Engine restoration

[iev]

I need to completely restore the engine in my m750. Does anyone know of any resources other than Haynes. I need to restore everything from the paint to the crabs and I don't even know how to take it out of the bike yet!

The engine works beautifully but the bike used to live outside so its looking rough.

Ta

[slob]

a haynes 'book of lies' is usually a pretty good place to start
checkout the ukmocbikes section (http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/forumdisplay.php?f=100)

here are some recent-ish ones
dookbob (http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=51274)
yorkie (http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=51173)
taff666 (http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=51203)
dukedesmo (http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=43562)
mr gazza (http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=47637)
yorkie (ss) (http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=48292)
slob (http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=46630)
littlejimmy12 (http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=46088)
sta22 (http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=46625)

going back further you'll find an m900 by cutter, very special S4Rs by capo and marchesini, an m600 by shandy, an s4 by mintyhit, single sider coversions by stuart42 & alibe, jmo's 'smeagal'... the list goes on, sorry for all those i missed

good luck with the crabs ;-)

[slob]

...ck & ak, scrapps, emily's driver, paranoid dave

[iev]

There's some useful things in there, got me thinking. The engine will need repainting so i'll have to find somewhere near Macclesfield to do it.

[slob]

several of the threads involve masking and spraying the whole lump (in the shed), if it's a good runner you may not want to spend a fortune rebuilding it because the outside's a bit tatty

[iev]

35 k on the clock, if you look at my profile pic you can see the numpty who painted it even painted the rocker covers yellow.

The bike feels sluggish over 70, the old m600 I used to have felt faster.

I'm going to have to drain the engine of oil to remove the rocker covers I'm guessing. So I might as well look at what I can do!

[iev]

The whole engine looks like this

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s458/VEI2014/image_zps65933d9d.jpg

[Yorkie]

Iev,

I agree with slob unless you are stripping the complete engine then an external refresh is all you need.

My ST2 engine is now a bear shell as it will be blasted and then lacquered so it is silver. I will then take the side cases, cam covers and valve covers off and get them coated a different colour.

I will be interested in what you decide to do, and how far you strip it down.

Yorkie

[iev]

Iev,

I agree with slob unless you are stripping the complete engine then an external refresh is all you need.

My ST2 engine is now a bear shell as it will be blasted and then lacquered so it is silver. I will then take the side cases, cam covers and valve covers off and get them coated a different colour.

I will be interested in what you decide to do, and how far you strip it down.

Yorkie

When you say blasted then lacquered do you mean blasted down to the bear metal then lacquered so the bear metal is showing?

I quite fancy that, it'd be a bit cheaper to I guess!

[bluestoesonnose]

The whole engine looks like this

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s458/VEI2014/image_zps65933d9d.jpg

If you want to refresh the paint, get some 3M Clean and Strip Disks and some general B&Q varnish removal disks, for the detail you can get small versions for the ever useful Dremel. Take all the paint and corrosion off the engine and you'll be ready for a repaint.

I've refreshed a few Brit bike engines this way and it works well, just do a little at a time and keep walking away when you get bored and coming back to it the next day, it gets addictive.

In the past on Jap motors I've used silver steel car wheel (rattle can) paint on the cases, yellows a bit around the exhaust ports but depends on what you want from a re-build. I must admit the last Jap motor I did I fresh water washed and scrubbed with a stiff nylon brush before I started to get any salts out.

If you feel you have a drop in performance it may be worth pulling the heads and barrels and checking the bores, piston rings and lapping in and re shimming the valves. You can always get the heads and barrels powder coated whilst you're at it.

[Yorkie]

When you say blasted then lacquered do you mean blasted down to the bear metal then lacquered so the bear metal is showing?

I quite fancy that, it'd be a bit cheaper to I guess!

That's the plan at the moment, it should be getting done within the next week or so when the casing repair is complete. I will post the results and a cost.

Yorkie

[Flip]

Personally if it were mine I would address the running issues you have before pulling too much apart.

Get the carbs cleaned (of crabs?? :spin:) and the valves checked and adjusted if needed along with a good service especially if you think it doesn't go as well as your old 600.

Then once you know it is running as it should be you can start looking at getting it cleaned up the best way for the result you are looking for.

[Mr Gazza]

Vapour blasting would get that engine looking breathtakingly new.

It uses (I believe) ceramic beads blasted in a steam or liquid medium.
The beads peen the surface of the ally and so don't leave it so porous as grit blasting does.
The steam or whatever liquid washes all the cruddy dust away at the same time .

The result is a sparkling engine which does not then pick up stains, fingermarks ect so easily.

