Service quote opinions / sense check

[turbohobbit]

Guys,

I’ve just called ProTwins for a quote for a service for my bike. It’s done 6,000 miles rather than the magic 7,500 and is 2 years old in September, so they are recommending doing the valve clearance check and replacement cam belt now rather than in a few months time (which will cost more then as the bike will be in bits now anyway). On top of that, I’ve obliterated my front brakes to the extent that I have started to plough into the discs, so that’s replacement pads AND discs.

The whole sorry list is:

Pads: £65
Brake clean: £65
Small service, valve check, and new cam belt: £450
Brake discs: £400

Total: ~£1000

Is that about right or am I getting a bit fleeced? Sounds like a lot of money for what I originally thought was going to be a straightforward service.

[Black Bob]

I had to have new discs on my naughtily bike several years ago and they're not cheap, so the 400 quid doesn't surprise me too much.

I think "fleeced" is putting it a bit strongly. PT would soon go out of business if they went round "fleecing" people.

Not cheap, this motorcycling lark, is it?

What other quotes have you had?

[turbohobbit]

Ok, maybe fleeced is harsh. It was the best I could come up with at the time.

This is the only quote so far. I wanted to go back to PT as they did a good job after my stack, but I wanted to see where the land lay (hence the post) as I have no frame of reference.

[Funkatronic]

they are main dealers so the prices are a little high but not excessively so for the south east

for £450 i would expect full service inc belts and valve clearances adjusted (not just checked),

what are they doing for the £65 brake clean? removing and stripping and re-building each calliper ?

you could prob save 15-20 on the pads and £50-100 on rotors if you shop around and buy aftermarket. even more if you buy 2nd hand rotors

[turbohobbit]

what are they doing for the £65 brake clean? removing and stripping and re-building each calliper ?

Yup, I believe so.

[Black Bob]

By the way, 500 quid is about right for the 7.5k service it seems :

http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=46396

And I'll be able to confirm this myself before too long as mine has just gone to that very place for that very thing. The belts are about 40 quid each I think, and I'm having those changed even though they're only a year old, as they have to come off anyway. So my bill will be bigger, I'm sure.

I really rate ProTwins. Just wish they had a loan bike or two!

[pompone]

I'm with Funkatronic on this, when you get shims checked and adjusted you get charged for new ones but rarely (if ever) get the old one back. With rotors get some pre loved ones and you'll cut a couple of hundred quid off your bill. Also get your own pads.

[turbohobbit]

Sorry, I'm being properly dense here... Is the suggestion that I present PT with the kit to fit, or I do the fitting myself? I'm not sure I trust myself to play with brakes...

[wezrvf]

Does seem like a killer the 7.5 service but that does seem steep. Getting the discs at the same time is the killer really isn't it. Mine is going in for its two year service next week but got that thrown in when I bought the bike so not worried plus it only has 5k on it. I have asked them to check valves and shims which they said they would. So hopefully that should set me up for another year of free riding. Not looking forward to the next one though !!

[turbohobbit]

Yup, the discs are the bummer. £200 each, but I've found some on the Flea for £60 each, hence my last (densish) question.

The killing joke is, the bike is 2 years old in September but actually sat in the dealers for 9 months having had only 214 miles put on it, so theoretically the 2 years riding isn't really up until this time next year. Does the belt actually need doing in that case? I'm not so sure. Still, I'm not an expert in this area by along chalk!

[mart64]

Recently had my S2R serviced at Pro Twins £512 for 6k service plus a few other minor things , can't fault them so will be going back again :thumbsup:
The free advice they give is refreshing and worth while, I have pc3 fitted they checked the fueling was correct and set up right all included with service.

[Black Bob]

The killing joke is, the bike is 2 years old in September but actually sat in the dealers for 9 months having had only 214 miles put on it, so theoretically the 2 years riding isn't really up until this time next year. Does the belt actually need doing in that case? I'm not so sure. Still, I'm not an expert in this area by along chalk!

Don't skimp on the belts - the only advice you'll get here is to change them if in any doubt. The 2 year thing is more to do with the age than the mileage and if it has sat doing nothing for that length of time it's arguably worse for the belts.

Change 'em.

