Static sag.?

[Mr Gazza]

To start off I want to say that my bike rides like an armchair and steers with precision. I couldn't really wish for more.

However when i took it to Carl Harrison for a valve shim a couple of months ago, he commented that there was a lot of static sag in the rear end....He said it should be in the region of 6mm.

So I took this on board respecting his knowledge. I have raised the static sag from 18mm to 6mm, and it does feel firmer to sit on, but she's not back together yet, so I haven't had a ride.

Now I realise I have done something very unscientific and interfered with little oversight into the bigger picture, and I want to go through all the sag settings in detail with some better knowledge.

i can only find very contradictory info and hearsay about static and loaded sag and nothing specific to a Monster.......Is there a bench mark? What settings do you use?

Any info greatly recieved...Cheers.

[Dirty]

I normally go for Sag Aloo but I might give Static Sag a try one day.

[Flip]

Hmmm unfortunately I suspect all you have really done in increase the preload which will mean although the static sag may be correct the dynamic (loaded) sag with you on board will probably not be.

The trouble with the standard Monster set up is a combination of budget suspension, too hard a spring rate, poor damping and chopper like geometry.

All of which can be sorted of course, just that some are cheaper and easier than others to fix.

[utopia]

It shouldn't actually feel any firmer as such, its just that with more preload it takes more load to begin to deflect the spring ...but once the initial preload has been overcome, the spring rate and hence the firmness, will be the same.
Which I imagine you're already familiar with anyway.
So the only major difference you should notice on the road is due to the change in geometry ie steeper steering angle due to rear being higher, so faster steering and less stability.
Again, which I fancy you already know.
Next I suppose the rear is more likely to top-out now, but tbh I'm not sure that I'd find that immediately obvious myself.
And there are always secondaries, like for example the c of g will now be ever so slightly higher.

I've messed with mine cautiously but quite extensively now.
For a start the Nitron rear shock is set up so that it gives either solo or pillion settings at each extreme of the hydraulic preload ...which involved much messing with static sag.
And then I've tweeked both front and rear ride heights for various reasons.

Two comments....
Its worth it, just for the learning experience.
Don't raise the front at all ....it'll have you in the hedge at the first fast bend.

[StevieL]

www.sportrider.com/Ask the Geek-set-your-static-sag it was mentioned not so long ago on the forumatb steve

[chris.p]

6mm is for track use, a road bike should be set to between 10-15mm.

If you go onto the Ohlins web site and search for suspension set up, all details given there.

[Mr Gazza]

That sounds like what i'm looking for Stevie...But I can't find it useing the link you posted.

All i can say is it's great shame we are not discussing this in front of a blazing fire whilst supping pints, my friends. Because I would likely dissagree loudly, with colourful language, whilst laughing at what you have said...and then get 'em in again so we could go on dissagreeing in a good natured way..:chuckle:

Yes Flip all I have done is mess with the preload, and I seek to do better.

What you say about Monster suspension and geometry sounds so wrong to one who comes from a long line of Brit twins. To me the Monster is from a race bred line (851 888) and also is a Sie with Ohlins at the back and fully adjustable Showas on the front possibly containing Ohlins cartriges, and about as far from a chopper as i could imagine. (I've ridden a few appalling ones)...I don't think there is any putting right to do, in fact I may well ignore Carl Harrisond comments and just revert to the original setting until I know better.

Utopia...Now how to deal with you my friend?? First have another of my virtual pints and then pin back you lug'oles......Be in the hedge at the first bend indeed.!!!

I have countless miles under my belt on OIF Triumphs and I seriously reccomend that you never set out on one..What is with people who don't know how to steer a motorbike?

You give the bars a bloody good yank otherwise you keep going staight and then you yank them again to get it back up.

After I removed the ride hieght extenders (and sent them to Dirty) The forks were still level with the yokes...that's about as extreme as the rake will go on a Monster....Felt like an old freind to me.:D

Now that;s not the way a Monster should be, so I lowered the yokes about 20mm I think it was and now enjoy much lighter steering that still responds to a little nudge every now and then..........Oh I've heard them say.." if it runs wide, quicken the steering by dropping the yoke a bit". Or you could just try steering the bloody thing and not let the tail wag the dog.!!

Any way it's your round now..:D All I want to do is get past the bar room wisdom that seems to surround suspension set ups and find some facts..Elusive as they seem to be.

