help/advice needed

[smiffyraf1]

hi guys
this is going to be a long one im afraid.
i know that some of you are aware i recently (5/5/14) had an accident on the monster. the details briefly were i was overtaking a car by using the lane separators (diagonal white lines) still well within the speed limit and as i approached the car it suddenly and without indication moved in front of me on to the diag white lines and braked hard at the same time with what i view was the intention of turning into an un signposted farm entrance (that has a closed gate at the end to stop people driving down)i point this out as i realise if this was a junction signposted or otherwise it would not be an ideal overtaking point. This manouver caused me to impact the rear of the car and cartwheel down the road as i obviously had no time to brake or react.
i realise this wasnt an open and shut case but the impression i got from the police and family and friends was that i would not be found to blame.
now in the past few days i have received email saying the prosecution has elected rather than prosecute me for careless/dangerous driving to offer me a driver awareness course! obviously i am furious about this. and have spent a much time making sure i was in the right. pointing the officer to the relevant sections of the highway code i:e:

Highway Code 130: Areas of white diagonal stripes...If the area is bordered by a broken white line, you should not enter the area unless it is necessary and you can see that it is safe to do so.

I'd say it's necessary to enter the hatched area in order to pass traffic as i ensured it was safe to do so. It's one of those grey areas in road law. The use of the word 'should not' instead of 'MUST NOT' means the rule is question is advisory, not law.

On the other hand, the car driver did not heed these:

HC 144: You MUST NOT -
drive dangerously
drive without due care and attention
drive without reasonable consideration for other road users.

HC 147: Be considerate. Be careful of and considerate towards all types of road users, especially those requiring extra care. You should -
try to be understanding if other road users cause problems; they may be inexperienced or not know the area well.
be patient; remember that anyone can make a mistake.
slow down and hold back if a road user pulls out into your path at a junction. Allow them to get clear. Do not over-react by driving too close behind to intimidate them.

HC 151: In slow-moving traffic. You should -
reduce the distance between you and the vehicle ahead to maintain traffic flow
never get so close to the vehicle in front that you cannot stop safely.
leave enough space to be able to manoeuvre if the vehicle in front breaks down or an emergency vehicle needs to get past.
be aware of cyclists and motorcyclists who may be passing on either side.

HC 160: Once moving you should -
be aware of other road users, especially cycles and motorcycles who may be filtering through the traffic. These are more difficult to see than larger vehicles and their riders are particularly vulnerable. Give them plenty of room...

HC 168: Being overtaken. If a driver is trying to overtake you, maintain a steady course and speed, slowing down if necessary to let the vehicle pass. Never obstruct drivers who wish to pass. Speeding up or driving unpredictably while someone is overtaking you is dangerous. Drop back to maintain a two-second gap if someone overtakes and pulls into the gap in front of you.

anyway skip to the point. what should i do? fight it take it on the chin?
im stumped
thanks
smiffy

[jonzi]

Get legal counsel?

I used Riders support Service recently for a claim

I don't know if they can help you out in this situation or not but it's free to ask

Alternatively, go to piston heads and make a post on the "Speed, Plod and the Law" section. Many lawyers frequent there and they will be in a better position to advice you than most (all?) on here.

And good luck.

[smiffyraf1]

thanks Dan i have now put on pistonheads also.

[Kato]

http://www.bikelawyer.co.uk/

[Darkness]

The Driver Awareness Course will cost you money and you'll be talked at like a dangerous criminal, but has the advantages that you don't get points on your licence or have to tell your insurance about it, plus it's quickly over and done with.
It does mean you are accepting some blame though, and that won't help your claim against the other driver's insurance.
If you want to argue your innocence you can choose to not apply for the training, then you get your day in court to argue your case. That is going to cost considerably more as you are unlikely to be awarded costs even if you are acquitted.
It comes down to whether you are willing to accept blame, how much time and money you are willing to stake to be allowed to protest your innocence and how much insurance payout you could lose through taking the "easier" option of the training.
Only you can answer the first part, and you should use someone professionally qualified for proper advice on the insurance bit. I see there are suggestions for lawyers in other posts so hope that they come on the basis of good experience.
Think hard about it, make your choice and good luck!

