Can you control oil temperature?

[Mr Gazza]

I've just nipped down to the petrol station for a fill up. It's about a 16 mile round trip with the stop for petrol half way.
There's a bit of a nip in the air this afternoon, and suprise! My oil level window shows condensation.
It's been fine all Summer, as I've managed some nice long rides in pleasant warmth.

Same bike, same oil, but different ambient conditions and use.

it makes me think again of the idea of thermostatically controlling the oil temp, as raised by Drumnagorrach here..http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=50829&page=2

This is a tricky problem, I'm not sure if there is such a thing as an oil thermostat?
It may well be a purely hypothetical debate, but with the longer nights coming up...Why not?

I am bothered by the idea of a thermostat shutting off the oil to the cooler until warmed for the following reasons.
1, Can you remove the cooler from the circuit on a Monster without effecting pressure or circulation?
2, Would it be bad, once the thermostat opened, to suddenly introduce cold oil to the system? And so on as the motor warmed up. (or not)
3 Would the pressure rise and fall as the 'stat opened and closed?

I am thinking that to preserve pressure and flow, that a servo controlled "blind" on the cooler might work?....Potentially complicated, as it would need a gismo with a chip and a program to make it work. Where to place the sensor? Or maybe pick up from the existing engine temp sensor.
Mine is an early injection model and does have an unsophisticated temp sensor but previous carbie models don't.

Mmm.. More questions than answers.:scratch:

[Darren69]

When I was running oil cooled Dukes 750/900SS all year round I used to run a baffle plate on my oil cooler during the cooler months mainly to help with the carb icing issues I was having at the time. Not an issue with the ie bikes but I wonder if the same would help to keep the oil temp up a bit?

[Capo]

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm143/Tarugo996/evo%20oil%20thermop_zpsrj3nkknw.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Tarugo996/media/evo%20oil%20thermop_zpsrj3nkknw.jpg.html)


http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm143/Tarugo996/oil%20thermo_zpsvewbrljw.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Tarugo996/media/oil%20thermo_zpsvewbrljw.jpg.html)

[emzedder]

Suffered this for years, Duke experts reckon limited to (a) running best full synth affordable (b) change oil and filter every 1000 miles (c) always run for long period and hot enough to burn off ... the moisture will migrate back in when cold. Same goes for an M21 Beeza except straight 40!

[Mr Gazza]

Darren, I think a baffle or blind would work to some extent, but without a temperature guage, it would be a wild stab in the dark. Hence my thoughts of a servo operated blind.

emzedder, it's the same old problem...Just a fact of life with an air cooled motor. I wonder if dry sump bikes are better than wet sump?
I have run plenty of dry sump bikes year round in the past, and they don't seem to condensate so badly....But then the Ducatis are the only bikes I can remember having a window in the crankcases....So is ignorance bliss?

Capo...That's too easy and not fair on a boy who has just dissappeared his oil cooler lines round the nearside..:confused:

Neat unit though. It must "short circuit" the oil back into the engine until the 'stat opens to the cooler(s).....I wonder if it would work as well placed nearer the cooler.?..In other words, out of sight.
Looks expensive though..:dizzy:

[emzedder]

Wet sump always worse because entire oil reservoir is exposed to heat and pressure whereas dry sump is limited ... water cooled's get to temp quicker because of thermostat not so vulnerable to low temp problems. So air cooled's are more prone.

VW boxer aircooled's are very prone to milky oil for same reason (and inlet tract frosting) ... voice of experience ...

[Mr Gazza]

Wet sump always worse because entire oil reservoir is exposed to heat and pressure whereas dry sump is limited ... water cooled's get to temp quicker because of thermostat not so vulnerable to low temp problems. So air cooled's are more prone.

VW boxer aircooled's are very prone to milky oil for same reason (and inlet tract frosting) ... voice of experience ...

That makes perfect sense.
Of course the water cooled's are also controlling the oil temp to some extent, by virtue of the oil being part of the same thermal mass as the engine.
Which comes back to the idea of a 'stat in a system which already has a radiator/cooler.

We live with these less than ideal things for years though, and that's the way it is if we run older machines, frozen at thier particular state of the art....you were seen in Aylsham on the M21 a couple of weeks ago btw..:chuckle:

[emzedder]

... just follow the oil drips through Aylsham ....

[Aviatore]

In Alaska the temp gets so low in winter that oil temp and water temps drop below operating level while driving so we fit baffles to the grille to limit the cooling airflow and hold operating temps. Usually leaving only about 10% of the grille exposed to the frigid incoming air.

While that's a bit extreme I think Darren's idea is simplest and cheapest. To keep an eye on the temp you could fit something like this and then just monitor it and adjust the baffle until you're satisfied.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-R-SERIES-ENGINE-OIL-TEMP-GUAGE-/131602709495?hash=item1ea421fbf7

Maintains the oil system in its stock form with all the supply and pressures as they should be without having to invent an electronic monitoring gizmo.

[Mr Gazza]

More wise words....I love that guage, but how do I know if the BMW filler cap thread is the same as my Ducati?

Your Alaskan reference reminds me of the instruction manual for the only brand new motorcycle I ever bought. A 650 Neval (Dnepr) Combo.
The manual went into some depth of the starting procedure, which changed as the temperature went below freezing in tens of degrees.
It described the size and amount of sticks to be used for the fire that should be lit under the sump prior to starting.
At -10 they talked of a couple of handfulls of pencil sized sticks...Going up to a substantial bonfire at -30 and below!!!....Bugger that.

[slob]

http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=45364

[Darren69]

Oil temp gauge for M900 ie:-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ducati-Monster-900-ie-M200AA-2000-Oil-Temperature-Gauge-Dipstick/331281245875?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%2 6asc%3D32958%26meid%3D8720f26362084b35b1d60c5eeb31 d975%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D2%26sd%3D4008 66418623

[Kato]

This is not a problem that hasn't been solved before, oil stats are fitted as std to Guzzi's, some good suggestions already, there are many producuts out there from manual valves to thermostatically controlled it really is just down to how much/little you want to spend

If you want to see what temp your oil is getting to I have one of those temp gauges Aviator/Darren mention that you could have for the cost of posting

http://www.jagg.com/by-pass.html Vey cheap manual bypass


I have used these a few time top quality piece of kit
http://www.improvedracing.com/oil-thermostats/high-flow-high-temp-engine-oil-cooler-thermostat-215f-p-434.html

[Darren69]

For the extra 20 bucks you the automatic one looks good too. Something for the xmas list? :)

[Mr Gazza]

Thanks for all the replies while I have been out playing.

This is spot on stuff. I feel that all my questions are answered regarding flow and "cold shock". Those 3D animations are brilliant.

An inline thermostat/bypass valve looks like the ideal. Just a matter of sorting out connections and a bit of hide away bracketry.

Kato, the temp gauge sounds like a good start to seeing what is going on before hacking the oil lines up.....Pm on it's way.

[Greyman]

Goodrich do one too, about 2/3 down the page, sorry no direct link... http://goodridge.brakes-hoses-fittings.co.uk/kit-parts/ancillary.php

[gary tompkins]

Oil temp gauge for M900 ie:-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ducati-Monster-900-ie-M200AA-2000-Oil-Temperature-Gauge-Dipstick/331281245875?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%2 6asc%3D32958%26meid%3D8720f26362084b35b1d60c5eeb31 d975%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D2%26sd%3D4008 66418623

I've had one of those on the trike since 2005 - they've been around for ages

[utopia]

This is getting interesting.
Its something I have vaguely pondered for a while now but never really looked at it seriously.
But although the monster sees minimal use in the winter, it's a keeper and it would make sense to reduce the long term engine wear from multiple cold starts and such unseasonal use that it does get.

I like the thermostatic bypass valves but I also want to re-route the oil line which crosses the belt covers.
I now find myself wondering if there's enough room to achieve both, probably using custom built oil lines rather than the Hypermotard line for re-routing.
So ..... does anyone know the dimensions of the thermo/bypass in Capo's link (particularly the "length"). .....the Improved Racing unit in Kato's link is 2ins long.
From Capo's pic with the two coolers, it looks a bit tight to get the necessary angled fitting in behind the exhaust header.

I wrote the above earlier but since then I've had a bit of a look at the bike and decided that the bypass unit would possibly sit nicely underneath the engine, in front of the starter.
This would allow both the feed and return lines to the cooler to be routed up the left/nearside of the bike.
The unit would also be neatly hidden by the bellypan (Black Bob, take note ;)).
And, lo and behold, here's a pic of that very setup on a(n) Hyper.

http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u644/photopia132/81816d1292975990-thermostat-system-hypermotard-20101214-031_zpsg58hkar8.jpg (http://s1326.photobucket.com/user/photopia132/media/81816d1292975990-thermostat-system-hypermotard-20101214-031_zpsg58hkar8.jpg.html)

Wouldn't it be neat if the original oil lines could be re-used as flow/return lines between the bypass unit and the cooler, leaving only a couple of short, custom lines needed between engine and bypass unit ?
....but that's probably asking a lot.

