New M796 tanks already swelling and bulging in showroom !!!!!

[jerry]

Today i was in ducati showroom in thailand they had 6 new M796 and 8 hyperstradas in stock and all the monsters already had bulging , swelling tanks caused by Gasohol fuels , so bad the tanks were hard up against steering head and could not be opened ,,,,, amazed they let them out of the factory like that ,,,,2 of the hypers also had the symptoms ...and thats only on the half litre they put in at the factory for testing .

fortunately the new model 821/1200 monsters have metal tanks .

[steeevvvooo]

I thought the newer monster had a fuel cell covered in plastic panels? Are these cells swelling so badly that they are distorting the plastic covers?

[jerry]

Yes ,, the ethanol based fuel is the issue ,,

but when U mean newer it affects all plastic tanked models and those with covers ,, new 821 and 1200 have steel tanks like new panigale Ducati know that plastic tanks are a disaster area , IN USA it has cost them $millions ......

[steeevvvooo]

yes, I know about the plastic tank issue and think it can only get worse (as Ethanol content rises).

I've only had my new monster for a week and haven't had it in bits yet, which is probably a good thing, but isn't there any clearance between the fuel cell and the panels? From reading other posts I was under the impression that minor distortions in the fuel cell on 2009-2014+ Monsters wouldn't be noticeable as the removable covers would hide it?

[AndyC_772]

You might not see it, until you have to take the tank off to get to the battery.

It's tucked in pretty tight at the back, and takes a fair old shove to unclip it. I wouldn't fancy having to try and remove a tank that doesn't even fit properly any more.

[Nickj]

It also absorbs water, put a clean steel nut into a loose sealed container (venting to air as a fuel tank) of 5 or 10% fuel and leave it and watch the rust appear. The 10 rusts a bit faster than the 5 but it all really depends how damp it is.
Now in your steel tank resting over winter. Did I say resting, I meant rusting as the water seperates out after a month or so and starts corroding the base of the tank, yes right there where the hinge already causes problems, not helped by this noxious stuff.

PLUS POINT - Oh yes there is one(ish). You get free water injection :flamed: up to a theoretical maximum of 10% by volume.
MINUS POINT - You might be buying up to 10% water rather than fuel if the garage tanks are low, see above.

It also has a very short shelf life, maybe not so noticable with fuel injection, but there's noticable/measurable degradation after 3 weeks or less depending on dampness and temperature.

[AndyC_772]

Actually that gives me an idea...

I know for a fact that my Kawasaki has - or at least, had - a little water in the tank from when a drain hose got blocked. I'd been a little worried that it was sitting there in the bottom of the tank rusting it away, but would a tank of ethanol-containing fuel actually mix with the water and allow it to pass harmlessly through the engine?

Normally I run it on V-power, but maybe a tank or two of cheap supermarket fuel wouldn't be a bad idea?

What about Tesco's 99 RON fuel... doesn't that contain a fair %age of ethanol?

[jerry]

all UK fuel even V power has some ethanol up to 5% some supermarket fuel has 10% and next year it will be 10% all round ,under EU regs

Then the tide of problems like in USA will appear ,,,, I would NEVER buy a plastic tanked bike

but even steel or alloy tanked bikes will get fuel system issues on Gasohol with 5-10% reduction in fuel economy due to lower calorific of ethanol and also contamination and rot in fuel lines , etc etc etc ,,, i have seen it all in thailand and other places

[utopia]

Last year we drained the tank of my mate's RD350LC.
We removed getting on for a litre of water.
The tank had never been drained previously, so we weren't massively surprised.
But this year we drained another 1/4 litre of water out of it.
Seems a lot to attribute to condensation alone, and the filler cap appears to seal effectively so its not getting in there.
Ethanol issues.....?

If fuel tanks are swelling on brand new bikes in the showroom, that is extremely poor .....ridiculous in fact.

But I've said it before.....ally is the only proper material for a motorcycle tank.

[Dirty]

all UK fuel even V power has some ethanol up to 5% some supermarket fuel has 10% and next year it will be 10% all round ,under EU regs

s

BP Esso Texaco super unleaded are ethanol free

[Nickj]

The only real answers are

Don't use the stuff, buy lots of expensive ethanol free fuel

Put it in and use it as fast as you can, which is what I do at the rate of a tank every 2 days or less

[jonzi]

But I've said it before.....ally is the only proper material for a motorcycle tank.

What's your aluminium welding skills like?

Could you knock up a new tank for a 796?

[jerry]

BP Esso Texaco super unleaded are ethanol free

Yeah but next year its gasohol mandated by EU for all fuels 5-10%

[jonzi]

Yeah but next year its gasohol mandated by EU for all fuels 5-10%

From this (http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/new-e10-fuel-will-cost-uk-motorists/1229022) site

...back in 2009 all EU member states signed up to the Renewable Energy Directive, which requires 10% of road transport energy to be from renewable sources by 2020. The current UK minimum required by the Renewable Transport Fuels Obligation is 4.75%. There are no current plans to mandate the 10% level. ...