[wezrvf]

Defo worth getting them checked but I was told by my ducati dealer certainly get them changed at the right time under warranty but once out of warranty he has seen them last a lot longer than two years so just play it by ear once out of warranty.

I will be interested to see mine after 2 years compared to a new one. Is there any signs of wear or is it all internal in the rubber ???

[Saint aka ML]

I have 19y old discs on my m900 still good.

My 2002 with 17k has also stock discs so my question is what did you do to kill yours in such low mileage/time?

[turbohobbit]

I have 19y old discs on my m900 still good.

My 2002 with 17k has also stock discs so my question is what did you do to kill yours in such low mileage/time?

Honestly?

I rode like a twat.

I ride in a lot of heavy / slow moving traffic on my commute to and from work every day, and I have developed the REALLY bad habit of riding the front brake and clutch instead of balancing the back brake with the clutch. Net result is I've chewed through my pads in short order, and they have now started chewing through the discs. Needless to say, it's a habit I'm sorely trying to break (and I'll be checking my pads more often too...).

[utopia]

Just a thought....how badly have you "ploughed" the discs ?
Is there any chance at all that they're still actually usable ?
They might look visibly marked but if you're lucky it may still just be surface scratches which don't actually affect braking performance very much.
I'm wondering if you could just try new pads to start with (fitted yourself) and see how they work, before shelling out on new discs.
What's to lose ?

Similarly, belt changes are pretty easy on a 2-valve motor.
You could save there by doing those yourself too.
....and leave the valve clearances until their scheduled check at 7,500.
You could even consider checking those yourself too, as checking alone is reasonably straightforward ....its the subsequent adjustment which is more tricky, but you may find that none is needed......mine were ok at that mileage on my 750.
Suddenly you're saving the best part of £800.

I guess that the problem with braking in heavy traffic is that your feet might not get chance to even get on the footpegs between stops, making the front brakes easier to get to.
A conscious effort to ride feet-up as soon as possible may help.
To be honest, the bike will probably feel more stable if you use the rear brake to balance the throttle and steady the bike rather than the fronts, which in turn makes feet-up riding easier.
Perhaps a more relaxed throttle technique will reduce the need for braking too.
Or, thinking slightly outside the box, how about fitting a thumb operated rear brake control (with the money you might save on the discs) ? ....I don't speak from experience here though and probably wouldn't do it myself, preferring to modify my braking habits instead.

[turbohobbit]

All good points, thanks Utopia. The discs are ploughed to the extent that they aren't smooth. I can feel (and see) ridging when I run my finger over the surface of the disc. It's smooth rather than sharp ridging, a bit like a raised pattern on a dinner plate, but it's definitely ridged.

How difficult is it to change pads and belt? I presume it's the work of a track stand, the correct tools, and a mach-savvy mate?

Braking: Yeah, it's partly the footpeg thing, and partly just natural reaction, especially when I'm filtering a fair bit through faster moving traffic. If the traffic is flowing at about 20-25mph, so slow enough to be able to filter but fast enough to get up a reasonable lick, I do find myself covering (and riding) the front brake rather than the back. A pretty bad habit to be honest. I'm trying to scold myself whenever I notice myself doing it, though!

[jonzi]

...How difficult is it to change pads and belt? ...

Brakes (http://www.motorcyclenews.com/mcn/products/productsresults/parts-accessories/2006/november/nov2406-how-to-upgrade-your-brake-pads/)

Belts (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vzPZ84ZRjU)


I haven't watched the videos.

But you can do the brake pads on the side stand.

Very easy job.

[simonb]

Putting new pads on worn /scored discs is rarely a good idea. Can discs be skimmed? Ok to do it on cars if not too badly scored?

[wezrvf]

So how easy is it to check the valve clearance? obviously adjusting is another matter but is there any harm that can be had by checking yourself? Also, please can someone explain the difference between the valve check and shims? are they the same job ?

Cheers

[Dirty]

Also, please can someone explain the difference between the valve check and shims? are they the same job ?

Cheers

I believe it's the same thing. You check the valve clearances then if any adjustment is needed you do it by adding or removing shims.

[utopia]

Putting new pads on worn /scored discs is rarely a good idea. Can discs be skimmed? Ok to do it on cars if not too badly scored?