[steeevvvooo]

but has the advantages that you don't get points on your licence or have to tell your insurance about it

Admiral want to know about speed awareness courses. Just another way of getting money out of you! grrrr :banghead:

[utopia]

My analysis of the situation......
Strictly speaking, you probably shouldn't really have been overtaking on the cross-hatched area.
I don't think that you can really say that it was necessary to enter the area, as it wasn't really necessary to make the overtake in the first place.
On the other hand, any driver who moves to the centre of the road and then brakes hard without first looking behind is committing a far greater error.
The very fact that the highway code states that you can enter such areas if (absolutely) necessary means that other drivers must surely also be required to check that the area is clear before making any manoeuvre which would endanger any vehicle which may be there, for whatever reason.
Indeed, even if it was completely forbidden to enter these areas under any circumstances, it is still folly to make any manoeuvre whatsoever without first checking that the area is clear, particularly if you intend to brake hard in the middle of a major road.

But that's just my personal analysis.....the law can be a strange beast sometimes and we all know that bikers often suffer prejudice in these circumstances.

I would say that there probably was a degree of carelessness in your actions, and therefore a charge of careless driving could stick, so you would be better to avoid the case and take the speed awareness course.
On the other hand, the car driver was the more careless party in this situation, in my opinion, and they too ought to be prosecuted for that.

The complications arise when the outcome of any such case/s are then applied to the insurance company's willingness to pay out......and I'm afraid I can offer no guidance at all here except to say that if they can possibly worm their way out of paying up, they will almost certainly do so.
Accepting the speed awareness course will almost certainly be seen as an acceptance of at least some of the blame for the incident, but then again a conviction for careless driving is likely to have the same effect, only to a greater degree.

The above is just a personal analysis though.
It may well not tally with the "official" viewpoint but I hope it may help to focus your own thoughts on the matter.

Hope you're continuing to mend well, mate.

[Dirty]

What Jonzi said. Get a lawyer, a good one.

[smiffyraf1]

well on another point then what are peoples opinions of using the hatched area to overtake. until recently i had always assumed it was illegal to enter this area and would never go near them. it was only after attending a police run bike safe course in oct that i was actively encouraged to use these areas and informed was perfectly legal to do so.

[Dirty]

I'll overtake anywhere, on anything, including paved areas on occasion. But then I'm a London biker and that is where I'm comfortable. Don't particularly like country riding and am extra cautious as soon as I approach anything near or beyond the M25! :)

[utopia]

Tbh its years since I read a copy of the highway code so I don't know the definitive answer.
But, if cross-hatched areas are bounded by broken rather than continuous white lines, it seems reasonable to assume that they are not "no go" areas, and therefore it must be legal (but perhaps hazardous) to enter them.

Personally, I either stay out of them , or else use them with extreme caution.
...which I guess is what you were doing at the time of your accident, although perhaps it could be argued that it wasn't strictly necessary to do so.
Seems to me its a bit of a grey area.

As a slightly off beam example...
First day out on my monster, I was exiting the M1 northbound at junction 21A.
Its a double exit and although the first one of these is signposted "Leicester" I actually needed the other exit.
I didn't realise this until I had slightly overshot the first exit but still had time for a change of plan if I used the cross-hatched area between the two exits.....which I did after first checking that there were no other vehicles around.
Problem was, halfway across the cross hatched area I came across a concrete lined drainage channel, about 6 inches wide and deep, which I had no option but to cross.
As I was doing maybe 60mph at the time, I hit this with quite a thump.
Fortunately I had just enough time to straighten the bike up and avoid hitting it obliquely and potentially crashing, but it did put a couple of sizeable dings in my front rim and a small split in the front tyre.

Should I have been in the cross hatched area at all ?
My own view is that it was ok under the circumstances, but it would seem that the road designers thought otherwise.
Well, either that or they completely disregarded the needs of the motorcyclist, as I guess a car would have got away with it without a problem.

[MerlinPV12]

I did the Bike Safe course a couple of weeeks ago and found it really helpful. I raised the issue of the "ghost islands" as this hatched area is often referd to. Both bike cops said fine to use at your risk - the risk being they are hatched for a reason and this is where the "nail fairy's live" (direct quote!). On the afternoon assessd ride I used them twice and my asssesor followed me into them, on his Police Bike.

Its a tricky one this as we're all tempted to use them on the basis that they afford us an advantage to make better progress. I tend to only use them when I can clearly see the traffic is not moving.

I'm inclined to agree with Dirty on getting professional advice from someone who will follow it through with you. The choices you have right now are equally distasteful, without advice it really comes down to which one you can learn to live with in the shortest time.