But thanks for replying..:D...and Dirty I can't stand Indian, send for some Pizza..:D

[Mr Gazza]

6mm is for track use, a road bike should be set to between 10-15mm.

If you go onto the Ohlins web site and search for suspension set up, all details given there.

Cheers Chris..:D

[Dirty]

http://www.sportrider.com/ask-geek-set-your-static-sag

http://www.sportrider.com/suspension-setup-guide

[Mr Gazza]

Thanks Dirty, My cup runneth over.


"One common misconception is that there is some magical setting that will work for every rider in every situation (and we'll be the first to admit that our suggested settings are not that wonderful setup, but rather a starting point). But that certainly is wishful thinking. Tires, your riding style, where you ride, the condition of your suspension and rider weight and ability all play a part in finding optimum settings. The setup you (or we) find may be completely off base for someone else. As enigmatic as the optimum suspension setup may seem, this guide sums up the important parts in five easy steps that will help you get the most from your bike."


OOps.. I might have said too much....My round again...:D

[Flip]

All i can say is it's great shame we are not discussing this in front of a blazing fire whilst supping pints, my friends. Because I would likely dissagree loudly, with colourful language, whilst laughing at what you have said...and then get 'em in again so we could go on dissagreeing in a good natured way..:chuckle:

Yes Flip all I have done is mess with the preload, and I seek to do better.

What you say about Monster suspension and geometry sounds so wrong to one who comes from a long line of Brit twins. To me the Monster is from a race bred line (851 888) and also is a Sie with Ohlins at the back and fully adjustable Showas on the front possibly containing Ohlins cartriges, and about as far from a chopper as i could imagine. (I've ridden a few appalling ones)...I don't think there is any putting right to do, in fact I may well ignore Carl Harrisond comments and just revert to the original setting until I know better.

Right oh!! I'll have an Ale with you then!!

Now that I've seen the 'S' moniker in front of the 'i.e' on your profile I realise you have the Öhlins equipped model which does make a difference for sure (although I am lead to believe the Öhlins fitted from a factory is not quite the same as what you'd buy aftermarket) and I appreciate what you say about comparing a Monster to old Brit bikes or anything from a few decades ago- my race bike is the big 5-0 this year!

As you sent the ride height spacers off to improve Dirty Blondes' rear end I have to ask why did You pull the forks through the yokes rather than lift the rear a little- it essentially has the same effect on the geometry while maintaining or improving ground clearance along with raising the C of G to improve the effort required to turn it in?

The by-product of tipping the thing forward means it puts a bit more weight bias to the front tyre so your feeling of 'running wide' being combatted by 'steering the bloody thing' is actually under steer and by 'steering more' you are actually putting more demand on a given level of grip.

As Utopia says, of course this speeding up of the steering is a compromise between that and stability.

Personally, if it were my bike- I would look at getting the correct springs for your riding weight along with a fork re-valve and then at least the basics are right then you can work on your personal preferences as to how you want it to steer and ride.

After all, we all like and want different things from our bikes which is what makes Monsters such lovable things to ride.

[Mr Gazza]

Right oh!! I'll have an Ale with you then!!


That's the spirit..:D

Congrats on the little Duke's birthday....I love the old uns too.

The thing with the ride hieght extenders was just me favouring a lower CoG, a lower seat hieght, (Due to my diddy little pins) and a spin off being a more stable side stand.

I hear what you say about a slightly higher CoG and the steering effort, but as you might have gathered I don't mind making it point in the right direction with a little physical persuasion, I also get that, that very "physical" effort is transfered to the tyre and does test the grip..Obviously one doesn't chuck it about too much in the wet.

I have always thought that a lower CoG is better since the days of chasing a little ridgid ES2 round Norfolks best bends. I always had to scratch my Bonnie to keep up as he sailed round almost upright..Not too many Ohlins on a ridgid Norton either!!

Another reason for me favouring "slow" but stable steering is one of a few similar experiences on an OIF Bonnie, when I gunned her up to 90 to pass a Transit and hit a puddle about 4" deep and roughly 3 Transit lengths long!!
Needless to say there was quite a plume of water and fair bit of noise from so much hitting the Transit. Plus the bark of my Bonnie.... I really though that would be"it" but the long rake kept us all straight as I held her open and got through in one piece.....Things like that stick with you.

Part of playing with the various sags is to establish if the springs are satisfactory...They feel okay to me.
I do feel that there is no point fixing it if it aint broke, but if I can improve it a little with a bit of sensible tweaking then bring it on.

