No more air-cooled Monsters?

[bigredduke]

I was passing Ducati Leeds today so I popped in to take a look at the Monster 1200. I had a sit on it & the riding position seems to have more in common with the Diavel than my 1100 Evo.

I got chatting to one of the sales chappies & he reckons that there will only be the 1200 Monster & an 821 (engine from Hyper-retard) in the Monster line-up in future. Something to do with meeting EU emissions apparently, although why an air-cooled engine can't achieve this I don't know. Can someone explain?

[DrD]

Ducati cannot be arsed!
BMW twins (including the very new 90th Anniversary range) are air cooled

[Saint aka ML]

DrD is right. Last few years Ducati is more hang-up in the "future" then "now" and definitely ignore the "past".

Bad move as the past has made them what they are today. Well were yesterday as today there is nothing left, trellis bye, dry clutch bye, 2V air-cooled that saved them bye, sport bikes designed for track with indicators glued on bye (well more then japs mostly did), stupidly grunt-y engines at low/mid range bye there is more bye then hello.

[Dirty]

I don't mind water cooled, I just don't like ugly and messy.

[jarv]

I think that part of getting it through is also to do with overall noise generated - and water cooled engines are quieter. (?)

[utopia]

......... water cooled engines are quieter. (?)

Yes, I've heard that said a few times, but I've never really understood how.
Surely the exhaust noise is the critical factor, and I can't see that being much different.
If its about less mechanical noise, then who the xxxx can hear that (over the exhaust) anyway ?

I will mourn the passing of the aircooled motor.
One more step in pursuit of the mistaken notion that stuff has to be complicated in order to work well.

I like aircooled AND watercooled monsters, but I can't help thinking that by overlooking the "simplicity" element of the original monster concept, Ducati are closing off an avenue which was crucial to the company's survival and remains an important part of their DNA..... as well as leaving a gap in the market which others will quickly fill.

[Cobra88]

I think it's the drive by noise test that air cooled Ducati's have problems with and emissions.

prob why they now all seem to have a wet clutch too.

I prefer my evo to the new 1200 so I'm staying air cooled :)

Rick

[pompone]

Every 6 months this story comes back.. Even if it was true such a legislation was to be enforced they'll just put big cans on and run them lean at low rpm. Any current Ducati with a stock can is dead quiet anyway..

[Dukedesmo]

Something to do with meeting EU emissions apparently, although why an air-cooled engine can't achieve this I don't know. Can someone explain?

Water cooled engines have better heat management, try to tune an air-cooled engine and one of the biggest problems you will face is heat. Water-cooled engines are able to keep the running temperature much more stable, don't overheat and also warm-up faster, meaning they can be made with closer tolerances so that everything is more efficient - more power, less fuel, less noise, less emissions.

From a purely mechanical point of view a water-cooled engine is superior in every respect. We may mourn the loss of 'character' of the 2v air-cooled engine but the modern water-cooled replacement will be faster, more fuel efficient, more reliable and make less noise (until we make it make more noise :biggrin: ).

Look at the cars of today compared to those of 20 or more years ago - make much more power yet you can barely hear them running and are much more fuel efficient.

The times are changing and it's our duty to keep the old'uns running as long, and as loudly, as possible.

To 'quote' George Orwell; 'two valves good, four valves bad'...

[slob]

Good ol' Desmo Farm, some engines are more equal than others

[utopia]

We may mourn the loss of 'character' of the 2v air-cooled engine but the modern water-cooled replacement will be faster, more fuel efficient, more reliable and make less noise.
Look at the cars of today compared to those of 20 or more years ago - make much more power yet you can barely hear them running and are much more fuel efficient.



But then again.....

Faster ? ......fit a bigger aircooled motor if more speed really is needed.
More fuel efficient ? .....not a lot more than my 50mpg plus 750, I'll bet.
More reliable ? ....until one of the multitude of sensors or control modules goes AWOL, possibly costing a fortune to repair.
Less noise ? ....I'm still not convinced.......and possibly much of the noise reduction in modern cars is down to soundproofing matting under the bonnet etc.

The times are undoubtedly changing, and this is generally a good thing, but its important to realise that just because something is new it isn't necessarily better.
I'm convinced that modern development often has more to do with marketing than with actual technical improvements.