I've seen lots done on various bikes, but only ever had a Triumph head done myself. It just stands apart from any other metal finish.

If you want to paint, then I would say fine grit blasting or dry (conventional)bead blasting would be perfect. The only paint I would reccomend would be VHT...Lovely stuff to use.

Finally...Whatever blasting or prepping proccess you use it is vitally important to mask any hole or chink which might allow blasting medium into the engine...Remember the inspection glasses too.

Use metal masks over inlet and exhuast ports, bolted down firmly onto water pump grease. Make sure there is a metal (not plastic) sacrificial oil filler bung and also oil cooler bungs.....ALL the holes.
A dollop of water pump grease on the inspection glasses might do the trick but have a word with the blaster about those.

[iev]

Vapour blasting would get that engine looking breathtakingly new.

It uses (I believe) ceramic beads blasted in a steam or liquid medium.
The beads peen the surface of the ally and so don't leave it so porous as grit blasting does.
The steam or whatever liquid washes all the cruddy dust away at the same time .

The result is a sparkling engine which does not then pick up stains, fingermarks ect so easily.

I've seen lots done on various bikes, but only ever had a Triumph head done myself. It just stands apart from any other metal finish.

If you want to paint, then I would say fine grit blasting or dry (conventional)bead blasting would be perfect. The only paint I would reccomend would be VHT...Lovely stuff to use.

Finally...Whatever blasting or prepping proccess you use it is vitally important to mask any hole or chink which might allow blasting medium into the engine...Remember the inspection glasses too.

Use metal masks over inlet and exhuast ports, bolted down firmly onto water pump grease. Make sure there is a metal (not plastic) sacrificial oil filler bung and also oil cooler bungs.....ALL the holes.
A dollop of water pump grease on the inspection glasses might do the trick but have a word with the blaster about those.

If you vapour blasted would you have then engine lacquered afterwards?

[slob]

personally the only type of blasting i'd consider on a whole engine is soda blasting.

spend some time searching the threads i posted linked above and googling until you're more comfortable with what you need to do.
several ukmoc members have masked and painted whole engines on tight budgets.

http://caferacersunited.com/how-to-paint-a-cafe-racer-engine/
http://www.customfighters.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44453
(i just googled "engine painting motorcycle")

you need to choose some sort of vht (very high temp) paint or laquer, particulary for the top end.
not all primers are suitable for engine temperatures.

[iev]

personally the only type of blasting i'd consider on a whole engine is soda blasting.

spend some time searching the threads i posted linked above and googling until you're more comfortable with what you need to do.
several ukmoc members have masked and painted whole engines on tight budgets.

http://caferacersunited.com/how-to-paint-a-cafe-racer-engine/
http://www.customfighters.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44453
(i just googled "engine painting motorcycle")

you need to choose some sort of vht (very high temp) paint or laquer, particulary for the top end.
not all primers are suitable for engine temperatures.

I might look at taking the main bits apart rather than spaying as a lump like it says in the instructions. That way when and if I swap parts or do some fettelling I won't have any problems that you'd have if you'd sprayed as a block.

[slob]

it'll also look better if you dont spray all the bolts

[Nickj]

The bike feels sluggish over 70, the old m600 I used to have felt faster.


At 80K my engines not at all sluggish over 70, that's a speed a bit between 4th and 5th. It ought to flick up to fairly naughty speeds quite readily.
Hustling I go up into 5th at a touch under 80 and it gets to 90+ in a few seconds from there.. that is of course hypothetically speaking of course ;)
Then it might just be a matter of 'feel', the 750 motor is much more relaxed at the same speeds compared to a 600 so it might just feel like it's doing less work and going slower.

Get the carbs cleaned and synched and the valves checked. At 35K the motor should be fine internally as long as the oils been changed regularly and it is coming out clean and bit free.

[Mr Gazza]

If you vapour blasted would you have then engine lacquered afterwards?

I have not seen vapour blasted alloy lacquered or painted. My head kept it's finish all the time I had that bike. However it will turn white in an instant if you ride out in the salt. You could compensate for that with a squirt of WD40 or Waxoyl, but even that may stain where it gets hot enough to burn on.

Road salt buggers everything up so you make your own choices about that. Otherwise I think the Vapour blasted finish is okay bare for a long time.

Slob raised the issue of the fasteners, which will all get the same blasting as the rest, so would have to be changed out after blasting, or after painting, as they are mostly plated steel as standard.
The worst ones to deal with would be the Head nuts, as they would need to be removed in sequence and then re-torqued carefully...Unless of course you want to just paint over the whole lot.
All the other screws can be removed and replaced one at a time.
I sprayed my clutch side cover in-situ with the screws removed without breaking the gasket seal, but all the other covers can easily be removed for painting/polishing.