I might just try 15mm of rear static sag, being a bit up on 18mm, 6mm being too much for the moment.

The rear end has always squatted down quite a lot when I mount her, but doesn't feel too soft or untoward in motion, although I think she has bottomed out a couple of times in potholes, so a gnats more pre-load might do the trick. (< Your call Dirty!)

If I've learned anything , it's that the set up is a personal preferance thing.

Cheers..:drunk:

[utopia]

Ok.
Norfolk beer is pretty good in my experience.
We should and almost certainly will, do this round the table.
But for now ..what's an "OIF" Triumph.

I'm a little confused that you say that it "felt like an old friend" with the forks flush with the top yoke, but you also say that you like the way it feels with the front 20mm lower ..all else presumably being equal ..or not perhaps ? See, we need beer to sort out these confusions !
My comments about the hedge come from my experience last year when, without altering the rear (cos I hadn't made my hoop extenders yet), I raised the front by about 15mm, to give clearance for my flat bars.
It just didn't want to turn at all easily at high speed, and I really did have to put in some concentrated effort not to go straight on, into the aforementioned hedge, at every bend.
This was on the Matlock run last year. It was always my intention to raise the rear to match the front before riding it (thus maintaining the original geometry) but well, the sun was shining, the tank was full.
Once I'd fitted the hoop extenders, normality was restored.
It has to be said though that I have straight bars on std risers and moderately extreme rearsets, and I'm lanky, all of which does put a lot of weight on the front end (which works for me, on the monster) ...very unlike the conventional "Captain America" position.

Incidentally... Which way do you yank the bars ?

Whiskey chaser, anyone ?

[StevieL]

oif oil in frame, as used by BSA and Triumph in the late 60's and early 70's, the main tube and centre down tube were hollow and held the bikes oil, saved the expense of a separate tank. The 3.8% Norfolk Terrier at Lessingham would have been ideal for a prolonged discussion on suspension ( or anything else with the log burner revved up )
atb Steve

[Mr Gazza]

Oil in Frame. As Stevie says.

The spine tube was a "massive" 3" tube which held the oil.

They had lots of rake and castor, while very stable they would need a good nudge to get them over.
You pull the right bar towards yourself to steer, or lean to the left, and vice versa.
They actually tolerate a quite violent yank on the bars. One freind of mine had a reputation for snapping handlebars...I could never keep up with him..!

I had to learn a lighter touch when I had my Moto Morini 3 1/2 Sport. That was a very quick steering bike and would bite back if I tried to input any "steering".

You will already be pulling on the right bar to go left, but it is a sub-concsious or instinctive thing. A slow steering bike like an "OIF" will need a deliberate tug where as a quicker steering bike will need much less effort to the point of being subliminal in some cases...Is that what they call telepathic handling?

The range of adjustment to the geometry on a Monster allows it to go from heavy old Triumph steering to twitchy. Somewhere in the middle is a nice responsive, yet stable medium...Steering I understand , and I know what I like.

However suspension is another thing, and the present Sie Monster represents to me, the most sophisticated rolling chassis I have had so far. Having been used to about three pre-load setting on the rear shocks before.
My last Monster seemed near to perfection to me, and maybe it had been very cleverly set up, being an ex demo bike...needless to say I didn't fiddle with it.
This one has more knobs to fiddle with than I have ever had, so It will be fun learning a bit more about suspension...I've learned a lot in the last couple of evenings......:mand:

Cheers...I'd prefer a nice fruity Cider to Whiskey...:booze:

[Capo]

I had a T140V, I remember it as a very good handling bike, I could crank it over and drag hard parts on the tarmac.

You cant really know weight distribution unless you measure it.

[Mr Gazza]

I had a T140V, I remember it as a very good handling bike, I could crank it over and drag hard parts on the tarmac.

You cant really know weight distribution unless you measure it.

Oh yes they handled very well, but it was easy to grind metal on the tarmac.
I used to put a 20mm piece of handlebar tube in the forks on top of the spring. The extra pre-load helped a lot to keep the grinding noises down when cranked over.!....Tuning the suspension even in those days, eh!

Looking forward to a better informed session of analysis and tweaking, having absorbed most of the info from the links very kindly posted on this thread....Even if they did refer to some suspension parts as "boingers".,:chuckle::rolleyes: