which track school?!?

[andrewinuk]

after just getting back from 3 straight days of track days, i noticed that the californian superbike school has a day at brands on the 19th august.... straight after a loud track day on the 18th. so of course i'm thinking that i need to do both days!

but before i give them lots of money, does anyone have any experience of their tuition or other options in the uk for learning how to go around corners faster?

any thoughts appreciated.

cheers

a

[J.P]

There are quite a few of us that have used them and their system.
If you're a trackday regular you may already be above their usual entry student, but their 'system' has to be started level 1, then 2, then 3, then 4. You can't skip it.

I found level 1 very useful years back but the bigger learning curve for me was level 2, and 3 is more of a fine tune to level 2.

Yes I think it's useful but why not take the on-track tuition from the trackday company you're using ? Most of them offer some sort of guidance, even though it's not as good as CSS.

[andrewinuk]

thanks for the thoughts, and i started getting some tips last Saturday... it didn't quite work out at the Silverstone day which is a shame as i'd have got a feel for how the CSBS guys go about the process.

i'll have a chat with them tomorrow and make a decision. there is always motovudu in spain in October........ :-)

[J.P]

Jonzi has used that Vudu bloke and he rates him very highly, though he didn't have him every session for the day he'd paid for, he can be looking after more than one student at a time.
Plus his system is different from CSS.

[jonzi]

Are you the Aussie Andrew that has the 900ss that goes down to Rosso Corse?

If you are feeling flush then look up Mike "spike" edwards

Every one over at trackdayriders.co.uk rave about him. And he wins lots of races so must know a thing or two

From what I can remember when I enquired, it's about £400 or so to hire him, then the trackdays for you both and then depending which track you go to there are other fees, like his fuel and stuff.

Probably wouldn't get much change out of £700-800

Simon Crafar. He will take a total of 6 people out each day I think

You do a session with him, then a debrief, he gives you some things to think about and do, then out again with him. repeat for the day. So you get about 3 or 4 sessions with him

I didn't like CSS. For me there was too much of them asking me questions. I don't want to think about why the bike did this or did that. Tell me why, that's why I am here to learn. Annoyed me.

Example.

CSS: How did that session feel?
Jonzi: Good! however on the hairpin I keep messing up
CSS: Why do you think this is?
Jonzi: I am going in to fast
CSS: Why do you think this is?
Jonzi: I like going fast:
CSS: Why do you think this is?
Jonzi: ....

There is also a fella called Nemomoto on the TDR forum and a lot of people say how good he is too. Probably similar pricing as Spike, but he seems to train in the UAE more then here.

[Flip]

Never done any track instruction other than the old Suzuki Race School that was run at Mallory Park circa 1999 which was basically a good go round on the schools GSX-R600's, a bit of a de-brief and then out again until the day ended and the instructor gave you a kind of score- not really much use but a good day out.

Up to date and when I did my ACU licence at Brands at the end of 2011 a couple of the instructors were ex-BSB racers (I can't remember there names... Steeevooo help?) but that was some good pointers from a racing novice point of view.

Mike 'Spike' Edwards does win a lot of races and is often found in the paddock at CRMC events racing a TZ350 (I am pretty sure he's at Donington this weekend) and is quite approachable I believe.

Or you could try Focused Events as they have Hodgy, Whitham, James Haydon and Niall Mackenzie as their instructors at each day.
http://www.focusedevents.com/bmw-track-and-training.asp

Or if you do that many track days- you could just do your ACU license and have access to open pit test days and then buy an old race bike and go racing!!!

I think I'd done maybe three track days in my life before I started racing my Mach1- in at the deep end, it's the best way to learn and all the fun without the egos a lot of track days have.

[Bradders]

Most TD companies just have fast guys as so called instructors, good if you are a real novice or want to learn the lines on a particular track, or looking for very specific feedback eg getting the the throttle soon enough

Example. Went out with NL guy, one of the quicker ones, I was very specific about what I was working on, we came back and all he did was rave that we 'just fecked off' and I was 'leaving lovely darkies' every corner. Flattering possibly, useful totally not

Pure 1-2-1 Spike Edwards, have heard very mixed feedback but he is an excellent communicator and very attentive. Crafar has mixed too as said above he takes on more than one a day and everyone is given the same advice (so it seems)

CSS is about basics and build up from scratch and inflexibility, and taking £1600 plus off you for the 4 levels ;) but i know people who have done the course, gone racing and immediately been quick so it works well for some. Then I've got other friends who have done all 4 levels at least once and are barely inters pace riders ;)

[Flip]

Going on from what I said previously and perhaps what Bradders is saying too, I think it can depend a lot on whether or not you 'gel' with the instructor from the offset because like any learning process if you think the teacher is a nob or he thinks you are (even though he should be impartial) you simply won't want to be part of it and ultimately learn nothing except possibly to spend your money elsewhere and perhaps that's why there are so many mixed opinions on instructors/courses etc.

Admittedly I have never done any of the 1-2-1 instruction (perhaps that's why I'm not that quick) but I can honestly say I learnt more about riding a bike in my first season racing (and much more since) than I ever have done from track days, perhaps too worried about getting home afterwards if I wrecked my bike? Who knows but I have only done a few so maybe not qualified to comment.

[NewMon]

I thoroughly enjoyed the Ron Haslam school at Donington and would recommend it. I did the 600cc version - the 1 litre course is a bit more serious. I learnt a lot and was going a lot faster at the end - the instructor was very good and professional.

[andrewinuk]

Thanks for all the options guys, much appreciated, and yep that's me, Aussie Andrew with the hacked about ss.

And looks like there is no real simple answer even when spending lots of cash...... though on reflection, £1600 does seem a lot for a lot of questions.....

I shall ponder the css option in the short term, but will definitely be going to Brands Hatch on the 18th if any one is keen to join in.

[pegboy]

Hi Andrew, Nice to see you again, how was Cadwell?

I was looking for a track day training also. I was looking around and as mentioned above there are allot of options however one night pondering over the options with the missus i though it would be best to start again and get rid of any bad habbits etc i may have developed, so as a surprise she brought me a CSS level 1 as a Birthday present.

I did have my concerns over doing level 1 and if I would actually benifit from it, and i think i will but i know its learning again and starting from the beginning and getting rid of any bad habbits I probably have developed. So I just need to book a date.

I really hope they don't start asking me all those questions, as Jonzi said, They need to tell me what I am doing wrong and if any good.

If you go CSS route maybe we can get on Level 1 together

[andrewinuk]

I'm hearing you re the Level 1 concerns, but i had a chat with one of the instructors and as i recently sold something at work (helpful when you're a salesman), i've booked level 1 and 2! Hoping i get rid of bad habits as well.......

And i sort of get the question approach, i mean the methodology is from california so we have to give them a bit of latitude...... i guess they are trying to engage us in the process rather than just tell us stuff.

I've also booked the previous day, Monday the 18th so i'll be riding 3 days in a row on the same track, those 5 corners should become very familiar :-)

And Cadwell was great. The atmosphere with the classic bike gang was perfect and every other moment was like being a kid in a candy store as there were so many great bikes. Highly recommended and i'll be back next year!!

[Bradders]

Agree with the racing thing, it takes a track pace and expands it enormously...as long as you don't get overawed

Level 1 CSS will probably give you loads, as its foundations. Have an open mind, be prepared to do what they suggest and build it up from there. :)

I taught myself using the TOTW books, a year racing and using the techniques on the road. Get the right habits then practise those

[andrewinuk]

mmm depending on the job results, racing next year could be an option.... i'll need to sell a bit more! thinking the DD series looks close to perfect.