And at the end of all this comes the usual question.....
Is the simplicity of the original setup actually of more value ?
I'm undecided, but erring on the side of fitting the bypass.
Though, Gazza, if you end up with a spare hypermotard oil line going cheap, I might be interested. :rolleyes:

[Aviatore]

I think Kato's automatic bypass is a very elegant solution. But I have a few reservations about it. I like that it has very few parts to go wrong, less likely to leave you with an oil slick on the side of the road. But it may not be good in a road application.

I don't know what the 900sie oil temp range is supposed to be but that bypass says it holds a min temp of 215F/102C +/- 5F, that seems high for a road bike that must deal with stop and go traffic.

At the top end of these guys' discussion but still ok...
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=55884.0

In a race bike it wouldn't be an issue, they have consistent high speed air through the oil cooler for the majority of the time the engine is running, they can afford to lose the heat sink that the oil provides when going slow because they're not going to be slow very often so the oil cooler should handle it fine. Plus they'd probably prefer to have hotter and less viscous oil in the engine to reduce HP loss. They're trading off engine wear protection and longevity though, and they'll likely have much tighter time limits at idle or slow speeds before the engine risks overheating.

I would also be concerned about the bottom end. With only oil and air cooling available in stock form, this could reduce the oil cooling effect leaving only the air fins to deal with it all. They'll take the heat away at the cylinders and heads but the lower end will be left with less margin for error. With less margin a long red light or heavy traffic could put you on the side of the road waiting for temps to drop.

I think the goal of getting to temp faster is a good one for removing the condensation but if it puts you close to the upper limit with few options to keep you going over it's going make the bike a pain to ride.

Perhaps the manual bypass would be better, you could run up to the high side of the temp range and then open the oil cooler valve and have the full cooling effects that the engineers designed into the engine restored... just don't forget to open it up!

[Dukedesmo]

I don't know what the 900sie oil temp range is supposed to be but that bypass says it holds a min temp of 215F/102C +/- 5F, that seems high for a road bike that must deal with stop and go traffic.



I would also have concerns over that temperature. My M900 ran too hot with one cooler, it also ran quite hot with two (one over, one under the front cylinder) standard coolers but now that I have a (very) large 1098RS cooler fitted under the cylinder and a more free flow of air to the rear cylinder, it actually runs on the cool side despite having blanked off part of the cooler - oil temps are generally in the 60's but will reach 80 in traffic.

However I'm not convinced that oil temps of over 100 degrees C is good? My 916 which is water cooled runs (under normal conditions) with a water temp of around 80-85 degrees and the oil is usually around 5-7 degrees less. Even if stuck in traffic when the water will quickly reach 100 ish degrees the oil is still cooler than the water - and this bike has the standard rad/cooler setup, so I'm not convinced Ducati intended temps of 100 degrees.

On the old-style Monster (with oil jacket around the cylinder) we are relying on the oil to act as coolant and lubricant and I made many modifications (too many perhaps?) to mine to increase the cooling ability because I want to avoid the rear cylinder overheating.

I'll try blanking more of the cooler as the over-cooling only happens at speed and, I reckon the large cooler will still do most of it's cooling in traffic due to it's large surface area even if blanked at the front.

I have built a slot-in blanking system into the cooler guard so I can drop a thin sheet of carbon-fibre or similar in as a blank so just need to fit a larger sheet.

I like the idea of the thermostat but reckon 80 or max 90 degrees would be better...

[Capo]

Consider that the boiling point of water is 100C. An oil temp of 102 will cause any water to boil off and reduce/eliminate emulsification which I believe is the intent of the OP

[slob]

Most car oil thermostats aeem to kick in around 185f (~80c) which sounds about right.
My manual says test oil pressure 80c +.
The problem I can see with the car kit is it's AN-10 or 3/4", you want something around AN-6 or 3/8"

[utopia]

Following the link on their website, I discovered that "Improved Racing" have a UK distributer..."Never Lift - Europe", based in Ilkeston.
The distributer's website gives a bit more detail.
It seems that there are two models, operating at different temperatures.
The FSM-215 in Kato's link maintains a temp of 215 F (102 C) before opening the main flow to the cooler, while the FSM-185 maintains 187 F (86 C).
The latter sounds about right.......?

http://never-lift.com/?product=improved-racing-in-line-engine-oil-cooler-thermostat

Unfortunately they list their stock at zero, and I haven't been able to find their phone number to make an enquiry.

[Aviatore]

Consider that the boiling point of water is 100C. An oil temp of 102 will cause any water to boil off and reduce/eliminate emulsification which I believe is the intent of the OP

Is the goal really to boil the water off or get up to temp faster so it turns to vapor and is more easily vented?

At 80C the water won't boil but it'll get warm enough to become suspended in the air and vent out. I think the purpose is to get the temp up faster so short rides like his original 16 mile round trip can accomplish this and condensation isn't left on the internals.

[utopia]

My thinking was that 86 C would be a suitable minimum temp before the oil is directed to the cooler.
The oil temp would then continue to rise (but more slowly) until it reached its normal operating temp.
Thus the oil would initially be heated much faster, reducing cold-start engine wear.
Subsequently, a stable running temp would be achieved more quickly, so oil emulsion would be removed more effectively too.

[Capo]

Is the goal really to boil the water off or get up to temp faster so it turns to vapor and is more easily vented?

At 80C the water won't boil but it'll get warm enough to become suspended in the air and vent out. I think the purpose is to get the temp up faster so short rides like his original 16 mile round trip can accomplish this and condensation isn't left on the internals.

Water vaporises at 100C (at atmospheric pressure), at 80C its still liquid albeit relatively hot

How can water be suspended in air if its not in it's vapour stage.

100C is an acceptable operating temperature for engine lubricating oil.

[Dirty]

Water vaporises at 100C (at atmospheric pressure), at 80C its still liquid albeit relatively hot

How can water be suspended in air if its not in it's vapour stage.


So are clouds 100°C? After rain do puddles reach 100°C before drying out?

[utopia]

100C is an acceptable operating temperature for engine lubricating oil.

....and, using the unit rated to "blow off" at 86 C, the oil will still ultimately reach the same operating temp.
It will just get there more quickly, with the temp rising rapidly to 86, then more slowly after the cooler kicks in.

...as I'm sure you realise.
I'm just filling in the detail here.

Though, I confess, I have no hard info on which to base my choice of 86 C as the "blow off" temp (other than Slob's info of 80 C, that is).
But it seems reasonable to deduce that the higher temp-rated unit is intended for competition use where ultra fast warm-up is required, while the 86 C unit might be aimed more at road use ? ....subject to further discussion/confirmation.

also, Kato says Guzzis already use oil stats.
I wonder what temp they blow off at ....?

[Aviatore]

My point wasn't that we're trying to boil the water, just that we're trying to let the engine take care of itself by warming up to normal temperature quicker.

There's a lot of interaction between temperature, pressure and the volume of air with regards to how it pulls water vapor into or pushes it out of the air. It would take volumes to to explain so lets just use a basic concept.

-Higher ambient air temperatures hold more water in vapor form than lower temperatures, even below 100C.

Think the humid tropics vs the dry arctic air. Both places are evaporating or sublimating water vapor into the air all the time, its just that the air's capacity to hold it in suspension increases or decreases with the temperature respectively. Saturation Vapor Pressure and Relative Humidities if you want to read a bit more about these interactions.

On the surface it would appear that higher temps would be good because more of the water will be held in suspension and vented out. But thats not really the issue, the engineers that designed it have already addressed the problem of condensation venting so really all that needs to be done is to get the engine to normal operating temperature so it can do its job. Whether that means getting there quicker with an oil cooler bypass or just riding longer is Gazza's choice, if he simply can't ride longer then I'd caution him not to put a bypass that creates a temperature "floor" which is above the normal operating range. If the oil cooler bypass maintains 102C minimum and that is above the normal temperature range of a 900sie then he'll burn up his engine because the bypass will not allow it to cool itself below 102C.

[Mr Gazza]

Doh!...Turn your back for five minutes.
No way I can reply to all these posts in detail, but very chuffed that this has got folk thinking. Thank you all for your input.

I have absorbed all that has been said and linked to, and dissagree with very little of it.
I am on a very steep learning curve here, and though this was initially a theoretical exersize, it is revealing some realistic practical applications.

