Speeding

[ChrisC2925]

Having whiled away a morning on a speed awareness course I wondered what people thought of the suggestion that some Police Forces are going to get rid of the discretionary allowance for going over the limit in favour of a zero tolerance approach meaning 31 in a 30 is an automatic ticket?

As far as I am concerned I spend enough time glancing at the speedo between looking out for pot holes and trying to keep an eye on bike blind drivers (and before anyone says I obviously don't as I've been nabbed, in my defence where I was clocked the limit had been reduced in the year since I'd last travelled down the road)!

[chris.p]

I don't see how they are going to get a court conviction as you would have to have a calibrated speedo in your car, bike etc, that compensated for tyre wear etc.

[garry]

would this "thought" have come from the actual people who run these courses ??

[DrD]

This is due in Scotland I think

[MR21]

I think they'd struggle because legally you're allowed 10% error, and the ACPO guidelines on speeding say it has to be 10% + 2 mph before a fixed penalty can be issued, and police forces must all conform. They also have to allow for operator error. Personally, if I was stopped for being 1 mph over I'd fight it every inch of the way bearing in mind the current law regarding speedo error margins (my bike speedo reads 2mph over and my car 3 to exonerate them legally).

[Saint aka ML]

They can introduce it and it would stick precisely because of what MR21 mentioned. Speedometers in all sold vehicles have to overestimate the speed by law. Can not remember exactly by how much but I think 7-10%. That means at 30mph your speedo would show 2-3mph more. So at 31ticket zone it would show 33-34mph. That already is enough.
Saying that if you read the article they are concentrating on average speed cameras as those can be extremely accurate. Math does not lie.

[Dirty]

The speed limit is the speed limit. There would be no change to the law needed. At present the 10% + 2 thing is a guideline from ACPO. An officer can chose to ignore those guideline should he/she wish.

I believe Scotland is considering the zero tolerance policy, which is ok as I have no current plans to speed in Scotland. If any future Scottish travel plans surface I will take it into account, in the same way I do with N Wales.

[MR21]

Officers can't Ignore the guidelines as they are both being on operators. There are very strict controls for how speed traps are operated, for instance they have to be as a confirmation of the operator's suspicion the driver was speeding, so they can't just point them at random vehicles. It's also irrelevant what your speedo says, which is why if I was pulled over for 31 in a 30 I'd fight is because it's within the 10% margin of error. My father in law is a traffic cop and I know they always go by 10% + 2 because they have to.

[MR21]

Having said that, I always abide by the posted limit! ��

[MR21]

Sorry, I meant binding on operators. Blasted auto correct! It always changes my pants!

[MR21]

In fact just the other day I followed a police car at 30 through a 20 zone with no blues and twos on, I wonder what would happen if they tried to pull you over then!

And yeah Dirty, I'm with you in avoiding Scotland for the time being!

[Saint aka ML]

MR21 the guidelines become irrelevant if they change the law. So Scotland changes it, first off all you still have to get spotted.......

[Dirty]

Officers can't Ignore the guidelines as they are both being on operators. There are very strict controls for how speed traps are operated, for instance they have to be as a confirmation of the operator's suspicion the driver was speeding, so they can't just point them at random vehicles. It's also irrelevant what your speedo says, which is why if I was pulled over for 31 in a 30 I'd fight is because it's within the 10% margin of error. My father in law is a traffic cop and I know they always go by 10% + 2 because they have to.

They may always do it, because they have been told to by their bosses but it is not the law and they do not have to follow guidelines. An officer can nick you for 31 if he wants. Hell if he could prove it he could nick you for doing 30.000001!!! If you are doing 31 in a 30 and it is a proven fact, you are breaking the speed limit, end of. the only defence you might try would be 'De minimis'. Fighting it because it is in the '10% margin of error' wouldn't work because 1, it's not a 'margin of error', it is ACPO guidelines for when it is 'appropriate' to issue a ticket, it has nothing to do with error or accuracy, that is a separate issue and 2 If it can be proven as fact that you went over the limit you are guilty. You could argue that the equipment used was not accurate in some way. It's been done, and on occasion has been successful but it's dam expensive and more often than not fails as a defence. As you say checkpoints are carefully constructed. Pretty much when they get you they get you good.

ACPO guidelines (http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/road_traffic_offences_guidance_on_fixed_penalty_no tices/)

Speed Enforcement

The Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) has issued speed enforcement policy guidance, which suggests that enforcement will normally occur when a driver exceeds the speed limit by a particular margin. This is normally 10 per cent over the speed limit plus 2 mph. It also sets guidelines for when it would not be appropriate to issue a fixed penalty notice but to issue a summons instead (see below). Note that these are guidelines and that a police officer has discretion to act outside of them providing he acts fairly, consistently and proportionately.

