Is my fuel tank swelling

[Drumnagorrach]

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff171/gasaxephoto/IMG_0520.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/gasaxephoto/media/IMG_0520.jpg.html)I have read a few posts about the plastic tanks swelling,my newly acquired S2R has one such tank ,and it dont seem to fit ,see photos.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff171/gasaxephoto/IMG_0517.jpg (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/gasaxephoto/media/IMG_0517.jpg.html)
Maybe it never fit right,or is it growing it certainly seems to be too wide and long. It is jammed up to the switch cover and the rear bracket is as far back as it will go.

[Funkatronic]

yep its swollen

[Darren69]

Yes It looks like it is swelling. You can back it off at the hinge bracket to pull it back and I think there are hinge brackets available that allow even more backward movement. Ducati were recalling and replacing tanks due to this issue so maybe check if they can replace. The steel ones rust from the inside and the plastic ones swell, rock and a hard place :(

[damien666]

Or........
http://i60.tinypic.com/oizxpi.jpg

😎

[utopia]

Oh, come on now !
You can't just post a pic of such a tank and say nothing. :cry:
Where... how... when... who ...and crucially, how much ?
I'll be needing one someday.
Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon and for the rest ..........:mand:

[damien666]

Mmmmm........

http://i59.tinypic.com/21jsv2x.jpg

😍

[Bonzo]

Or........
http://i60.tinypic.com/oizxpi.jpg

��

Gorgeous :hail:

[slob]

no longer shipping according to their website :-( unless someone knows different

[Darren69]

It looks like Moto Works wont supply but you can order direct from Beater.jp site by the looks.

http://beater.jp/

[Darren69]

Oh there is an english page

http://beater-japan.com/

The injection one works out at £960

[damien666]

I started a new thread on this....in 'fuels and oils' section

[DrD]

Maybe these guys: http://www.thetankshop.com/
Probably work out same price or cheaper but comes in polished alloy

[Funkatronic]

or carbon? (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/serbatoio-f-carbonio-strada-Ducati-Monster-1000-S4-900-/111320962816?hash=item19eb3f1700)

[Gedders]

Bummer, recently got my 620 and spotted the same problem almost right away and couldn't figure it out. Saw a similar post the other day and thought 'No never' but of course now it makes sense,.... Poooo :( And it looks like the hinge bracket is a s far back as it will go.

[Dave G]

I haven't noticed if my S2R tank has been affected by this, though quite frankly it's an issue that Ducati have tried their best to ignore and one that would stop me from buying any bike with a plastic tank again.

However, that said, when my SC was MOT'd this year the tester noted that the bars came back a bit far and almost trapped the thumb against the tank, we thought this may just be the adjuster had moved or something like that but now I'm realising that this tank is beginning to swell.
Bit of a bummer that as I use premium fuel most of the time.

One of the 'fixes' the US guys have been trying is to empty the tank and leave it dry for a while,this usually results in it shrinking back a bit, sometimes to it's original dimensions, I think thats on the cards for me over the winter months.

Not the best solution but worth a try if your bike is off the road for any length of time.

[jerry]

I have fixed temperarily 2 plastic tank ducatis for friends by draining and leaving to dry out for 3 months ,, it works but gasohol fuels will always end up swelling Plastic tanks its the water seperating from gasohol getting into the nylon of PA6..

drying a tank out and lining it with epoxy, caswell or POR15 etc is also a supposed fix.

[Mr Gazza]

I figured that it was the water element of the fuel doing the damage.

From what you say Jerry, It sounds like it could be an osmosis type proccess going on, perhaps with a bit of chemical/solvent assistance?

When GRP hulls get osmosis the treatment is to strip the gel coat and thoroughly dry the laminate with infra red lamps.
That's clearly not going to work with a plastic tank and although I think there may be similarities....This is not quite the same problem.

A little gentle heat sounds like a good idea..Perhaps not even as much as radiator, but over a long period and with as much ventilation as posiible. ie with the cap open and all the tubes detatched.

Another idea that springs to mind is to make a cotton "sock", filled with Silica Gel, that will fit into the filler. It would need a lanyard or something, so it could be pulled out.

Seems that a plastic tanked bike needs a special winter lay up regieme?

[Darren69]

I would consider removing the fuel pump because they don't like being left 'dry' for extended periods as the rubber drys out.

[jerry]

Ducati, Guzzi , KTM etc should never have let Acerbis who actually make the tanks use PA6 plastic , for motorcyle tanks ,, its fine in cars and trucks as the fuel tank is not seen ,, They should have used PEX but enviromentalists regulations in USA prevented that and other plastics were Too expensive ,, thats why Ducati have returned to Steel tanks on all recent models ,,,,,,as have Triumph and HD ,, but Guzzi, BMW and KTM still using plastic PA6.... beware ,,,

[Darren69]

Surely mass produced aluminium tanks would only be a bit more expensive than steel tanks and would solve both issues? No anti-rust treatment required.

[Mr Gazza]

.............and Vincent used Stainless Steel.