[Bradders]

It is a great way to start. Cheap. Friendly. And above all slow ;)

[Groovy748]

Did the CSS courses over a few years, found the whole thing a great experience. Level 1 may seem a bit basic if you're a racer but they break it down and build it up, compared to some other track day advice ' just go flat out mate!!' I'd recommend CSS.

[andrewinuk]

Wow! That was the best thing I've ever done for my riding.

I can actually remember the first few corners when I "got it".

Corners now go in slow motion compared to the day before the course and i have heaps more control because im relaxed and know where i am on the track. So it feels slower and safer but the speeds have gone up so that im running out of gears and revs 150 meters earlier on the main straight :-)

This may be basic stuff for some, but for the stage of riding i was at, the course was an epifany!

[Dirty]

That's great news. Give us some more details please. How are the days structured?

[andrewinuk]

I should start out with a spoiler alert..... possibly a strange concept for this topic and a strange concept when carrying out adult learning where we should know the outcomes before we start, but bare with me as the CSS really want you to focus on one thing at a time and not try to preempt what is coming next. So if you want that full experience look away now and when you get there, don't read the class note book till the end of the day.....

I should also say that everyone's experience is likely to be different based on their level of riding and how many bad habits they have picked up...... I had a lot to learn AND unlearn :-)

So, to the school. Each of the first two levels has five key lessons where you have 20 minutes of class room and 20 minutes of track time where an instructor will lead and signal to each rider individually to enforce the lesson, then give feedback and ask questions to make you think after each session. The key thing is you have one very specific thing to learn at each lesson. Some of these things you may: 1. never have heard of, 2. Be aware of but not do consistently or 3. Be good at already. But regardless you have only that learning to focus on which allows you to really embed the skill.

The first lesson was when to start using the throttle in turns. Simple but when applied consistently in every corner, sets a stable platform. Secondly was turn in points and learning to use the spot you choose each time. Thirdly about turning the bike and so it went on. Again these may be basics, but the consistent application using simple rules made an epic difference, and the way they taught really helped embed an understanding of why it was important.

And the interesting thing was that at the end of each track session when the learning was sinking in and your capability was increasing, a new problem would be revealed in your riding. I'd then ask the track instructor, "OK I get that but now I'm finding this happens, what do I do?" And invariably he said "Ah, I won't answer that as it is the topic for the class you have starting in 5 minutes.

So they are basically taking us on a guided journey that reveals our next limitation as we "fix" elements of our riding, where they know what we need to learn before we do. Genius!

Who should go? Well if you lack confidence in corners or find that have a different line each time or find your self too close to the kerbs on exits and its holding you back, then this is for you. If you are racing and can nail lines lap after lap and do corners consistently then you are not going to get as much out of it as a moderate wobler like me who can get around OK in the intermediate group on a trackday but was not consistent.

There were two main outcomes for me: 1. For 30 minutes i had by far the best corners on a motorbike of my life......ever, and felt like a motogp track god. This was obviously NOT the case but the difference between the before and after made it seem like that, and that was pretty special. And 2. I now have a tool kit that i can apply at every track on every corner (and on the road) to make me smoother, more capable, more confident and faster every time I go out. I have a long way to go before I'll be able to ride at the level I want and so much more to learn, but CSS totally put me on the right track....... so to speak....

Apologies for the long and rambling post but didn't know how to explain with less paragraphs. And please feel free to ask questions. Oh and no, I'm not being paid to write this :-) I just think it is a brilliant way to learn, a thought shared by everyone else in my classes on both days.

[Dirty]

Don't apologise Andrew, that is brilliant, thank you

[pompone]

Hi Andy, sounds like you had fun mate. See you soon.
Max ;)

[pegboy]

Thats great ANdy, now I need to book mine

[MerlinPV12]

Andy, your feedback has been really helpful. I'm thinking I'd be starting at a similar point to you and I had my doubts after some of the other comments about CSS. But its sounds like you came away very happy with your investment! Thanks again for taking the time to provide the feedback.