And "more" or "bigger" doesn't necessarily mean "better".
Take haemorrhoids for instance. :rolleyes:

[Dukedesmo]

And "more" or "bigger" doesn't necessarily mean "better".
Take haemorrhoids for instance. :rolleyes:


:eek: I'd rather not thanks...

[DrD]

According to this (http://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/news/2012/2014/march/ducati-scrambler-spied/#.UzGZVFe9xFM/?utm_source=twfb&utm_medium=social&utm_content=ducatiscrambler&utm_campaign=bikesocial), the scrambler is air cooled

[bigredduke]

According to this (http://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/news/2012/2014/march/ducati-scrambler-spied/#.UzGZVFe9xFM/?utm_source=twfb&utm_medium=social&utm_content=ducatiscrambler&utm_campaign=bikesocial), the scrambler is air cooled

Very interesting. Perhaps a Monster Scrambler will be available.

From the same website, it would seem to confirm the story about the 821 Monster:
http://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/news/2012/2014/march/ducati-821-monster-spied/#.UzHCjfl_t8E

[bigredduke]

Every 6 months this story comes back.. Even if it was true such a legislation was to be enforced they'll just put big cans on and run them lean at low rpm. Any current Ducati with a stock can is dead quiet anyway..

Not sure I agree with the last statement - my Evo has stock cans & makes a lovely noise :thumbsup:

[Martin Duke]

Every 6 months this story comes back.. Even if it was true such a legislation was to be enforced they'll just put big cans on and run them lean at low rpm. Any current Ducati with a stock can is dead quiet anyway..

Not so sure - I thought that the Panigale I heard with stock exhaust was quite noisy! :biggrin:

[pompone]

Static noise limit-depending on manufacturer . Most Ducati are 88 with newer being 80 as per EU law. Then you have a ride by in 3rd at 30 and that can't exceed I think 90. Fruity exhaust is one thing, over 90db another..

[Dfran8]

Do you really think the new bike is less noisy?
I asure you is not.

I've had a Diavel and a Panigale (both very gorgeusly noisy). I promise you the 1200 isn't any less. It sound is awesome!

[Dirty]

Do you really think the new bike is less noisy?
I asure you is not.

I've had a Diavel and a Panigale (both very gorgeusly noisy). I promise you the 1200 isn't any less. It sound is awesome!

By law they should all be about the same, 80Db as max says, it's EU political correctness gone mad I tell you! :bunny:

[pompone]

Blimey I didn't mean to offend anyone by inferring their bikes are not noisy, just not as loud as say, a T8 out of the factory! 80 Db is 80 Db whichever way you look at it and is NOT quiet. http://www.industrialnoisecontrol.com/comparative-noise-examples.htm

[bigredduke]

Blimey I didn't mean to offend anyone by inferring their bikes are not noisy, just not as loud as say, a T8 out of the factory! 80 Db is 80 Db whichever way you look at it and is NOT quiet. http://www.industrialnoisecontrol.com/comparative-noise-examples.htm

Absolutely none taken. What you seem to be saying is that Ducati have managed to 'tune' the exhaust note to stay below the test limits at the prescribed DB levels but still sound like a Ducati outside the test limits?

[bigredduke]

Water cooled engines have better heat management, try to tune an air-cooled engine and one of the biggest problems you will face is heat. Water-cooled engines are able to keep the running temperature much more stable, don't overheat and also warm-up faster, meaning they can be made with closer tolerances so that everything is more efficient - more power, less fuel, less noise, less emissions.

From a purely mechanical point of view a water-cooled engine is superior in every respect. We may mourn the loss of 'character' of the 2v air-cooled engine but the modern water-cooled replacement will be faster, more fuel efficient, more reliable and make less noise (until we make it make more noise :biggrin: ).

Look at the cars of today compared to those of 20 or more years ago - make much more power yet you can barely hear them running and are much more fuel efficient.

The times are changing and it's our duty to keep the old'uns running as long, and as loudly, as possible.

To 'quote' George Orwell; 'two valves good, four valves bad'...