I do think that 102C would be too high for an air cooled Monster. I was thinking more in the region of 90C. Maybe somewhere between 80 and 90C would be the ballpark.

The Goodridge one runs at 75C and Thermostasis list units from 77C to 102C.

I don't think that running the oil hotter is the answer here, but to run it at a more even temp'
which allows the engine to maintain a steady even temperature throughout, less at the mercy of ambient conditions.
The problem is more one of over cooling in the UK, and thermostatic control addresses that.
The more even the temp' in the engine, the less likely it is for the water vapour to find a cold spot and condense, and so be exhaled as vapour via the breather. Aside from just simply being healthier.

An over-heat is governed by the size of the radiator and the air flow over it, and as such beyond the control of a thermostat. Rad size is fixed, (even if you have fixed two big ones!) so the only remedy is to increase the air flow over the rad, either by moving forward through the air (Not always possible on a tunnel run!) or forcing air over it with a fan...As in a water cooling system....My problem is not in this area (except for one single night in forty one years of motorcycling..:D)

Jeff, I think I would cut my Hyper' lines to preserve the nice look of the fittings on the offside, and fit a 'stat in front of the starter like your photo, but with the fittings over and under rather than side by side. with the elbows fitted on the nearside of the stat, in a slightly splayed fasion. I think the lines rising from it would follow pretty much the line that they already do. Theres a handy bolt hole in the barrel base to fix the bracket.

I wonder if "Never Lift" is real? finish the line and you get Never lift a finger.!
The address; 18 Nesfield Rd Ilkeston DE7 8AY....It's a house in a row of others?
Company has been going just over a year and has no company records?...Why have they made it so hard to contact them?....See what I'm thinking? Hope I'm wrong and that we can all buy our new 'stats there.

[emzedder]

Do like I do in deep winter carry black gaffa tape and apply / remove to cooler as appropriate ....

[Mr Gazza]

Do like I do in deep winter carry black gaffa tape and apply / remove to cooler as appropriate ....

Next you'll be telling me you stop at the bottom of the hill to take a link out and then stop at the top to put it back in again.....:chuckle:

[emzedder]

Can't beat simplicity if it works .... used it on TZ's to prevent cold seizure ....

[Mr Gazza]

Can't beat simplicity if it works ....


Amen.:hail:

[slob]

never lift off the throttle!

[Dirty]

I believe heavy water has a higher boiling point. So don't use it for your laundry or it will never get dry on the line :)

[Mr Gazza]

Kato's temperature gauge filler cap arrived today...Nice suprise...Thank you Kato, but please let me know how to get some funds to you. I don't know your address or email.

Needless to say I popped the gauge in and had a quick trial blast before tea time.
At the end of my lane, which I had always thought was enough to warm an engine through...The gauge read a mere 50C.
Stopping at junctions to check the dial revealed no more than 50C after some enthusiastic open road riding, until nearly the end of my 16 mile trip when it just reached 60 after about a mile at 30mph.
It rose to 70C after being parked for a few minutes.

After chatting to my mate for some minutes it had cooled to 50C again, and I set off for home in somewhat cooler air. Too dark to check en-route this time, but it had reached 60C again by the time I got home.
It rose to 80C parked in it's shed after about 15 or so minutes.
The window was clear of fog throughout.

This is telling me that over-cooling is a real phenomenon and that it will probably benifit from a thermostat, but that overheating may occur quite rapidly once slowed in traffic and so on.

Early days for the gauge yet, so we will see how it goes in other conditions and on longer rides, but I think a 'stat would have helped on this evening's ride.

[Aviatore]

So I'm currently in the propulsion section of the ATPL exams which includes piston and turbine engines... I'm more familiar with turbines but in rehashing all the piston engine/carburetor SH-TUFF ad-nauseum here's an outside the box idea. Lean your fuel-air mixture. It will raise the engine temp as you'll have less fuel cooling effect.

I also took a look at the parts list for the bike, no thermostatically controlled oil bypasses, though there is a bypass valve which I believe is for blockages/overpressure protection as its only a spring control near the pump. Parts 29-31

http://s28.postimg.org/mqspdcbml/Screen_Shot_2015_09_25_at_7_32_26_AM.png

http://s22.postimg.org/jnt9fa069/Screen_Shot_2015_09_25_at_7_32_37_AM.png

Finally remembering back to my dirt bike days I remembered that air-cooled engines are more tolerant of temperature fluctuations than liquid cooled engines. They're simply designed to cope with wider temp ranges and generally run cooler than liquids do. Cautious engineers will have surely designed it to be on the safe side as it'd be required to work in Italian summers as well as UK winters. Add in your observations with the gauge and I think you should have plenty of wiggle room for an 80* thermostat. Might not be able to get there on a winter highway run but as long as its within the recommended temp range of the bike it should be an ok temp floor. Would just require that you're a little more cautious on those rare hot summer days.

[Mr Gazza]

Just had a message from Kato, still keeping his contact details a secret and telling me not to worry about the postage.....I am humbled and flattered at the same time.
Thanks again Kato...I will get you back somehow..:biggrin:
:ukm:

Aviatore, You know you shouldn't think outside the box...The box is there for a reason..:chuckle:
You are probably familliar with the story of the development of the P38 Lightning?
In order to improve it's rather poor range, a test pilot leaned and leaned the mixture and did return a much improved range, but they had to add water/alcohol injection to keep things cool.

Not sure that generating more heat is the way to go?

I hear what you say about how the aircooled Ducati is engineered. The very high milages that some of those engines rack up, bears testiment to the fact that something is rather right with them.

The bike seemed perfectly happy at 50C. 50 to 60C is probably normal for my bike?
I am more concerned that the temperature does not fluctuate too wildly between fast blasts and stop/go crawling. Initial results seem to indicate that it is fairly stable, if a little low perhaps....I had always had a figure in my mind of about 70C being ideal for an oil operating temp'....Not sure where I got that from?
Anyway...Still learning. I won't be altering the oil system until I have watched that gauge for at least another season...Don't think it will be over-heating for at least another 9 months!!

My clutch will need the attention of my wallet before any thermostats.
At the moment I'm enjoying the cerebral stimulation and the wonderful generosity of my club mates..:biggrin:
:ukm:

[Capo]

You are probably familliar with the story of the development of the P38 Lightning?
In order to improve it's rather poor range, a test pilot leaned and leaned the mixture and did return a much improved range, but they had to add water/alcohol injection to keep things cool.

It wasn't a test pilot, it was Charles Lindbergh who used his experience with the Spirit of St Lewis.
He conducted tests with the 475th Fighter Group during the Pacific war. He was attached as a civilian and actually flew combat missions.

"Lindbergh explained cruise control techniques he had worked out for the Lightnings: reduce the standard 2,200 rpm to 1,600, set fuel mixtures to "auto-lean," and slightly increase manifold pressures. This, Lindbergh predicted, would stretch the Lightning's radius by 400 hundred miles, a nine-hour flight.

The group’s chief concern surfaced quickly, that such procedures would foul sparkplugs and scorch cylinders.

Lindbergh methodically gave the answer. The Lightning's technical manual provided all the figures necessary to prove his point; they had been there all along.

The next day, the Fourth of July, Lindbergh accompanied the 433rd on a six-hour, forty-minute flight led by Captain "Parky" Parkansky. Upon landing, the lowest fuel level recorded was 160 gallons."

The principle use of water/methanol injection is to produce more power.

[Mr Gazza]

Blast it! I knew it was a famous aviator, but I couldn't remember his name, and was too lazy to google it.

Thanks for filling in Capo...:biggrin:

[gary tompkins]

Do like I do in deep winter carry black gaffa tape and apply / remove to cooler as appropriate ....

That's all I've ever done on mine

Why **** about with anything more complicated if it works?

[pompone]

That's all I've ever done on mine

Why **** about with anything more complicated if it works?

The voice of reason! If is good enough for these guys..
http://photo.gp/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Suzuki-GSX-RS-radiator-Assen-2015.jpg

[Dirty]

Fortunately some designers and engineers don't accept 'good enough'

http://www.gregwilliams.ca/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/ducati-11.jpg

and push forward to make things 'more complicated' which many would call 'better' :mand:


http://www.1199panigale.ducati.com/images/panigale/slices/home/bg_slice01min.jpg

[pompone]

Fortunately some designers and engineers don't accept 'good enough'



Picture is off the Suzuki MotoGP, Assen round. I think they know what they're doing (they surely know more than me). Of course I'm sure they'll read this thread and nick an idea or two ;)
Re the panigale do you know how they keep the oil temperature checked? With a KTM part that, incidentally, leaks and breaks. An idea that comes from 80's cars., so nothing cutting edge there. If my memory serves me right you were there when I fixed one such issue, albeit on a Streetfighter.