Really sorry you going through this as it tends to be all consuming - good luck and hope you'll soon be fit and well :thumbsup:

[jonzi]

Tbh its years since I read a copy of the highway code so I don't know the definitive answer.

Unfortunately this is the case with most people

How often are people doing 40 in a NSL and stopping where they shouldn't and not looking where they should.

The person that knocked you off, Smiffy, was not paying attention to other road users. You used a hatched area to over take, as you are allowed to do.

As I said before you should seek proper legal help on this.

You will get a million and one opinions on what is right and wrong but the one you need is the correct legal stand point and I dont know how many solicitors are on UKMOC

(This isn't a dig at any one btw)

[Funkatronic]

speak to rider support services (http://www.ridersupport.co.uk)

[smiffyraf1]

thanks for the advice guys.
wow the guys on the pistonheads forum are complete douchebags!

[Dirty]

You will get a million and one opinions on what is right and wrong but the one you need is the correct legal stand point

Until you go to court all you will get is opinion. The opinion of a solicitor or barrister who specialises in this area is of course worth more than forum speculation, but it's still only opinion.

I just spoke to a copper mate of mine and he said it's not illegal to drive/ride in hatched areas but if it goes tits up it's your fault!

[Nickj]

1. Yes you can use then as road space, it isn't illegal. That's not a thing that can be contested, end of. The caveat is that " You should not enter any hatched area bounded by a broken line unless it is safe to do so."
2. Yes you can use then as road space it isn't illegal. As with any other part of the road you owe a duty of care to other road users.
3. Other road users equally owe you a duty of care.

So essentially offering the course is them saying you were probably not giving reasonable car to other users. Also it is quite possible that they are aware it is grey incident and you are more likely to take the awareness course but could easily contest the formal charge and win. It is likely that one or more myopic car drivers have suddenly noticed you, hence you were going really really fast in the overtake. This happens frequently with bikes as the accident stats will attest ... SMIDSY
However the car driver also owes you a give you a duty of care as he was also going to enter that bit of road space. You have to assume that he didn't look and SMIDSY but covered this by the suddenly never saw him moving so fast etc etc

Like the old chestnut of filtering/lane splitting where its now case proven law that a filtering accident, if you are making reasonable efforts to excercise your duty of care, are at least 50:50 and more often greater in our favour this is all down to what a reasonable person would consider reasonable care in the circumstances. Hard to prove but I'd think its at least a very murky grey in your favour.

Same happened to someone where I work, car u-turned over the hatches he was riding on. Police offered him an undue care which was subsequently binned and he got a reasonable amount of folding money. Car driver got an awareness course rather than an undue care.

Get some pro legal advice and ignore the piston heads comments, sound like a bunch of twats

[Akita Boy]

Don't confuse the Highway Code with legislation. The HC is (at best) a number of guidelines which you have no legal obligation to follow. It's impossible to be prosecuted for breaking the Highway Code.

All road markings, signage, speed restrictions and driving offences are covered by the Road Traffic Act 1988, which is one of the dullest and most pedantic pieces of statute law there is.
I'd be very wary of any advice other than 'go and speak to a solicitor' as they'll be able to get full disclosure from the prosecution in order to prepare your defence.

In relation to diagonals with broken white lines they are 'ghost islands' and you can treat the broken white lines in exactly the same way you'd treat broken white lines down the middle of the road when overtaking.

However, balance a morning being lectured at a speed awareness course against points, a fine or a ban (any combination of which are a possibility once you spin the roulette wheel at magistrates court)

Best of luck whichever way you decide to go, but legal advice is an absolute necessity before you make a decision.

[garry]

Get some pro legal advice and ignore the piston heads comments, sound like a bunch of twats




a little harsh :biggrin:

but so true, thats the general opinion mucker, hope yer heed it, and not rely on fuds on a forum..

[smiffyraf1]

Don't confuse the Highway Code with legislation. The HC is (at best) a number of guidelines which you have no legal obligation to follow. It's impossible to be prosecuted for breaking the Highway Code.

All road markings, signage, speed restrictions and driving offences are covered by the Road Traffic Act 1988, which is one of the dullest and most pedantic pieces of statute law there is.
I'd be very wary of any advice other than 'go and speak to a solicitor' as they'll be able to get full disclosure from the prosecution in order to prepare your defence.