[Darren69]

Thats probably even better! I mean you can get cook ware made from stainless or ally and you have to pay a bit more but honestly I think its worth it. I mean a 40 week turn around on orders for a handmade tank isn't really feasable, or is it expected to be? What happens if you damage it?

[damien666]

Thats probably even better! I mean you can get cook ware made from stainless or ally and you have to pay a bit more but honestly I think its worth it. I mean a 40 week turn around on orders for a handmade tank isn't really feasable, or is it expected to be? What happens if you damage it?

You get a PDR ( paintless dent removal) guy, with special rods to tease the dent out? (If it's not mullered!)

[Drumnagorrach]

Well if my bike is nine years old ,and the tank is still usable, how long before it grows too big ?
What is the final result ? does it go wobbly ?
Incidentally , when I got my bike ,two weeks ago, checking it out ,I noticed the top yoke hit the tank on left lock ,I thought it was the stops set unevenly ,they were a bit,but I guess it was swelling.
Has anyone got Ducati to replace a tank ?

[squarehead]

I did get a replacement tank from Ducati. PM me your e mail and I'll fill you in on the detail.

Simon

[jerry]

In the USA it is mandatory for Ducati to change tank for a new one if bike is less than 6 years old ,,,this was due to a Class action court case ,,after ducati had changed over 25,000 faulty tanks ,,,,

However Ducati weaseled out of changing the tank material and the replacements are still only PA6 so no cure ,, some people on USA sites have had up to 4 replacements due to local fuel being 10% ethanol (UK is only 5% at he moment) and after 6 years they dont have to replace any more so a lot of bike in USA will need new tanks at owners expense , or aftermarket will supply steel or Carbon fibre tanks .

[Dave G]

Well my bikes are now 10 and 8 years old respectively, both bought from new, so I doubt whether Ducati will even acknowledge they have a problem in this country with these bikes.
I've known about this issue for many years, I even raised it with my local dealer who had never even heard of it when I asked.

It has left a bad taste about buying Ducatis in the future I have to admit, more to do with how they reacted after the problem was unearthed rather than the tank problem itself.

If, say they had offered to coat the tanks in Caswell solution( an anti ethanol coating) or something along those lines then surely the costs would have been less than any replacement tanks and the PR value would have been better than the 'stick your head in the sand' they seem to favour at the moment.

Of course the other factor is, both my bikes were not especially common so the affected number of users(who find any problems) will be miniscule and easily ignored.

[Bufort]

hey, I just spoke to someone today and he said that if you use BP fuel (and that's all he uses), plastic tanks will be ok. And then he tried to show me the carbs but he couldnt get it opened -probably because the tank had expanded.

Is this the case, or is it all fuels now which do this?

[dacs]

I emailed BP in September to ask what the ethanol content was in their Ultimate unleaded - this is lifted from their reply - "As a consequence, the inclusion of bioethanol in our BP Ultimate Unleaded supply chain is an evolving situation and we are therefore unable to give you categorical assurances as to its absence or presence. However we can assure you that – as required by the The Motor Fuel (Composition and Content) (Amendment) Regulations 2013 – the content of bioethanol in our BP Ultimate Unleaded gasoline will never be more than 5% by volume until 1st January 2017 at the earliest."
So now we know - or, rather, we don't :banghead:

[Bufort]

What about the newer 2012 Monsters that also have plastic tanks? Has this been resolved? I'm umming and ahhing between an S2R and a 796...

[jerry]

Bufort the ethanol and plastic tanks situation has never been resolved , as all the tanks are made of same PA6 material,, either , use non ethanol fuekl or drain the tank over winter , or buy a model with a steel tank that means new one or before 2005 models .its not only Ducati affected , BMW, KTM, Guzzi, some HDs some Triumphs from 2005-2008

[Bufort]

i ride all year round, not just summer.

What is "non-ethanol" fuel? I thought the number of the fuel, eg. 95 or 97 was the octane, and the rest (5%, 3%) was the ethanol. Which means that all fuel in the UK has ethanol in it. Right?

[Dirty]

all fuel in the UK has ethanol in it. Right?

Maybe.....

[Dirty]

Are carbon fibre tanks adversely affected by ethanol does anyone know?

[Bufort]

Maybe.....

So does anybody know how to 'only use non-ethanol fuel'?

[Dirty]

So does anybody know how to 'only use non-ethanol fuel'?

Nope, even the fuel companies themselves are very obtuse on the matter and there is very little current info.

This was a good page in 2011!! http://www.groups.tr-register.co.uk/wessex/ethanol-update.html

[Bufort]

So I take it Jerry's solution was sarcastic then. Righto.

[Dave G]

I dont think Jerry is being sarcastic, his point is that there is no fix.

The fuel will continue to be diluted with ethanol as there is money to be made and that more important to our authorities than any other factor and Ducati dont give a toss what happens to their old models as they are all out of warranty so they can deny any reponsibility for anything.

My next bike wont be a Ducati. They have acknowledged the problem insofar as they stopped making plastic tanked bikes and have gone back to metal tanks hoping no one noticed why.

[Bufort]

Oh, It sounded like he was trying to give real, but unfeasible advice. Anyway, does anybody know when they started using steel tanks again?