Yorkie's method sounds best....Do the whole lump then deal with the covers and screws afterwards.

Just thought....Probably best to pop off the alternator cover and remove the stator to protect the cables from blasting. Or replace the cover with the cables tucked inside...And don't forget to seal the cable hole...:spin:

[iev]

There's a guy in Salford who can vapour blast an engine for £200. I think this needs some more research and thinking about.

The engine is the only bit of the bike restoration that is panicking me.

[Dennis menace]

I enquired about vapour blasting and the 'quote' was £350 'upwards' if I delivered and collected the engine. The price was not fixed because, and I quote: 'Ducati's are more difficult than other bikes'. I assume this refers to the 'open' nature of the cam belt covers that have to dealt with somehow - I believe this involves removing the belts and gear. In the end I gave up. Going to use the Dremel method.

[iev]

I enquired about vapour blasting and the 'quote' was £350 'upwards' if I delivered and collected the engine. The price was not fixed because, and I quote: 'Ducati's are more difficult than other bikes'. I assume this refers to the 'open' nature of the cam belt covers that have to dealt with somehow - I believe this involves removing the belts and gear. In the end I gave up. Going to use the Dremel method.

What's the Dremel method?

[Dennis menace]

Hard work with a small power too. Dremel is the best thing for small job such as polishing and cutting. Got mine at Christmas:
http://www.diy.com/departments/dremel-4000-rotary-tool-kit-with-flexishaft/189217_BQ.prd?gclid=CMXbpfu6w8MCFQHMtAodmn4Ahg&ecamp=SEAPLA189217_BQ&ef_id=VM@IKQAABffaQ3l5:20150202142233:s

[iev]

I've decided that I'm going for vapour blasting as GASA suggested. there's a place local to me in Macclesfield that does it. If a Dremel is £75 plus additional parts and protective gear plus paint and sundries I can see it costing £150 is to do it my self. I can't see it worth all that work to save £50. Especially if I'll get a better finish vapour blasting.

Plus Nickj says at my milage the engine should be fine so if when its back together I'm not happy with the way it's running. I don't have to worry about taking the engine apart and having to repaint a second time as I haven't sprayed it as a block.

[Nickj]

Vapour blasting will just clean the surface??
Soda blasting gently knocks the muck off.. Does it peen the surface at all even finely?? That would give a better key surface for paint or make it less prone to oxidisation.

:idea: Seal all the holes and visit the local dip'n'strip facility :idea:

[iev]

Vapour blasting will just clean the surface??
Soda blasting gently knocks the muck off.. Does it peen the surface at all even finely?? That would give a better key surface for paint or make it less prone to oxidisation.

:idea: Seal all the holes and visit the local dip'n'strip facility :idea:

Think Ill go with the Vapour as the company is only 1mile away from me. I'm not looking to paint, I think the bare metal will fit the new look I'm planning for the bike.

[Mr Gazza]

I think you have made the right choice, but check out the blasters work before you commit and have a chat with him about masking...You really can't afford to get any ceramic beads or parts of, into the engine.

I must admit I had forgotten about the plastic belt covers until Dennis mentioned them.
Best to take them right off and certainly all the rollers and tensioner parts...Blanking the threaded holes with old bolts as you go.
You might get away with leaving the pullies on...Not sure? Best to take them off if you can. Which just leaves the exposed ends of the shafts.
The last grit blasting I had done, the chappie masked with a thick self adhesive aluminium tape...Maybe your blaster is familliar with that? Like I said have a word.

...And good luck. Can't wait to see the results.

[iev]

I think you have made the right choice, but check out the blasters work before you commit and have a chat with him about masking...You really can't afford to get any ceramic beads or parts of, into the engine.

I must admit I had forgotten about the plastic belt covers until Dennis mentioned them.
Best to take them right off and certainly all the rollers and tensioner parts...Blanking the threaded holes with old bolts as you go.
You might get away with leaving the pullies on...Not sure? Best to take them off if you can. Which just leaves the exposed ends of the shafts.
The last grit blasting I had done, the chappie masked with a thick self adhesive aluminium tape...Maybe your blaster is familliar with that? Like I said have a word.

...And good luck. Can't wait to see the results.

I know the owner of a Dirt Bike Shop and he has recommended this guy and a different guy for powder coating and different guys for this and that. I'm going to value is experience with suppliers. But i'm still going to have a word with the chap to. As he's only down the road he might find me dropping in quite often while he does it. A bit like an expectant father

[Dennis menace]

Let us know how you get on. I have two, very dirty engines to clean and Macclesfield is not that far from me!