[Mr Gazza]

http://www.gregwilliams.ca/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/ducati-11.jpg


Phwoar...:thumbsup:

9 out of 10 for that.....Would have been 10 out of 10 if it was an Orange over Black one...:biggrin:

[Dirty]

Picture is off the Suzuki MotoGP, Assen round. I think they know what they're doing (they surely know more than me). Of course I'm sure they'll read this thread and nick an idea or two ;)
Re the panigale do you know how they keep the oil temperature checked? With a KTM part that, incidentally, leaks and breaks. An idea that comes from 80's cars., so nothing cutting edge there. If my memory serves me right you were there when I fixed one such issue, albeit on a Streetfighter.

Are you going to trade in your 996 for a horse then? I mean it's less complicated and it works. If it's good enough for Frankie Dettori..... :D

[pompone]

Are you going to trade in your 996 for a horse then? I mean it's less complicated and it works. If it's good enough for Frankie Dettori..... :D

That doesn't address the point. If you can control MotoGP rocketships with tape why would you twist yourself in a knot with pressure regulators and such on the road?
My point was that on the Panigale, once you get into the bowels of the system things are not as cutting edge as the PR dept. would have you believe. Yes is an awesome machine but they got caught in the BHP hype for no reason at all. I bet that if they put the old 1098 in WSBK they would have won another championship by now.

[gary tompkins]

I bet that if they put the old 1098 in WSBK they would have won another championship by now.

You'll probably have more luck getting an 'old tech' 1098 through trackday noise limits as well

[utopia]

That doesn't address the point. If you can control MotoGP rocketships with tape why would you twist yourself in a knot with pressure regulators and such on the road?


Because, although tape is an effective way of achieving its purpose in a race bike, and its use fits well in a scenario where much fettling of the entire machine takes place through practice etc to set the bike up perfectly for the prevailing conditions, which are themselves by definition merely a snapshot in time, a road bike on the other hand needs to perform at the press of a button under a wide range of conditions with zero fettling.
And so, all things considered, while tape might be fine for those motoGP bodgers ;), it simply aint good enough for my monster.
And I can't be arsed to fit (and later remove) tape every time I warm up the engine.
By comparison, a simple thermal switch which does the job automatically is far less hassle.

The simplest solution to the slow warm-up issue might be to remove the cooler altogether.:eyepopping:
The 600 gets away without one, so my 750 can't be far away.
And anyway, what's the betting that the cooler only ever appeared in the first place so that it could be used in Superbike racing, and its presence on at least some of the monster range is cosmetic as much as anything ? ...a sales gimmick with "racing heritage".:rolleyes:
I'm not saying its as simple as that, but it may be part of the story.

Personally though, I like the idea of a cooler.
But, if I'm going to lug one around, I want it to work as well as it can.
In particular, I don't want its presence to be of any detriment to the engine whatsoever ...rather the reverse ...and so the issue of slow warm up and overcooling is fairly high on my list of priorities.
I wouldn't care so much if I was likely to sell the bike in a year or two, because you'd never know the difference in such a short time, but this monster is a lifetime keeper and so I am expecting those chickens home to roost at some stage.

I'm still unsure though.
Is the loss in simplicity worth the gain ?
And if not, should I junk the cooler entirely ?
I'm inclined to think that if the cooler stays, it demands a bypass, otherwise the whole thing is a bit half-cocked.

[utopia]

Kato's temperature gauge filler cap arrived today...............

Its good to have some temperature measurements, but I'm not sure how far I trust these ones.
Presumably the gauge has a probe which "dips its toe" into the oil, but its hard to see how this can be achieved on a gauge like this which is fitted into the oil filler hole.
It seems unlikely that such a probe would be long enough to dip into the oil in the sump so does it dip into an oil gallery or just rely on splash ?
Any chance of a pic ?
Either way, I would say that the readings are probably open to some "interpretation".
In particular, I'm surprised that the measured temp was only 60C after 16 miles.
And I'm also a bit baffled by the apparent (and significant) increase in oil temp after the end of each run.

I noticed, on a cooler from a Hyper, that they have what looks like a temp sensor fitted into one of the oil line connections.
One would assume that this would give a more reliable reading.
I don't know whether its fitted to the cooler inlet or outlet though.

In fact my gut feeling is that, regardless of any test readings, its a fair deduction that the cooler must be inhibiting the fast warm-up of the engine and that a thermo-bypass unit is bound to improve the situation.
The only real question in my mind is, what is a suitable "blow off" temp for the bypass unit ?
And again, my gut feeling is that the best choice might well be the commercially available unit which has the lowest blow off temp, ie around 70 C.
But I do like the design of the unit in Kato's link (the lower rated one of the two) because of its low pressure drop characteristics.

[Dirty]

That doesn't address the point. If you can control MotoGP rocketships with tape why would you twist yourself in a knot with pressure regulators and such on the road?
My point was that on the Panigale, once you get into the bowels of the system things are not as cutting edge as the PR dept. would have you believe. .

But that didn't address the point either. The 750 and the Panigale were just examples. Sure if you go into detail you can find fault but the point was that if you accept things are 'good enough' they will never improve. You can't disprove that by saying the 1098 is better than the Panigale or that modern Ducati's use KTM bits that aren't great. Nor can you hold up what is done in high level racing as the way to do things for a road bike. Unless you are advocating changing tyres every 70 miles. F1 did away with tape years ago. They use different sized radiators according to the track and temperature which is an 'improvement' only in racing terms. I doubt many people would be happy if when they picked up their new machine it came with a box of rads which needed to be changed with the weather, or indeed some gaffa tape and instructions!

[pompone]

F*ck me people, it seems to me we're talking a lot of theory here with very little practical foundation. Tell you what, want to put a wotsit regulator or a fluffer valve? Go for it. Me, I keep myself to myself and keep building bikes :rolleyes:

[Kato]

F*ck me people, it seems to me we're talking a lot of theory here with very little practical foundation. Tell you what, want to put a wotsit regulator or a fluffer valve? Go for it. Me, I keep myself to myself and keep building bikes :rolleyes:

OoooH steady on Max talking sense on here will just get you blacklisted:dizzy:

[Aviatore]

I'm going to shamelessly stir the pot a bit with my very own points to address... :biggrin:

why would you twist yourself in a knot with pressure regulators and such on the road?

Because its fun. Tinkering with our bikes in the effort to make them better and enjoying it is just more interesting than doing what I've seen most of the Beemer guys do. "Ve must consult mit ze all knowing motorrad catalogue. If it is not in there then it must not be a problem."

Odds are that the engineers who designed it figured that the amount of condensation in the case wasn't enough to worry about. The oil coating everything in the case probably protects long enough until the next ride vents it off.

Is the loss in simplicity worth the gain?
And if not, should I junk the cooler entirely ?

Is it really going to gum up the works by splicing in a thermostat controlled valve? Its two extra oil hoses, four extra seals and the valve mechanism. Not too complicated a mod and its using very simple and proven technologies.


I initially thought the idea of removing the cooler altogether might be interesting but on further thought I think the consequences would be worse than it initially seems.

If you remove it and have to plug the output and input lines, how will that affect oil pump output pressure? In cutting out a big part of the system, might that not cause the oil pump to push the normal (now excess) volume into smaller galleries or other places where seals weren't designed to handle it? Will that require a smaller oil pump to solve that problem?

What if you just routed an oil line from the output to the input intstead? Would that drop in pressure because its got no oil cooler restriction mean that the smaller galleries are now going to be starved?

What would the decrease in total system volume mean for your oil levels? You'll have to put in less oil than stock or you'll be overfilled. If you didn't get it right you could have too little oil or too much with all the knock on effects.

Also if you did get it right would you now have to solve the problem of too little oil? The mass of it acts as a heatsink so now are you going to overheat because you have less mass and no oil cooler? A double shot of cooling reduction?

Just my 2¢

[Dukedesmo]

Presumably the gauge has a probe which "dips its toe" into the oil, but its hard to see how this can be achieved on a gauge like this which is fitted into the oil filler hole.
It seems unlikely that such a probe would be long enough to dip into the oil in the sump so does it dip into an oil gallery or just rely on splash ?
.

The oil filler opening is also a pressurised feed to the engine - try starting (or rather don't :eek:) your bike without the filler cap. So oil is pushed up there to be fed to the cylinders etc.

I've got one of those oil temp filler caps and I fitted it to double-check oil temps against my digital gauge (which reads from the oil pump pickup filter) and it gives the same reading, so I would trust it to be fairly accurate even if impractical to use whilst riding.