I have had 2 water-cooled Ducati's (both 996 desmoquattro engines) and yes, they warmed up much quicker than either of my now air-cooled bikes. I suppose that the quicker an engine gets to operating temperature the less fuel it uses & therefore fewer emissions.

The irony of this perhaps, is that statistically most journeys by car (with water-cooled engines) are short & the engine doesn't get to operating temp. anyway. You only have to observe the water dripping from car exhausts in morning traffic to see that.

Bearing in mind that powered two-wheelers are a very small minority on the road (in the UK anyway) you would think they would be exempt from such legislation.

[Dfran8]

No offence at all!

But I still think everyone who tries the new bike will get surprise (in a good way).
I took a video of the bike sound but don´t know how to post it. :(

[SunEye]

It is possible for air cooled bikes to meet current and near future emissions and noise regulations. Honda managed it with the new CB1100 that they released last year. However maybe it's harder to do with a Ducati L twin.

Looking at it from a business perspective and a company trying to make a profit. If it's going to take a lot of work to try to get an air cooled engine to meet future regulations and you already have a couple of liquid cooled engines that you could use that will meet the regulations it is not a particularly difficult decision to make. Albeit a sad one for those who feel that the heart of a Monster is an air cooled engine.

[utopia]

Another thing that I don't really understand......
Why are injected aircooled engines said to create more emissions than watercooled ones ?
Ok, I can see that carbs give less accurate control over the fuelling spectrum and therefore create more emissions, but surely those from an injected, aircooled motor cannot be significantly different to its watercooled equivalent.

I'm convinced that there is far more to all this than meets the eye.
Overzealous, knee-jerk reactions by environmental extremists, coupled with an inbuilt market demand for ever more "technicality" (even if it serves no useful purpose) are top of my list of suspects.

As an aside on the subject of mechanical noise.....
Pooh came round to my house yesterday to borrow some kit to swap a worn sprocket.
I heard him arriving when he was a couple of streets away, but it wasn't the exhaust note that I first noticed......it was the rattle from his dry clutch.

[jerry]

New Monster 821 spy photos on visordown today

[farl]

http://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/news/2012/2014/march/ducati-scrambler-spied/#.UzMM7tz8rwo

Looks like the Scrambler will be air cooled..

[neilo]

I love my Evo, but if I had to move on, that BMW NineT is looking like a pretty good contender... Yep, I'm a fan of keeping things simple...

[Albie]

http://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/news/2012/2014/march/ducati-scrambler-spied/#.UzMM7tz8rwo

Looks like the Scrambler will be air cooled..

Scrambler. If that's what they think. Yes I know its a bitsa mock up but sits like a chopper. I hope they put high side level cans as wouldn't climb over a kerb like that. £11.000 for a bike like that. No no no. Keep my proper scrambler for sure

[bigredduke]

Scrambler. If that's what they think. Yes I know its a bitsa mock up but sits like a chopper. I hope they put high side level cans as wouldn't climb over a kerb like that. £11.000 for a bike like that. No no no. Keep my proper scrambler for sure

Agreed. You certainly wouldn't use it for green laning. That said, how many Range Rovers actually venture off-road (unless you count mounting the pavement) and look how many of those you see every day.

[Dirty]

Agreed. You certainly wouldn't use it for green laning. That said, how many Range Rovers actually venture off-road (unless you count mounting the pavement) and look how many of those you see every day.

And how many superbikes see a race track?

[bigredduke]

And how many superbikes see a race track?

Very good point:flag:

[Bonzo]

I love my Evo, but if I had to move on, that BMW NineT is looking like a pretty good contender... Yep, I'm a fan of keeping things simple...

Ah! I was just about to type these exact words.

Great minds eh Neilo? :biggrin:

[neilo]

Ah! I was just about to type these exact words.

Great minds eh Neilo? :biggrin:

:D

~100bhp coupled with ~100Nm of torque is all I want/need...after that, looks start counting more and more...

[Saint aka ML]

:D

~100bhp coupled with ~100Nm of torque is all I want/need...after that, looks start counting more and more...

I like the 100/100 figure I would have to say it is best figure in the world as long as we are talking rwbhp.

I always felt like 100 rwbhp on road is plenty enough but there is never enough torque.