As a general rule that's true, but the proof of the pudding an' all that......
If new pads are needed anyway, why not see how they work with the old discs before shelling out £400 on an assumption.
You'd know pretty soon if the brakes were useless or not and could then promptly change the discs before the pads had bedded in to the old ones.

I would imagine that skimming a floating, two-part disc is too complicated to be economical.

[Darren69]

I'm actually surprised that a floating disc can get so hot during normal use that it would actually warp?

[turbohobbit]

Thanks for all the comments and advice guys. I spoke to ProTwins today and they are going to order the rotors in (they don't carry them as stock) and the bike is provisionally booked in for the end of the month. They wanted for me to pay for the rotors up front but I didn't have my wallet with me when they called so I said that I'd call them tomorrow. I am a bit surprised (and concerned?) about them wanting me to pay up front - it feels like I am committing to the work even if it transpires that it's not really needed. I'll make sure they understand that they'll be refunding me the money if they don't need to use the rotors.

[Albie]

I had my warped discs changed on my 1100S under warranty by ducati ashford when they noticed them at nearly aged 2 years old. You may wish to ask them about them prior to getting charged.

[turbohobbit]

I had my warped discs changed on my 1100S under warranty by ducati ashford when they noticed them at nearly aged 2 years old. You may wish to ask them about them prior to getting charged.

Good point, I will do. Although I wouldn't be surprised if they say it won't be covered as I was the one why caused the damage (wear and tear. Literally).

[Dirty]

What Albie said

Plus if they want you to pay for the discs up front I think that means you've bought em, regardless, otherwise why would they ask?

[turbohobbit]

Agreed. But isn't it a bit odd that they're charging me £400 for parts before they've even confirmed that I need them? Or am I being naive?

[Dirty]

To me it's a bit odd that a main dealer wants payment up front full stop. I can understand a small independent doing that but then again my mate runs a small garage and anything he gets from the main dealer is sale or return.

[turbohobbit]

To me it's a bit odd that a main dealer wants payment up front full stop. I can understand a small independent doing that but then again my mate runs a small garage and anything he gets from the main dealer is sale or return.

I'm of a similar opinion to be honest. Thinking I may call Ducati ProTeam at lunch and get their opinion.

[SunEye]

I would suggest calling Pete at Pro Twins and having a chat to explain that paying for parts upfront seems a bit unusual. They are basing the need to replace the discs on your opinion of the condition of the discs. I am sure if you took it for the service and let them decide then the only downside would be that you would have to wait for the discs to be delivered so your bike might be there for a few days, but you wouldn't be paying upfront for them.

[turbohobbit]

I would suggest calling Pete at Pro Twins and having a chat to explain that paying for parts upfront seems a bit unusual. They are basing the need to replace the discs on your opinion of the condition of the discs. I am sure if you took it for the service and let them decide then the only downside would be that you would have to wait for the discs to be delivered so your bike might be there for a few days, but you wouldn't be paying upfront for them.

Yeah, there is that. Pete is out today but wanted me to leave my card details. I'll instead call him tomorrow for a full on natter. Don't get me wrong, I like the guys and want to give them my business, but only business that is needed and without funding up front!

[popelli]

Agreed. But isn't it a bit odd that they're charging me £400 for parts before they've even confirmed that I need them? Or am I being naive?


Is that about right or am I getting a bit fleeced? Sounds like a lot of money for what I originally thought was going to be a straightforward service.

you are not being a bit fleeced

you are being totally fleeced

find an honest independent shop

if you really do need disc rotors check out various companies that advertise in the comic at a fraction of those prices

[Rascall]

I would do as much as possible myself and save £400 - £500, the thought of paying a main dealer makes my blood run cold

Aftermarket disks, pads and a can of brake cleaner. 3 hours work & parts £350.00

An oil/filter change, new belts and check the valves 4 hours work & parts £150.00 (good videos for all of these on Youtube) then get an independent to re shim the valves only if required.

I suppose it depends how confident you are with spanners and how much your free time is worth.

Russell

[Black Bob]

you are not being a bit fleeced

you are being totally fleeced

find an honest independent shop



Careful.....

[utopia]

Rascall puts it pretty well.
Though personally, I'd still be inclined to try new pads on the old discs before shelling out on new ones, just to make certain that it really was bust before such an expensive fix.