I have the same design of temp/cap for the Guzzi and that does extend into the sump, acting as a combined dipstick/temp gauge/filler cap.

[Dukedesmo]

I initially thought the idea of removing the cooler altogether might be interesting but on further thought I think the consequences would be worse than it initially seems.

If you remove it and have to plug the output and input lines, how will that affect oil pump output pressure? In cutting out a big part of the system, might that not cause the oil pump to push the normal (now excess) volume into smaller galleries or other places where seals weren't designed to handle it? Will that require a smaller oil pump to solve that problem?



You would remove the bypass plate above the oil cooler and plug the output/input to the cooler, which is how the M600, 600SS, 748 and other, cooler-less Ducatis are configured, no need to change the pump.

[Aviatore]

You would remove the bypass plate above the oil cooler and plug the output/input to the cooler, which is how the M600, 600SS, 748 and other, cooler-less Ducatis are configured, no need to change the pump.

What if you just routed an oil line from the output to the input intstead? Would that drop in pressure because its got no oil cooler restriction mean that the smaller galleries are now going to be starved?

All hypothetical questions meant to stir the pot... clearly it wasn't required! :dizzy:

[Dirty]

F*ck me people, it seems to me we're talking a lot of theory here with very little practical foundation.

fo·rum
ˈfôrəm/
noun
noun: forum; plural noun: forums; plural noun: fora

1.
a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.
"it will be a forum for consumers to exchange their views on medical research"
synonyms: meeting, assembly, gathering, rally, conference, seminar, convention, symposium, colloquium, caucus; More

[Capo]

F*ck me people, it seems to me we're talking a lot of theory here with very little practical foundation.

Indeed

Where's the evidence? Engineering is not based on assumptions or guesswork.

The bull excrement keeps getting deeper

[Dirty]

The bull excrement keeps getting deeper

When you turn up yes. Spotted any 100°c clouds lately? :mand:

[Aviatore]

F*ck me people, it seems to me we're talking a lot of theory here with very little practical foundation.

All practical application starts as theory and Gazza has made a practical step by installing the temp gauge. Once he's seen and collected a baseline on how the bike reacts in different situations he can make an educated choice.

If you want to install the 102* or 80* temp bypass on your own bike without thinking it through first then I'm sure we'd all love to hear what practical effect it has.

[Capo]

When you turn up yes. Spotted any 100°c clouds lately? :mand:

You know nothing
You contribute nothing
Found out where the oil drain plug is yet

[Mr Gazza]

All practical application starts as theory and Gazza has made a practical step by installing the temp gauge. Once he's seen and collected a baseline on how the bike reacts in different situations he can make an educated choice.

If you want to install the 102* or 80* temp bypass on your own bike without thinking it through first then I'm sure we'd all love to hear what practical effect it has.

Thanks Aviatore.
The thread title is a question...Something to muse, some bubblegum for the mind.
I didn't think that there would be any practical avenues to follow, but it turns out that there could well be.

My first question has raised yet more questions, with no particularly correct answer for any one person or bike.

It's just an idea we can have some fun with.

...Dirty and Capo go and stand in opposite corners and face the wall....:chuckle:...See me after the lesson..:twak:

[Dirty]

You know nothing
You contribute nothing
Found out where the oil drain plug is yet

Nope, but I know where your button is :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

[Mr Gazza]

Right.! That's it.....Headmasters Office...Now.

[Dirty]

Right.! That's it.....Headmasters Office...Now.

Is he doing extra lessons in the science of water vapour? :biggrin:

Considering I 'know nothing' yet I'm aware that water can be a vapour at temps below 100°c does that mean those who don't, know less than nothing? :confused: :biggrin:

[Mr Gazza]

:banghead:

[pompone]

All practical application starts as theory and Gazza has made a practical step by installing the temp gauge. Once he's seen and collected a baseline on how the bike reacts in different situations he can make an educated choice.

If you want to install the 102* or 80* temp bypass on your own bike without thinking it through first then I'm sure we'd all love to hear what practical effect it has.

Yes, perhaps. But I've had one of those gauges for years and the accuracy is vague at best. A baseline is worthless unless the instrument is accurate.
I'm just one of the people that tends not to overthink, the old "what's not there doesn't brake and weights nothing" stands true for me.
Second point to s moot, as I'm not planning to fit one anyway.
My opinion should be respected just as much as everyone else, without calling MotoGP mechanics "bodgers" or accusing of being a luddite. There are many people in here that base post on a vast experience and knowledge, and should be listened, not mocked or chastised. That said, I invite everyone to go try and report, pushing the envelope. But until then is still just theory.

[pompone]

Right.! That's it.....Headmasters Office...Now.

Good luck with that ;)

[Darren69]

Thanks Aviatore.
The thread title is a question...Something to muse, some bubblegum for the mind.
I didn't think that there would be any practical avenues to follow, but it turns out that there could well be.

My first question has raised yet more questions, with no particularly correct answer for any one person or bike.

It's just an idea we can have some fun with.

...Dirty and Capo go and stand in opposite corners and face the wall....:chuckle:...See me after the lesson..:twak:

I think you're on the right lines Gary. There is plenty of information on the web on method validation which will discuss robustness, repeatability and regression testing methodology and much more. Robustness is concerning equipment so vary that if possible (get another gauge and compare results in the same conditions) repeatability is more end user so if another rider can get the same results as you etc. Anyway plenty of scope but you're on the right lines. Data is your friend, you can even apply six sigma and establish process control limits if you have enough valid data to be able to define some specification limits.

Anyway, can we please use some punctuation in replies as otherwise makes very little sense? Thanks

[utopia]

My "bodgers" comment was meant in jest, btw.
Hence the wink/smiley/thingy.

[Aviatore]

A baseline is worthless unless the instrument is accurate.
I'm just one of the people that tends not to overthink, the old "what's not there doesn't brake and weights nothing" stands true for me.

Agreed, the gauge should be validated... I also agree that simple solutions tend to work best, but that doesn't mean we can't explore other options.

The tape/baffle idea was discussed right from post 2 and while it wasn't specifically said it was probably passed over because it's more work and not particularly pleasing aesthetically. Adjusting it for each ride's ambient conditions is a small job for a Moto GP team but it'll just get annoying if you have to guess how much to apply before riding, then stop and adjust mid-ride. The goal appears to be a turn key automatic system, once its in it doesn't need to be fiddled with.

I think the current line of thinking is actually a pretty simple system but it does have the potential for permanent damage if not done correctly... thus all the theory discussion.

Must have missed the bodgers comment... I'm guessing that's a bad thing! :eek:

[Dirty]

Must have missed the bodgers comment... I'm guessing that's a bad thing! :eek:

I missed the Luddite comment myself. That perked my interest as I was recently called that by Boris Johnson no less.

Everyone's experience is valued here, by most people. There are some though, not Max, that seem to think they are so clever that their comments are pronouncements and so wise and sage that any further discussion afterwards is taken as a personal slight against them. This level of ridiculous pomposity invites ridicule and I admit I find it hard not to :)

[utopia]

Ooooh, you lucky people.
I've just written my most rambly.est post ever, but my laptop battery ran out and I've lost it. :D

Long story short.
Gazza's data, good start now that gauge is verified.
Maybe try back to back runs with/without tape on cooler ?
More from oil companies, Guzzi, Harley.
I've bought Hyper lines, and also rad with temp probe.
Might cut lines and insert bypass later, but just clean up beltside for now.
Either way, I reckon that these end fittings are needed....

http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u644/photopia132/34rykr41_zpsmkcksvpf.jpg (http://s1326.photobucket.com/user/photopia132/media/34rykr41_zpsmkcksvpf.jpg.html)

100 misty dawn miles today, 100 more back after dark....overcooling/slow warm-up on my mind.

Good quality, smallish 70 C bypass units are available.

[utopia]

Also...
Think I need one of those gauges too.
And how to achieve readout from temp sensor in Hyper cooler .... any ideas ?
....could be temporary lash-up, but toyed with new electronic dash with temp readout .... perhaps o.t.t.
Might have g.p.i. though, too, but, also. :eek:

[slob]

I missed the Luddite comment myself. That perked my interest as I was recently called that by Boris Johnson no less.

Everyone's experience is valued here, by most people. There are some though, not Max, that seem to think they are so clever that their comments are pronouncements and so wise and sage that any further discussion afterwards is taken as a personal slight against them. This level of ridiculous pomposity invites ridicule and I admit I find it hard not to :)

Please just let it bloody go and Google Boyle's Law if you want your original post answered, otherwise I'm inclined to agree with the engineers you find ridiculously pompous

[Dirty]

Please just let it bloody go and Google Boyle's Law if you want your original post answered, otherwise I'm inclined to agree with the engineers you find ridiculously pompous


I don't need to google it. Iirc it's about volume and pressure under constant temp and is irrelevant to the issue of liquid vapour only at 100°c. It's simply not the case.