In relation to diagonals with broken white lines they are 'ghost islands' and you can treat the broken white lines in exactly the same way you'd treat broken white lines down the middle of the road when overtaking.

However, balance a morning being lectured at a speed awareness course against points, a fine or a ban (any combination of which are a possibility once you spin the roulette wheel at magistrates court)

Best of luck whichever way you decide to go, but legal advice is an absolute necessity before you make a decision.

thanks for that. yeah thats the exact same thing (almost word for word) they had said on the police course. i will speak to a solicitor as many have suggested but i was also unaware that taking the course would not affect any civil proceedings i.e. claims/insurance
every days a school day

[Akita Boy]

I was also unaware that taking the course would not affect any civil proceedings i.e. claims/insurance
every days a school day

I'm guessing that it gets mentioned purely to cover the very very small chance of a private prosecution or a small claims court case for loss of earnings etc. both of these are rare so try not too worry about it!

[Darkness]

well on another point then what are peoples opinions of using the hatched area to overtake. until recently i had always assumed it was illegal to enter this area and would never go near them. it was only after attending a police run bike safe course in oct that i was actively encouraged to use these areas and informed was perfectly legal to do so.

It depends on the edge line marking:

1. If it's a solid edge line to the hatching don't enter. It's the same as a double white line.
2. If it's a dashed edge line marking you can enter, but it's at your risk as the road designer didn't intend that bit to be used by either of you unless there's a turning lane within the hatching.

[Dirty]

i was also unaware that taking the course would not affect any civil proceedings i.e. claims/insurance

Taking the course could affect civil proceedings etc. It is essentially 'guilty as charged' and admissible in court.

[smiffyraf1]

sorry just had to share this with you guys. wish id managed to pull this off in my crash http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d5e_1408462761

[Dirty]

sorry just had to share this with you guys. wish id managed to pull this off in my crash http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d5e_1408462761

Wow, that is something else!!! :chuckle:

[Wildfire]

I can recommend White Dalton. they helped my brother out no end and gave him great advice.

[Wildfire]

thanks for the advice guys.
wow the guys on the pistonheads forum are complete douchebags!

Yep. For the most part of it the biker lot are very cliquey both on the net and in real life.

[utopia]

It depends on the edge line marking:

1. If it's a solid edge line to the hatching don't enter. It's the same as a double white line.
2. If it's a dashed edge line marking you can enter, but it's at your risk as the road designer didn't intend that bit to be used by either of you unless there's a turning lane within the hatching.

And.....checking on satellite google maps, the hatched zone which I entered on the M1 junction had a solid white edge line, so I shouldn't have been there.
That's actually what I expected..ie it depends on the edge marking.
But, I probably would have made the move anyway, as there was no obvious danger.
So there's a lesson.
And sorry for slight hijack.

[squarehead]

Highway Code 130: Areas of white diagonal stripes...If the area is bordered by a broken white line, you should not enter the area unless it is necessary and you can see that it is safe to do so.

I think not having the patience to wait until a more suitable passing place may be your undoing.

If you should not, why did you?

Given the outcome was it safe?

Not necessarily my opinion, but these are the questions that will be used against you. Get a good lawyer if you the appetite (and the pocket) for a fight.

[Akita Boy]

Again don't confuse the Highway Code with legislation. The thing about crashes is that at the Exact moment of impact everyone involved is at fault for going too fast and/or being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It's up to accident investigators, the CPS, solicitors and ultimately the magistrates to decide who is the most in the wrong. And failing a decision handed to them by a third party most insurance companies will agree on a 50/50 blame split as that's cheapest and easiest for them.

Bitter and Twisted?? As a Lemon Curly Whirly!

[Darkness]

[QUOTE=Akita Boy;492670]Again don't confuse the Highway Code with legislation./QUOTE]

The 'Traffic Signs Regulations and general Directions' and the Highways Agency's 'Design Manual for Roads and Bridges' have some relevence too.

[smiffyraf1]

yup i do see everyones point and take the criticism on board my only retort being when is any overtake absolutely necessary but i bet everyone does after they have assessed the risks. and after i assessed the risks there was no other traffic, roads were really quiet, i deemed minimal risk and went for it. obviously if the car had been indicating i would have never done this also i dont think i will ever use these areas again. but i do agree i am partly to blame but christ am i meant to go round thinking everyone could slam the anchors on and turn in any direction at any time without signalling? maybe.

