...

Only 3 lips, not on the inside of the l/h adjuster, where it clears the sprocket. Look closely!

[smiffyraf1]

im afraid this is enough to put me off. im going to make a mock up one just to look at the forces involved but i dont think they will be fitted to mine just as i have found out in the past if something can go wrong it will go wrong to me :) i like the wire locking idea (aircraft engineer so use it all the time) but would mean bonding a locking tab on to cap as well as you can drill a hole in it too lock to as will pull trough really easily. i may be tempted to look at the alloy anodised end caps ive seen knocking about. im just off to make sure mine are secure. the day i got mine i put witness mark blobs on every single fastener. over the top i know but a nice quick way to see if stuff is moving. :D scary thought though!

[Stafford]

Peter at Oronero (http://www.oronero100.co.uk/ducati-851-888-parts.php) does them as well although not shown on his site.

Have a look here Blog (http://celeresracing.blogspot.co.uk/search?updated-max=2014-08-03T16:20:00%2B01:00&max-results=7&start=14&by-date=false) about half way down the page.

[slob]

Interesting, thanks Stafford. Do you use locknuts or wire on the end? I haven't found an assembled close up yet. I guess you've tested 'if it can come undone...' to the limit.

[utopia]

Only 3 lips, not on the inside of the l/h adjuster, where it clears the sprocket. Look closely!

Yes, I had already spotted that.
But I can't see that a single lip on the l/h adjuster would be any worse at retaining it than a double lip.
Well, not by a significant amount anyway.
The adjuster bolt would still have to work loose and unscrew far enough for the lip/s to clear.

It looks like their ally end caps are exactly the same design too.

[utopia]

Peter at Oronero (http://www.oronero100.co.uk/ducati-851-888-parts.php) does them as well although not shown on his site.
Have a look here Blog (http://celeresracing.blogspot.co.uk/search?updated-max=2014-08-03T16:20:00%2B01:00&max-results=7&start=14&by-date=false) about half way down the page.

They look decent.
The retaining lips look a little deeper on those ones too.
Though I guess that doesn't matter if you've taken steps to prevent the adjusters coming undone.
Interesting that you came up with the stud idea too.
And the roll-pin retainer to stop it turning is a neat point ... I had got as far as ruling out Loctite in favour of a grub-screw.

Race-tested eh ?
There's reassuring.

[slob]

I don't much fancy the health hazards of making your own, when you get to milling out the backs of the laminations.

[smiffyraf1]

its not too bad in all fairness once the resin is cured its pretty harmless, its breathing in the carbon dust that kills you.

[Stafford]

I lock wire the caps in place with a single loop at the top, just in case

[Stafford]

Interesting, thanks Stafford. Do you use locknuts or wire on the end? I haven't found an assembled close up yet. I guess you've tested 'if it can come undone...' to the limit.

Fuji nuts on the fixed studding.