You of course are free to agree or disagree with whomsoever you choose.

I'll just correct you on 2 things . It's an 'engineer' not 'engineers' that I find pompous. Whether or not he is correct on a particular subject bears no relation to his pomposity although there is probably an inverse curve in there somewhere. The other is that my original post only contained rhetorical questions :)

Oh and I've happily let it go a number of times, then someone else bloody brings it back up!

[Mr Gazza]

Thanks to everyone contributing on this subject...Didn't think it would be taken up like this, nor become so emotional for some...Or should I say passionate?

I understand the methodolgy that makes a test or data gathering truely scientific Darren, but I'm afraid I don't have the time or atitude to take it that far...Maybe in another life.

Well done for getting hold of your Hyper' lines Utopia. The cooler with the sensor sounds interesting too....Gawd knows how you connect it to a display? Maplin have LCD displays, but you would have to know what gizmos to put on the board to make it work.

Another nice evening, and I managed to get 30 miles after work, before the Sun went below the horizon.
Took some quick snaps with the sun gone, and turned for home.
http://i61.tinypic.com/w0ot37.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/icrb7k.jpg

Being rather un-scientific, I would say it was a pleasant enough evening. Dry and about 18C, dropping a couple of degrees about half way home.
Bearing in mind that my ordinary car will read 70C (That's water of course) after going 1.5 miles down my lane in almost any condition.....The bike had got to just over 20C at that point. a further 12 miles saw it creep to 50C. The next 8 miles were a little more spirited, on a favorite bendy section. Speeds were a little lower but throttle was more on and off, with a few more revs held, and generally lower gears.....It rose to 60C....That's after 20 miles!
It stayed at 60C for the rest of the ride. When I stopped the heat migrated through the engine and read nearly 80C, but dropped very quickly back to 60C when I set off again.

It held a steady 60C all the way home even with the air temp' dropping quite noticably.

Not sure quite how scientific you want it, but I would say that's a pretty abysmal warm up time and low running temp'.

[utopia]

That's scientific enough for me to draw similar conclusions.
I'd still like more info before cutting my nice new oil lines though ..or for that matter, before changing anything on the bike without being certain that it can't make anything any worse.
Some temp results from a run with the cooler taped off, to simulate the effects of a bypass to some extent, would be nice.

To be honest though, I would happily fit a bypass unit with a low "blow off" temp, say in the 60 C range, on current information.
To date though, I've only found units which operate as low as 70 C.
In the light of further data, this may prove to be the ideal temp, but I'm cautious at this stage.
Here's a 70 C unit that I came across this evening ......

https://www.earls.co.uk/earls/coolers/components/thermostats.html

I'll phone them in the morning to get more info, sizes etc. (though subsequent googling has suggested that its too big to make sense on a bike).
One point of note though is that it looks like you can dismantle this unit (actually, that will probably apply to a fair few of them).
The operating thermal device is likely to be a std unit from a specialist supplier (??) and I'm wondering whether it would be possible to obtain lower temp devices to substitute, thus giving a lower operating temp ...should that prove necessary.

I have determined to my satisfaction that Harley bypass units operate at 180F/82C.
See this link ....
http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/twin-cam-engine-mods/36007-oil-cooler-thermostat-opening-temp.html
The Harley units are nice and small too ....
http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u644/photopia132/1303821226326_DSCN52071_zpst4nxkdby.jpg (http://s1326.photobucket.com/user/photopia132/media/1303821226326_DSCN52071_zpst4nxkdby.jpg.html)
....but the design looks very simple, also difficult or impossible to dismantle to change its operating temp, and probably a basic, high pressure drop design.

At this stage I think I can say that I'm pretty comfortable with the notion of fitting a 70C operating temp bypass unit, particularly if there's scope to reduce the temp to 60C.
And there is now a particular unit that I have in mind.
But I'll hold fire for more info.

[Mr Gazza]

Forgot to mention that on last night's ride @ 60C there was no fog in the window. So without the temp' gauge i would not have suspected any over-cooling.
However a couple of days back I had a mere 3 mile ride into town for a show without exceeding 20C and the window was foggy upon my return.
Incidently, I met Dacs who has a 2002 M750 complete with oil temperature read out as standard. He reported 80C being a fairly average figure to see, but that the gauge did not even read until it was into the 70s, so I can't report on his warm up times.
I am guessing that the sensor is in the oil strainer?

We are thinking along the same lines Utopia.
The Earls 'stat looks interesting, but not too much info for it.
I have discovered that Improved Racing have a 73C 'stat in their range. I like thier 'stats because of the "trickle" to the cooler when the valve is closed, stopping the oil in the cooler becoming too cold when not circulating. and also making it easier for air to bleed out when the valve is closed...Which when you think about it will be when the engine is cold on the first start after an oil change.

They say this much better than I could...

"High performance vehicles require large oil coolers to ensure the oil does not become overheated during strenuous use. These coolers also introduce the danger of over-cooling the oil and delaying engine warm-up, resulting in horsepower loss, excessive engine wear and reduced gas mileage. Oil thermostats perform the critical function of bypassing the oil cooler until the oil has reached its minimum operating temperature. "

I have studied the oil circulation diagram in my manual, and have noticed that the oil flows from the pump to the cooler and then the filter before going to the mains and cylinder heads.
This means (I think...Correct me if I'm wrong) that the oil temp' I am seeing is sump temp'. and that the oil reaching the working parts will be much colder, having passed through the cooler....This makes my over-cooling fears a bit worse, but also makes me wonder if the engine really does need a supply of very cool oil....Kind of turned some of my thoughts on thermostats on thier head, considering where the 'stat would be fitted....???

[DrD]

I just reread some of this (in particular #79 to #81). Here is a contrary thought. Given the oil circulation, once warm the thermostat option would then mean "cold" oil would be flowing to the mains (once the oil cooler comes into operation) before the full circuit is used. I am not enough of an engineer to understand if this temperature differential causes any problems.
Anyway I am in the the gaffer tape on the rad camp for use on cold days - rare now as I have other bikes for those type of days.

[Mr Gazza]

DrD, That's what Improved Racing refer to as "Cold Shock".

They address it by not completly shutting off the cooler in the closed mode. The 'Stat lets past 10% of the oil into the cooler, so maintaining a small flow...This is what I was alluding to when I mentioned the "trickle" which should also help bleed air...Hence why I am prefering thier 'stat at the moment.

[utopia]

........ the oil reaching the working parts will be much colder, having passed through the cooler....This makes my over-cooling fears a bit worse, but also makes me wonder if the engine really does need a supply of very cool oil....Kind of turned some of my thoughts on thermostats on thier head, considering where the 'stat would be fitted....???

Ooooh, there's a little teaser which had my brain in knots for a while. :dizzy:
Does the whole lubrication system rely on unexpectedly cold oil ?
Well, once you ask yourself the question, it demands an answer, you can't just ignore it, despite it seeming to be bizarre.
But no, I think its ok, that is, I think it is bizarre.
Otherwise, my 750 would have seized solid in English summer, stop-start traffic, and certainly in Italian.
And every oil-cooler-less 600 would have done so before spring was out.

I think that its probably important to consider as a priority that the engine will be happiest once it has fully soaked itself up to its preferred operating temp (range) throughout its entire mass.
It therefore seems to me that at the very least in principle alone, the value of a thermostat bypass on the cooler is self evident.
Paraphrasing "Zen and the Art of.." maybe that's the qualitative statement, and now we just need the quantitative bit.
I can see two parts to that...
1) How big is the effect of "overcooling" the oil and slowing the warm-up ? Is this a load of fuss about nothing ? I'll never know the definitive answer but I love my monster and the signs point towards a potential improvement, either big or small ...I'm interested in either, to a point.
2) What temp should the bypass operate at ? This seems to me to be the only real issue. Note in particular that if the bypass temp is low enough, the system can do no possible harm, it seems to me. Once its opened, its as if it wasn't there at all (as long as its a low pressure drop unit). And as long as its failsafe ....and my chosen unit is.
But rather than play safe and peg the bypass temp low for safety, I'd prefer to tailor the bypass temp to maximise the benefit, without approaching negative effects by overheating the oil, for example.