[Akita Boy]

Indeed, as are newtons' 3 laws of motion, Darwinism and common sense. But my point remains that you can't be prosecuted for breaking the Highway Code any more than Scotty (on the starship enterprise) can be; for breaking the laws of physics!

Not too sure about my use of a semicolon there, but I felt it needed punctuation.

[Akita Boy]

am i meant to go round thinking everyone could slam the anchors on and turn in any direction at any time without signalling? maybe.

Christ mate No!! We may as well all get off the bikes and walk around in hi vis jackets with bells round our necks waving a red flag if that was the case!!

But personally I do tend to ride as if everyone else on the road is out to try and deliberately kill me without any warning. But that's just me!

There, but for the Grace of God, go I.

[Albie]

Smiffy don't beat yourself up over this. To be fair you have asked advice to aid you and that has been given and that's get someone who knows his stuff who has dealt with police and drivers. You are being put through a court of law here on a forum and I don't think that's good for you. You have been through quite a lot and if I was you would park this thread up and not feel pressured into having to explain on here what you did and why. Save that for the experts and I don't mean to say others have not got sensible knowledge on here but we are not the JURY.
Hope you get a result mate
Albs

[smiffyraf1]

cheers albs im genuinely not taking offence though im grateful of peoples opinions as if it does come to that you guys are more qualified to comment than a jury will be. i wouldnt ever take offence from anything anyone said on here. always found this forum one of the most honest and polite i have ever used :)
As an update i thought i was getting there but this week found out i may have to have another op on hip and arm so thats been a big downer. definitely puts back my plan of getting on a bike soon. the one positive is during my 'workshop therapy' (yes it is a real thing!!) i have managed to make my neice whom is mad on bikes a monster balance bike and thats looking cool. this is where im currently at https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t1.0-9/10622895_10152224173141524_7858786274677904102_n.j pg

[garry]

thats bloody excellent..

[don_matese]

I see its had a tailchop!

[smiffyraf1]

ha it was necessity am afraid due to the length of wood i could aquire. (and i prefer it ;) ) the thing weighs a bloody tonne though.

[Dirty]

Hope you are gonna include a copy of the highway code with it :)

[Albie]

cheers albs im genuinely not taking offence though im grateful of peoples opinions as if it does come to that you guys are more qualified to comment than a jury will be. i wouldnt ever take offence from anything anyone said on here. always found this forum one of the most honest and polite i have ever used :)
As an update i thought i was getting there but this week found out i may have to have another op on hip and arm so thats been a big downer. definitely puts back my plan of getting on a bike soon. the one positive is during my 'workshop therapy' (yes it is a real thing!!) i have managed to make my neice whom is mad on bikes a monster balance bike and thats looking cool. this is where im currently at https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t1.0-9/10622895_10152224173141524_7858786274677904102_n.j pg

That's good. I know sometimes you ask for help and can sometimes appear worse when confronted with stuff you get back. Great your seeing straight and I really do hope you get some sort of justice at least for a 50/50 and love your balance bike if that's what it is. Good training for you to get back on. I take its for you lol. :look:

[Darkness]

i have managed to make my neice whom is mad on bikes a monster balance bike and thats looking cool. this is where im currently at https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t1.0-9/10622895_10152224173141524_7858786274677904102_n.j pg

Nice one Smiffy; I hope she loves it.

If you ask a question we try to answer honestly. If the answers are inconvenient that's unfortunate, but it's not a dig at you. Better to think about how things can appear to others, especially a jury, before embarking on a course of action. It doesn't make you wrong, though you could be thought to be by others: only you can decide what you want to say and do and live with the consequences (That's Nietzsche by the way).
I've done similar myself and got away with it, but I've also been punted off by an idiot. I now treat other drivers as homicidal maniacs until proven otherwise.
So get well soon and choose your battles where you are sure you can win, or you would regret not going down fighting.

[gary tompkins]

Personally, I either stay out of them , or else use them with extreme caution.
...which I guess is what you were doing at the time of your accident, although perhaps it could be argued that it wasn't strictly necessary to do so.
Seems to me its a bit of a grey area.



Ditto

They normally use hatching to provide a refuge (ghost island) for traffic turning right, and this can make it a very dodgy place to overtake in. I would think twice about overtaking other vehicles in close proximity to hatched junctions, hang back and pick a better spot to get past