On the valve clearances, the Ducatitech videos are equally good on this too...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIj3nSJGPZw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WQY1MRlmH4
Their suggested method of checking the closing clearances via the opening shim makes things a lot simpler.
I was a little daunted the first time I did it, but its not as hard as you might think and you can't really mess anything up unless any shims actually need changing, which they often don't.
Doing it yourself is also great if the bike is a long-term keeper as you can build up a record of the changing state of the clearances over a long period and thus be able to predict when adjustment is likely to be needed, as well as just getting to know the bike that much better.
Not worth the risk if you're ham fisted, but any half-competent mechanic should have no trouble checking the clearances.
I'd recommend leaving shim-changing itself to the experts though, unless you're particularly nifty. Even then, I'd have my worries and would want to recheck after a few miles.
My bike has just clicked 13,000 miles and has never seen a dealer's workshop in its adult life. Up to now I've had to change just one closing shim, and then only because I was being fussy......and I know which one is likely to need adjustment next and I already have the shim.

[turbohobbit]

Thanks loads guys. I really appreciate all of this input. I really need a dealer to do this upcoming service because the bike is still under warranty (until September) and I want to keep the service history intact until at least then as I'm doing ~8k a year on it so anything could happen...

After that, though, I'm sorely tempted to start getting my hands dirty. I'm a total novice, but I guess you only learn by doing.

[turbohobbit]

Right, I've spoken to PT and we've shelved the discs for now, so she's booked in for the £450 service and we'll take the discs as they come. I've told them I'd like to ride out and see how new pads + old discs go, but they have intimated that if they deem that the discs actually need replacing, replaced they will be. We'll see.

[manwithredbike]

Do the warranty conditions stipulate that a dealer must service it? if so, i see your point, otherwise, i would go to an independent or diy it. Dealers (car included) are ridiculously over priced and will bog the arm in at every opportunity.
I agree with utopia, try the pads on their own, you've only got the price of a quickly worn pair of pads to lose. The discs aren't warped are they? I didn't pick that up from your post.

[turbohobbit]

Nope, not warped. The best way to describe it is that they are not knife-smooth on the surface when you run your thumb across it but rather smoothly ridged, a bit like running your thumb across a patterned glazed dinner plate.

[Unit 18]

They will have a minimum thickness stamped on them, you will need a micrometer to check this in several places, if you have one and they are still above the minimum and not too badly scored they should be usable, with care initially as the pads will have to bed in and will not be as effective.
If they are on or below the minimum or excessively scored you will need replacements.

[turbohobbit]

Excellent info, thanks Unit!

BTW, I'll me contacting you in the future for other work...

[Dirty]

Technically and legally you don't need to use a main dealer to stay within warranty (cars 100%, bikes may be different but I doubt it). As long as the work is done correctly as per schedule then the company cannot refuse the warranty.

Of course there is bound to be a 'conversation' when you rock up demanding warranty cover without official stamps in the book :)

[utopia]

Just spotted these.....
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ducati-brembo-disc-x2-monster-320mm-diameter-/281314720823?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276
Dunno whether they're suitable fitment for your bike or not tbh, but I'm guessing that they would be.
And of course there is always some uncertainty in buying secondhand discs, but these sound ok.

[Darren69]

Just spotted these.....
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ducati-brembo-disc-x2-monster-320mm-diameter-/281314720823?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276
Dunno whether they're suitable fitment for your bike or not tbh, but I'm guessing that they would be.
And of course there is always some uncertainty in buying secondhand discs, but these sound ok.

Same here, these are early type:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ducati-Monster-748-916-998-Etc-Front-Discs-320mm-All-Models-Aprillia-Cagiva-/201076067110?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item2ed1114b26

[turbohobbit]

Evening all, just wanted to update y'all on this thread. Pete and the chaps at ProTwins serviced my bike a couple of weeks ago and decided that the discs didn't need immediate replacement, although I was advised to keep an eye on them and they may been attention if they didn't clean up with the new pads. Total cost for the service including cam belt change and valve clearance check: £550.

I'm still a little uncomfortable with the initial request to stump up for the discs before the guys had even clapped eyes on the bike, but it's all water under the bridge. Job done, time to move on.