From this (http://www.ridermagazine.co.uk/ethanol-in-fuel-scare-mongering-dispelled/) site

First of all, there is currently NO legal obligation for petrol companies in the UK to supply only E10 fuel

And

E5 (current “unleaded”) will be available if you are unsure or your manufacturer tells you your vehicle is incompatible

[jerry]

why are people seeing so many plastic tanks problems in UK then ,, In recent months I have personally seen more than 10 ducatis and 7 ktms with this issue in South east england and friends in the industry have told me they are seeing more of this issue in last year coming into service and repair shops , from many makes with plastic tanks ,, the ethanol is in the fuel chain already JONZI ,E5 is 5% ethanol and that causing damage even at that concentration . i have seen what E10 does in USA and Thailand ,, but E5 just takes longer

Oh and I asked the salesman in ducati shop in Thailand why the tanks were all faulty and bulging , some would not even close or open he said '' its normal all are like that '' is he taking the pixx !!!!

[Dirty]

why are people seeing so many plastic tanks problems in UK then ,,

Because all standard UL pump fuel now contains ethanol at 5% and most people use the cheap stuff.

[steeevvvooo]

Oh and I asked the salesman in ducati shop in Thailand why the tanks were all faulty and bulging , some would not even close or open he said '' its normal all are like that '' is he taking the pixx !!!!

That is taking the pi** for sure! "They all do that sir...".. "yeah, but they shouldn't!" :thumbsdown:

[AndyC_772]

Because all standard UL pump fuel now contains ethanol at 5% and most people use the cheap stuff.

So, how long is it supposed to be before noticeable bulging happens?

Eleanor's 696 is getting on for 5 years old now, and there's no sign of the tank being distorted at all. I had the tank off a couple of weeks ago and it was no more awkward to remove now than it was a few years back. I believe it gets run on Shell or BP unleaded most of the time.

[jonzi]

I have had to change the tank on my 796

But this was due to a leak that had been there since birth probably.

The new tank was from a 696 that had been sat with petrol in it for about a year. the fuel pump was black and rotten but the tank intact.

Swapped the pump from old to old new and haven't had any problems.

As far as I am aware, and I will check when I go in this week, but Rosso Corse don't know about the tank swelling issues on the new ones.

I always put the more expensive fuel in my tank.

Maybe I have just lucked out.

[Dirty]

So, how long is it supposed to be before noticeable bulging happens?



No idea! I would hazard a guess that there are a few variables that influence the issue. 1, how long you leave fuel in. If you fill up, use it, fill up, use it etc then the ethanol doesn't have time to cause damage. 2, heat. Thailand is hot as are many parts of the US. Could this be why it's been a huge problem there and a smaller one here. 3, Humidity, ditto above!

[AndyC_772]

I can definitely see how high temperatures might make the difference. The combination of higher vapour pressure in the tank plus the a degree of softening due to the heat could certainly be to blame - and would also explain why the tanks always bulge, rather than collapsing under gravity (which is what I might have expected if the ethanol simply weakened the tank).

[Darren69]

What exactly causes the problem. Is it that the fuel mixture softens the plastic and then the pressure built from heat expands the tank? Or is it some sort of chemical reaction which expands the tank?

[ercasa]

jerry

have you got any pics of this? they should still be in showroom then...

[Dirty]

What exactly causes the problem. Is it that the fuel mixture softens the plastic and then the pressure built from heat expands the tank? Or is it some sort of chemical reaction which expands the tank?

Ethanol is a solvent so I'd guess that is correct, it attacks and softens the plastic. Hence the damage it can do to seals in older bikes.

It also attracts water (hydroscopic?) hence the rust in steel tanks.

I think though both problems are mainly caused by sitting fuel rather than a busy bike that is constantly drinking and topping up.

[Mr Gazza]

It also attracts water (hydroscopic?) hence the rust in steel tanks.


The term is Hygroscopic...:biggrin:

[Dirty]

The term is Hygroscopic...:biggrin:

I knew it was something like that. Thanks for googling it for me :mand:

[jerry]

Sorry no pics and im now in another part of thailand , I may get to another showroom on friday and see what they have .

Alisons 695 in brighton is 6 years old and the tank had swollen by 15mm , Rays sport classic swelled up after only 3 years in hastings ,but he did get a new tank from Ducati but he had to engage a lawyer . he sold the bike and bought a speed triple .

[Gilps]

Someone borrowed my almost new garden strimmer and returned it with a 2 stroke mix they had made up with some petrol of their purchase. I always use super unleaded in all my garden machinery but I suspect that they hadn't. We used some of the fuel and left it with half a tank full. When I tried to start it after it being laid up for a month, it just would run on full revs. When i decided to tip out the old fuel and put in fresh I found the fuel filter had become detached from the fuel line in the tank. On closer inspection the fuel line is totally knackered. It just break up when squeezed. It has lost all elasticity. I have had to buy a new tank as the lines come as part of the assembly. I don't know just yet what other damage has been done but I'm hoping that it hasn't perished the rubbers inside the carb. This is typical of the kind of damage that ethanol does.