Speed limit: 20 mph
ACPO charging threshold: 24 mph
Summons: 35 mph

Speed limit: 30 mph
ACPO charging threshold: 35 mph
Summons: 50 mph

Speed limit: 40 mph
ACPO charging threshold: 46 mph
Summons: 66 mph

Speed limit: 50 mph
ACPO charging threshold: 57 mph
Summons: 76 mph

Speed limit: 60 mph
ACPO charging threshold: 68 mph
Summons: 86 mph

Speed limit: 70 mph
ACPO charging threshold: 79 mph
Summons: 96 mph

MR21 the guidelines become irrelevant if they change the law.

They don't need to change any law, just the way they apply it.

[MR21]

You're right it's the way they apply it, but there's a reason why they apply it that way. If they change to zero tolerance (I'll believe it when I see it) then I reckon we have 2 choices: 1. Don't speed.
2. Get a small plate and run for it!
3. Develop a fanatical devotion to the Pope.

3 choices. I'll come in again!

Lol

[popelli]

This is due in Scotland I think

Scotland also have lower drink drive limit as well

But their anti motorist policies do not work, they had a increase in road related deaths in the year after they lowered the drink drive limit

What is needed is better quality policing with police on the road and poor drivers ticketed and educated into better driving techniques

[don_matese]

Popelli - if you mean this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-33164471 then it has nothing to do with the lower drink driving limit in scotland.

The article with the higher number of road deaths is for 2014, compared to the road deaths in 2013. The drink drive limit was lowered on Dec 5th 2014 - so unlikely to be a contributing factor.

I think the average speed limit has been a bit tighter here for a while, certainly the one on the A77 down to stranraer seems to catch people all the time.

[Dukedesmo]

Scotland also have lower drink drive limit as well



Clearly Scotland is a crime free utopia? Or so it would seem with the motorist being public enemy no. 1...

[utopia]

I've seen plenty of drivers getting irate at other drivers who let their speed drop more than a couple of mph BELOW the speed limit.
This is particularly common in the lower speed limited zones.
I've even heard a senior police officer speak in derogatory terms about those who do this, on mainstream bbc radio, in very recent weeks.
So if there is to be "zero tolerance" what are we supposed to do ? .....walk the tightrope of extreme precision ?
How does that affect our concentration and awareness of other road conditions ?
Its complete bollox.
They are fascist imbeciles and they need a damn good slap to bring them to their senses.
The stupid, bigoted, small-minded, holier than thou, attitude of these people beggars belief.
They can stuff it, as far as I'm concerned.
I will be an outlaw, and proud.

If we really want to reduce speeds on the road, lets consider designing vehicles aimed at achieving this, rather than ever more powerful, peaky motors which encourage speed.
Oh, hang on though, that might affect sales of new vehicles.
And that would never do, would it ?

Me, I ride a 63bhp 750 and drive a diesel estate.
And I regularly break speed limits by small amounts, if conditions allow.

Here's an example ..
I was speed trapped at 42mph in a 30 zone on a main road in the centre of Leicester a couple of years ago.
Now this speed limit was set at 30 because it was presumably considered safe to travel at that speed in average conditions, that is to say sometime during the daytime when the road was busy with traffic and pedestrians.
My 42mph was at 3.15 in the morning in summertime on a dry, deserted, five-lane road.
Can those who set the laws or process the speed camera info not distinguish between these two scenarios, and the severity of the "offence" committed ?
Seemingly not, and when I argued my case they charged me an extra 60 quid for my trouble.

They are fools.
And worse ...they have power.
A dangerous combination.
I find that I have very little respect left for their stupid rules.

[Dirty]

I will be an outlaw, and proud.
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I find that I have very little respect left for their stupid rules.

Well said, I completely agree. There is a push, from sensible minds, to alter the speed limits to reflect time and conditions. Surveys and psych tests have shown that people would be more inclined to follow laws when they are seen as reasonable and sensible. The problem is those who eschew lower limits, ever increasing 'safety' and sterility. They seem to have a loud voice (remember the 'what about the children' cry from the Simpsons). More and more of Londons back streets are being turned into 20mph zones which most of us completely ignore. Ignore one rule and ignoring the 2nd is easier.

[MR21]

Yeah, there was some talk a while back about raising the speed limit on the motorway to 80, but they dropped that because the effective speed limit is 80 anyway, so they thought making it officially 80 would mean people would drive at 90. I agree that the limit should vary for conditions, they do on the "managed" stretches like the M25 anyway, so why not allow 100 when conditions allow? Sensible limits sensibly policed. These 20 zones are bull****.

[Dirty]

20 zones are stupid, and encourage people to ignore them. Some councils have been sensible though and have 20mph stretches around schools hospitals etc. The school ones are only active when the sign is lit and flashing. Makes perfect sense and 99% of drivers are happy to comply when this is the case.

[ChrisC2925]

The guys at the course seemed to think the potential zero tolerance may be down to Govt. pressure because for the first time in a number of years road fatalities have gone up. The other thing is the majority of convictions are not from being caught by police officers but from cameras which are far more accurate in recording the speed and don't have any common sense. My speed was 58 in a 50, which had been reduced recently from 60 due to an accident.