By now I'm sufficiently intrigued by this whole question that its worth a few quid just to get some answers.
And so ....and not that I'm necessarily going to actually fit it without further testing beforehand ....I've bought a bypass unit. :eek:
Ok, I know, its a bit "previous" but it popped out and bewitched me into spontaneity.......this one.....

http://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic-transmission/1695361-high-flow-160f-transmission-thermostat.html

My reasons for liking it are..
1) Its failsafe.
2) Its low pressure drop.
3) It has a low, 72C operating temp.
4) Its looks easy to dismantle and the thermo unit looks std, so tailoring the temp may be possible.
5) It trickle-feeds the cooler when the bypass is operating.
6) Its the smallest unit that I've seen. ..in fact I believe it has been superceded by a larger unit now, so these may be rare ?
7) It looks neat too, and is well finished.
8) I made a cheeky.ish offer and got a result.

My only doubt will be erased when the eastern European vendor actually sends the goods.
Oh well, life's a journey.

contd..

[utopia]

On the subject of oil temp. measurements, from a glance at the lube layout it looks like...
1) A sensor in the strainer (? re. Dacs' bike) would pretty much measure sump temp, I guess. I wonder how easy it would be to graft one onto my (carby) 750 ?
2) The filler cap gauge might measure after the pump, which would heat the oil a tad. (I haven't fully checked this)
3) A sensor at the cooler outlet would be right handy for comparison.....and I hope to be able to arrange that via my Hyper bits.
4) I think perhaps Ursa has a 695 with a temp gauge somewhere, and it aint testing water. I wonder where that is. Maybe the same as on Dacs' bike ?

Anyway, its looks like we should have some kit to enable us to run with this question for a bit longer and, who knows, maybe even learn something useful.
I reckon its got to be worth the cost of the bypass unit, even if only for forum interest value.

[slob]

(1 & 4) Later ie models take the reading on the dash from the cap on the pre-filter screen (the ECU uses the the one on the front inlet rocker cover) You'll have fun calibrating your own ;-)
(2) Surprised if you'd notice any difference there.
(3) Interesting but complicated

...

http://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic-transmission/1695361-high-flow-160f-transmission-thermostat.html

...

see the link I posted on #11 (http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showpost.php?p=516396&postcount=11), and go to #15 (http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showpost.php?p=453171&postcount=15) on that thread, Lars found that the 'car' sized galleries/valve didn't operate as expected on a motorcycle engine

... and good luck!

[utopia]

Yes, I am expecting it to be less than straightforward to obtain calibrated readouts from the temp sensors if I install them on my carby bike.
But we'll give it a go.
It would be very handy to have two readouts, one from the strainer cup and one from the cooler exit fitting, particularly if that can be via using std, bolt on parts rather than drilling into anything to install sensors.
If anyone has any pics of the strainer cup sensor arrangement, I'd be interested.

I didn't spot Lars' reports of malfunction with his perma-cool bypass.
That does rather highlight the hazards of unforeseen problems and emphasises the need for adequate testing.
But that unit has a different design to the one I've bought.
In the unit I have it looks as if, once the valve has fully closed on the bypass loop, there can be no flow at all, other than through the cooler.
Of course, that doesn't address what happens when the valve is only partially closed but I reckon that shouldn't be an issue if the operating temp of the bypass unit is set sufficiently low. I believe that the unit Lars tried had an operating temp of 82 C. Maybe that was the problem ?
Maybe the 72 C operating temp of my unit will avoid this issue ?
And maybe this temp can be altered anyway, if necessary.

Anyway, in for a penny......
We'll see what we will see.

[Darren69]

According to the blurb Ducati puts in the Performance catalogue the Oil Cooler increases heat dissipation by 15%. I realise that's probably not that helpful in actual temperature decrease terms. But you maybe able to calculate a theoretical value based on that?

[Aviatore]

DrD, That's what Improved Racing refer to as "Cold Shock".

From the look of all the valves and specifically the cutaway in the links that were posted they're mechanical devices most likely using a bi-metalic strip or similar mechanism to open and close. This would make them analog in function with them starting to close the bypass at temperatures below the posted rating and being fully closed at or above that rating. I don't think cold shock should be as big a concern because of this. That and the fact that the oil cooler path is never really cut off. The bypass simply lets warm oil follow a path of least resistance back to the engine. It will still mix some warm and cold oil through the oil cooler.

Given that they've got thermostat ratings near the normal operating temperatures seen it seems like a good solution.

[slob]

...If anyone has any pics of the strainer cup sensor arrangement, I'd be interested...


http://www.thelasturl.net/m1000/level.jpg

[utopia]

I think you're right Darren, 15% sounds more like a ballpark/descriptive figure than hard data.
But all info is good info and adds to the overall picture.

Thanks for the pic, Rob.
That's pretty much what I was expecting and looks like it could well be an easy graft onto my bike using the strainer housing off an ie bike.
Not too untidy either ...it probably won't remain fitted long term though, just for testing.

[Dukedesmo]

http://www.thelasturl.net/m1000/level.jpg

Similarly, an aftermarket version that I fitted to the pickup filter bolt;

http://ducatiforum.co.uk/data/photos/l/6/6105-1443802700-a2381c7daf3cf084894b49ffa8e2af16.jpg

[Mr Monty]

I think 95 on carby 900ss's had oil temp gauges in the instrument binnacle, the sensor was in the course filter end cap as in Slob's photo. The gauge was calibrated from 50C to 150C, and when warmed up (probably at least 20 miles) they ran at around 100 Deg C, maybe 110/115 in stationary traffic after a good run but soon stabilised at around 100 Deg C again when out of a built up areas. The gauge calibration was not linear, there being four equi-spaced markings at 50 Deg, 80 Deg, 100 Deg and 150 Deg C, so the needle was just to the right of centre most of the time.

The bikes handbook did not mention the gauge in the text, although contained an illustration of it (?). The workshop manual doesn't mention what 'normal' operating temps either.

The bikes had an oil cooler mounted below the horizontal cylinder, but also had a full fairing which would change airflow through the cooler and around the engine when compared to a Monster.

The above was from a sample size of 2 bikes, and readings were consistent between both bikes (for clarity - one red, one yellow....).

Not sure where you would be able to mount a 900s oil temp gauge on a monster though.

Mr Monty.

[Mr Gazza]

I'm going to feel terrible now if your new Thermostat doesn't do the trick Utopia..:eek:

I am still torn. There is a lot of "evidence" to indicate that my 900 is running too cool and taking too long to warm up.
But on the other hand there is nothing unusual about my bike, and I used to commute 10 miles on my last (Carbie) M900 into late Autumn, at least until the salt went down. I wasn't aware of mucking the engine up because it was over-cooled. If what we now think is true, then I would have never have got to running temp'.....and it would follow that quite a lot of 900 engines have spent their lives below the optimum operating temperature in the UK....And yet these are engines which have a reputation for racking up very respectable milages.

DukeDesmo reported that the strainer cap sensor gives simillar readings to the filler cap gauge, so I am assuming that my own readings can be compared to other engines with strainer sensors.
If that is the case then the very long warm up times seem to be common..20 miles is far too long...especially if you only have a 10 mile commute!

My indicated 60C running temp' seems very low if the gauge is to be believed.. I will conduct some calibrations at the weekend with some water in a pan and a thermometer.

Although quite different from the 100C reported on the SS, I think I could live with 60C if that's what my bike settles at, but I can't accept a 20 mile warm up.
I'm not convinced that masking the cooler with tape is the right thing, but I am not saying that I won't try it whilst keeping a close eye on the gauge...It's definately not a permanent solution.

Looking forward to seeing how your 'stat performs Jeff....Wish I were braver.!

[utopia]

Similarly, an aftermarket version that I fitted to the pickup filter bolt;


An aftermarket version, you say ?
Does that mean there is also aftermarket kit to display the readout ?
Though I'm guessing that yours displays through your electronic dash ?
Do you have a link for the sensor/strainer part, or a manufacturer's name ?

Hey, Mr Monty. Long time no see.
And that's interesting info.
I haven't digested it yet, but thanks.

Gazza, don't worry mate.
I was a sitting duck anyway.
And tbh, this whole question has been in the back of my mind for years. Since not long after getting the monster actually, which was my first bike with an oil cooler.
It will be worth the cost of the bypass unit just to get to the bottom of the issue, even if the conclusion is that it doesn't work, or is relatively pointless ...though that isn't my expectation at this stage.

In fact, just at the moment, the simplicity issue is probably what troubles me most.
There's a lot of truth in Max's comment along the lines of ..what isn't there, doesn't break and weighs nothing.
I'm a huge believer that simplicity is best if it does the job adequately.
The only question lies in one's interpretation of "adequately", and an extra slow warm-up time doesn't score highly in that regard.
And the notion that I'm carrying around an oil cooler which may (regularly, even) under certain conditions be doing more harm than good, somehow detracts from the purity of design that I attribute in general (and with delight) to the monster. You know .. kinda spoils it.