[Dirty]

Yeah i think Jerry was giving real advice, and it's good advice. The problem is the gov and the fuel companies don't make it easy advice to follow.

In essence use 'super' fuel as it is more likely to have less ethanol. I use BP ultimate as that used to be ethanol free but apparently some areas now have ethanol in that as well. I have a steel tank anyway but ethanol can also affect the plastic within the fuel system, carbs etc so I prefer to do whatever I can to try to avoid it.

[Ursa]

After the issues I've had with Edna's tank, I was talking to a mate who has a KTM with the swollen tank issue too. He was saying there's an additive you can put in the tank to counteract the ethanol issue and will let me know once he's tried it how successful it is.

[DrD]

Maybe this: http://www.bellperformance.com/fuel-treatment/ethanol-defense

I use BP Ultimate - ethanol free around hee and stops my Aprilia tank swelling but I still levae it all but empty over winter.

[Drumnagorrach]

Don't worry too much about tank swelling Bufort. My recently bought S2R (2006) has a tank that is about 10 mm longer than when it was made,the tank was jammed against the ignition switch,and I had to take the rear mount off to get the tank off.
I made a rear mounting bracket 10 mm further back than original . I got to thinking ,10 mm in 9 years ,maybe this tank will out live me in it's usefulness.

[Albie]

Don't worry too much about tank swelling Bufort. My recently bought S2R (2006) has a tank that is about 10 mm longer than when it was made,the tank was jammed against the ignition switch,and I had to take the rear mount off to get the tank off.
I made a rear mounting bracket 10 mm further back than original . I got to thinking ,10 mm in 9 years ,maybe this tank will out live me in it's usefulness.

More miles per tank every year too. You may get 250 in 10 years time.:mand:

[Bufort]

I see. Thanks.

Which monsters models and years are plastic then?

[jerry]

Problem is Bufort that 90% of fuel in EU is at least 5% ethanol and some may be 10% , In USA 90% of fuel is 10% ethanol,,

i also ride in Thailand and 80% of fuel there is now 10% ethanol it means up to 10% less power and about 5% loss of economy as well as mucky injectors and my bike has a stell tank thank god ,, fortunately some fuel stations in Thailand have good old 95 octane benzine and i always try to top up with that and always when storing the bike the tank is either empty or full of pure benzine .

I have seen and worked on several swollen tanks in thailand and UK,,,, its a potential pain in the butt but can be managed ..probably casswells will help a clean tank and drying out over 3 months does seem to bring most tanks back to normal

[jerry]

model years affected were from 2005 - 2012 and even some recent bikes which dont have steel tanks yet ,,,,

[Drumnagorrach]

More miles per tank every year too. You may get 250 in 10 years time.:mand:

True, but I may not be able to reach the bars

[nambduke]

Remember, if you position the tank further towards the rear it affects the seat. My 04 M1000ie is affected and the Ducati 'bodge' is a revised rear tank mount and new tank rubbers. They wouldn't replace my tank!
Regards
Mark

[jerry]

was shown a M795 today that blew its painted over cover off its tank due to swelling from Thai Gasohol 95 E10,the owner recovered the busted cover from the road ,, shock of what happened could have been fatal ,,

[Nottsbiker]

Time to get a deal going with either the Indians out the Chinese to make some steel replicas)

[Dirty]

Someone bought an ally monster tank recently. Can't remember who or where from.

[Gerry]

I measured my new tank between two reference points along the top and compared it to the old tank.

Mine had grown 10mm along its length.

[damien666]

Someone bought an ally monster tank recently. Can't remember who or where from.

Yeah i got one from 'beater' in japan.
Still can't decide what colour/ design to paint it. Need to pull my finger out because i took my battery off for winter and the tank won't go back down past the ignition.
Ducati should have done the right thing and had ally or steel replacement tanks made and sold them at production cost to owners. It was the least they should have done.

[Gerry]

The thing is guys ..... the tank must stop growning ...there is a limit to how much water can be absorbed by the PA6 plastic.

My original tank had a defect as well as the swelling nonsense. There was a hole in the plastic around where the tube for the rear mounting is. This was some sort of impurity during molding. Basically there was a hole through the plastic ... and all theses years the only thing sealing this hole was the primer/topcoat. There was a small blister which broke and it started leaking fuel last year. I dried the tank and patched the hole from inside and outside using a special epoxy compatable with PA6 and Fuel.

When I stripped the tank this weekend I see the epoxy has been attacked by the Ethanol on the inside of the tank.

Another thing I have noticed is that the flange has distorted but only in the proximity of each mounting hole. I did notice that when I fitted the new revised fuel pump flange o ring .. which is fatter now and a different profile .... it did take a fair bit more torque to pull the fuel pump down onto the flange. Something I will need to look into before using the new tank.

I'm fed up with this .... Ducatis are not very well made ... lets be honest..

[jerry]

GERRY correction modern ducatis post 2005 are not well made methinks but they do perform well,until they fall apart

[Dave G]

http://www.cycleworld.com/real-world-look-at-alcohol-in-your-tank

Heres an interesting article on e10 problems, not just us with the plastic tanks then.