A question .. Does anyone know the thread size for the temp sensor fitted in the strainer bolt ?
The reason I ask is that I'm wondering whether its compatible with the sensor thread on these oil temp gauges (M10, dunno the pitch) ....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KOSO-Slimline-Oil-Water-Thermometer-LED-Display-Temperature-Gauge-Blue-Light-M10-/400786192505?hash=item5d50b7f879

I like them because of the flat design, and also the dimensions which are almost exactly the same as the lids on my coffin master cyls.
I'm thinking, a bit of decent sticky pad on my old, oem covers and job's done.
And using the supplied sensor, if it fits, will avoid calibration issues.
A digital readout would simplify reading them while riding too.
One on each master, reading oil strainer temp and cooler exit temp is the plan so far.
Ok, maybe there's higher tech which would log data and plot graphs. I may end up going that route but I'm not really sure that its necessary. And anyway, what would you plot the readings against .. time ? mileage ? accumulated engine revs with a wind speed chaser ??
Maybe some basic data and a seat of the pants interpretation is as good as it gets ?
I'm open to persuasion either way.

Anyway, the eastern European gentleman has apparently now posted my bypass.

[pompone]

The above was from a sample size of 2 bikes, and readings were consistent between both bikes (for clarity - one red, one yellow)

Mr Monty.

:chuckle: :chuckle:

[Mr Gazza]

Sadly not been able to get in the saddle since last weekend.
I did do some tests on the temp guage though.
I put it, and a bulb thermometer in a pan of old oil, and warmed it up.

The bulb thermometer reacted quicker than the guage at first, but they soon levelled up.
I could only go to 50C as that is the limit of my thermometer, but the two instruments were no more than 2 degrees apart at any time.......Kind of hoped that the guage would be 20 degrees behind....So that's it. My Monster is uber cool!

Interesting thing when I was cleaning the oil off the thermometer....
...Now I know that an evaporating fluid will rob it's surroundings of heat to change state.

When i sprayed clutch and brake cleaner on to rinse the oil off it shot down from 10C to a remarkable 0C....wasn't expecting that!

[Dukedesmo]

An aftermarket version, you say ?
Does that mean there is also aftermarket kit to display the readout ?
Though I'm guessing that yours displays through your electronic dash ?
Do you have a link for the sensor/strainer part, or a manufacturer's name ?



The sensor is part of the Translogic dash setup, you can buy the sensor from Translogic as a spare part (I fitted a second to the 916 so that I can read both water and oil temp) but I don't know where you can get a suitable gauge other than the dash?

As for fitting, I drilled the oil pickup cap and put a 6mm bolt through it.

[slob]

also the drop in pressure from the spray nozzle has a cooling effect

[utopia]

As for fitting, I drilled the oil pickup cap and put a 6mm bolt through it.

Ah, so you've fitted the sensor to the std strainer bolt.
I was thinking it was perhaps a complete replacement strainer, with sensor already fitted.
I guess it can't be that hard to arrange something similar on my bike then.

I also notice what looks like a temp sensor on your oil cooler.
And what with needing a readout device of some sort ..and perhaps fancying a new, simpler looking dash ..I'm wondering about shelling out for a similar system to your translogic now.
And there's always the potential for a g.p.i. to consider too. :rolleyes:

[Dukedesmo]

I also notice what looks like a temp sensor on your oil cooler.


That's the pressure sender, the cooler has a place for it and as I have an oil feed in the normal place it made for a neater installation.




And there's always the potential for a g.p.i. to consider too. :rolleyes:

Well, the Translogic does have a GPI... :look:

[Mr Gazza]

Drumnagorrach and I have been discussing this oil temp issue privately at length, and Drum' has shown me his beautifully made ally shroud for his oil cooler.

In Scotland he is experiencing a lot of over cooling, and claims that blanking off the cooler all of the time brings running temps to a more acceptable norm, and has only risen over the hundred mark once, in a 10 minute road works crawl.

Being a resourceful and inventive sort of chap, he has developed this idea into a more flexible and easily removable version made from glass cloth, stitched together by Mrs Drum'.

I am flattered and grateful to him for making a spare and sending it to me free for evaluation.

Here it is on my bike.
http://i66.tinypic.com/2s9dhsg.jpg

The genius of it is that it velcros together at the back, so is very easy to put on, and can be taken off with one gloved hand and stuffed in a pocket.

I am not convinced about gaffa taping my cooler, but the "Drumnagorrach muff" might be the way forward? It will effectively do the same thing as a 'Stat by shortening the warm up time, but with no mods to the bike....I'm not big on the idea of having to monitor the temperature and then stop to remove the muff, but maybe it can stay on, as Drum' has found.....Looking forward to trying it out...:D...Thank you.

Utopia....How are you getting on with your new thermostat?....Do you know what the thread sizes are in the ports?

[utopia]

That looks like an excellent, sensible way to achieve the desired result with minimal changes to the bike.
I'm impressed with the ingenuity ...makes blanking the cooler a simple thing rather than endless hassle fitting/removing gaffer tape.
I would still prefer an engineered solution which doesn't require any fiddling about and works automatically under all conditions but the "Drum muff" gets 90% of the effect with virtually zero mods or expense.
Its a good way to mimic a bypass unit for test purposes too.

My thermostat/bypass arrived, but its not quite what I was hoping for... its rather larger than I was expecting at 90x53x38mm and weighs about 400g.
That might be a little too big and heavy to be a permanent fitment on the bike ..I haven't quite decided yet. I may investigate the slightly smaller, Harley unit too.
Another option might be to see if I can make my own smaller unit to the same general design as the Improved Racing one, using the same std thermal switch/device.
In the meantime though, it will work fine as it is for test purposes.
With winter drawing in, its gonna be next year before I get to do any serious testing.
The ports in it look to be about 22mm dia (which looks to be bigger than necessary).

I also have my new Hyper cooler, complete with temp sensor in one of the ports.
And the Hyper lines too.
I'll post some pics in due course.

[Mr Gazza]

400grams isn't so bad is it? Considering that you have saved over 5 kilos with the battery.

As you say, the ports seem rather large, probably 7/8" as it's American?
Hopefully it's metric though.
I'm sure you could make something much neater and lighter from a block of Ti with 14x1.5mm threads to match Ducati nipples.

Looking forward to seeing the new lines and cooler on.

I had a joyous 100 mile ride today in unseasonal 16C weather.
The "Drumnagorrach muff" did shorten the warm up time. I reckon it was up to 60C after just over 5 miles.
I expected it to keep on getting hotter with the muff still on, but it settled at 60C for a further 15 or so miles.
I was forced to stop and watch a Red Kite, hedge soaring right in front of me for a good 2 minutes (probably more). In neutral with the engine still running, I glanced from the magnificent bird to the temp gauge every few seconds, and it crept up to 80C.
It settled back down to 70C, on the move after a few miles, where as without the muff it would have soon returned to 60C.
After a cuppa and chat stop, It was up to temp in no time, with the roads drying as I went, I was able to have the best go at the Coast road in many a Moon, with very few cars in the way.
Temps seemed to hold around the 75C mark, giving it some beans between the speed limit bits.....An unexpededly good ride for mid-November..:D

I'm very pleased with that...The muff stayed in place all the time..No overheating, and temps much nearer what I would expect. The muff has the added advantage of keeping the mud out of the cooler fins too.

I really think the "Drumnagorrach Muff" is a winner....Get ready for a rush of orders Drum'....:chuckle:

[Drumnagorrach]

That's working better on you 900 than on my 1000, it takes 8 miles for me to get up to 50 when the low oil temp "nag " goes off.
But then 16deg f**k me! I would be happy with that in June.

[Mr Gazza]

But then 16deg f**k me! I would be happy with that in June.

Yup...and the Sun even came out for little while...:D...But the best bit was that all the muppets stayed at home..

I'm lapping it up....I wanted to go another 100 miles, but I had a job to do at home...Which I ended up doing in the dark anyway!

I was suprised that the oil didn't get warmer, with the cooler completely blanked off.
I got to thinking that maybe the oil lines are cooling the oil too.
I have slightly longer pipes than normal, having done the Hypermotard conversion. So maybe there is extra cooling effect there?
Not sure if that is having much effect or not, but I wonder if it would help, in lower temperatures, to actually lag the oil pipes?

You are riding in much colder air than I am. I wonder if the whole cooling system...Lines and all...Should not only be blanked, but insulated as well.
It's not going to be all that pretty, and the lagging to the pipes would not be roadside removeable, but the velcro muff part would still be QD if it suddenly got too warm.

I might look into lagging my pipes if I manage to keep riding into the harsher months, but I draw the line when the salt goes down.!