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View Full Version : Ethanol - Should I be worried


Dirty
15-10-2013, 10:52 PM
Read an article in Motorcycle Monthly today about ethanol in fuel and came away with the impression that my bike is slowly being eaten away from inside by this evil insidious green planet friendly bio fuel! Is it just hype? It suggested 5 things to do at the end which didn't really put my mind at rest. It included drain it, ride it and buy good fuel!

http://www.motorcyclemonthly.co.uk/Content/read-motor-cycle-monthly-on-line

slob
15-10-2013, 11:18 PM
I think so, I avoid E90 at all costs.
It's also a complete con
http://www.actionaid.org.uk/food-not-fuel/the-problem-with-biofuels

DrD
15-10-2013, 11:33 PM
Not hype - it causes the tank on certain bikes to expand too!
and as pointed out skews the world economy and people's food supply in the proces

Flip
15-10-2013, 11:35 PM
As I understand it only E10 is sold in the UK at the moment- that being a 10% mix of added Ethanol?

I know in the States and South America they have E85 and E90 available at the pumps as a lot of the drag racers (that's motor vehicles not men in women's clothing)use it as it is actually a higher octane rating the regular petrol.

Aside from the obvious and well documented corrosive problems this is having on vehicles not specifically designed to use it, it also has an effect on the carburation in that the more Ethanol in the fuel the leaner the burn.

Oh and if you have ever wondered why the nice MoT tester wants a look inside your fuel cap these days that'll be the Ethanol- he's checking the sealing rubber isn't getting eaten away by it.

As Dr D says regarding fuel tanks (look out all you Monster Dark riders) it's causing no end of problems in the racing world with the frequent use of fibreglass and composite fuel tanks. Lots of the classic racers (myself included) have had to go the aluminium route to avoid problems.

This is a good informative read on the effects etc.

http://www.groups.tr-register.co.uk/wessex/ethanol-update.html

DrD
15-10-2013, 11:48 PM
Most current RON95 is 5% Ethanol; some current RON97 is 0% Ethanol (eg Esso Super unleaded)
E10 has been put back, and no obligation that ALL fuel should be E10.
All pumps at petrol stations should be marked E0, E5, E10.

DrD
15-10-2013, 11:58 PM
If you want the DofT perspective : http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20111005175604/http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/qinetiq-10-02471-assessing-fuel-system-compatability-with-bio-ethanol-and-risk-of-carburettor-icing/bioethanolstudyreport.pdf
MAg in Yorkshire has really useful site: http://www.righttoride.eu/?p=10457

slob
16-10-2013, 07:22 AM
I may have got my E10 and E90 mixed up there, whichever it is it's a clearly different choice at many pumps in Europe

chris yeatman
16-10-2013, 07:41 AM
so as i mainly use shell opitimax fuel high octane what E numbers is that likely to have in it?

DrD
16-10-2013, 08:09 AM
The Shell RON97 is thought to be E5. The BP, Esso and Total are E0

Dave G
16-10-2013, 09:15 AM
This has been well documented in the US, avoid the E10 stuff, especially if you have a plastic tank as it will deform this eventually.

pompone
16-10-2013, 10:00 AM
You should be worried, very worried :D :D :D but in all honesty I think the ethanol is the least of worries in your case.. ;)

jonzi
16-10-2013, 10:39 AM
You should be worried, very worried :D :D :D but in all honesty I think the ethanol is the least of worries in your case.. ;)


http://gb.fotolibra.com/images/previews/215527-girls-fighting-with-handbags.jpeg

pompone
16-10-2013, 11:35 AM
http://gb.fotolibra.com/images/previews/215527-girls-fighting-with-handbags.jpeg

Says the man that called people old only yesterday ;)

jonzi
16-10-2013, 11:46 AM
Says the man that called people old only yesterday ;)

Yesterday? I remember doing saying it when we went for that ride out, but the old man probably doesn't remember.

Dirty
16-10-2013, 12:24 PM
And I always thought petrol was petrol. Well in fact it is. Aside from the premium brands of course which are slightly different and proprietary. I'll stop filling up at Sainsburys now!

slob
16-10-2013, 12:43 PM
Yesterday? I remember doing saying it when we went for that ride out, but the old man probably doesn't remember.

probably couldn't hear you way back there, you young whippersnapper

DrD
16-10-2013, 04:52 PM
And I always thought petrol was petrol. Well in fact it is. Aside from the premium brands of course which are slightly different and proprietary. I'll stop filling up at Sainsburys now!
Tesco Superunleaded (RON97) is E0...it dont work the way you might think:dizzy:

wezrvf
16-10-2013, 05:01 PM
Being a new monster rider i have a plastic tank and tend to fill up using shell or shell v power.

Not knowing a damn thing about Rons and %'s and E's (not the petrol kind anyway) i have no idea what all this means.

Can we compose a list of the top 5 say safest petrols to use in the UK given a lot of us have plastic tanks these days.

What do you think ???

Darren69
16-10-2013, 05:04 PM
Its not just the tanks, anything plastic or rubber can be damaged by ethanol potentially, so injectors, fuel lines anything

wezrvf
16-10-2013, 05:06 PM
WE NEED A LIST GUYS !!! ;)

Also, a list of ones you must avoid at all cost would be useful !!!

Dirty
16-10-2013, 05:55 PM
Well from what I understand the UK only has 5% ethanol in some fuels. Usually the standard unleaded's which are not proprietary ie Fuel from a standard UL pump in an Esso garage could come from a BP refinery. All depends on geographic location.

The premiums are 'branded' so to speak and from info on this thread

0% Ethanol
Tesco super
BP super
Esso super
Total super

5% Ethanol
Shell Super (optimax)

Europe has some fuel that is 10% ethanol, avoid at all costs!

Mr Gazza
16-10-2013, 06:36 PM
I owned a Triumph Sprint for a little while earlier this year ( I'm over it now).

The owners forum listed quite a few cases of distorted plastic tanks which was blamed on Ethanol. Some cited blistering paint, and others blistering of the actual tank, with the tanks bulging out of shape.
If the tanks were left off the bike full of petrol, somtimes they would not fit back on..!!
Other cases claimed that the handlebars hit the tank on full lock where they did not previously.

One forum "correspondent" mentioned that there had been some trouble in the USA with Ducatis, and that there was a major legal battle going on. I can't remember if it was Ducati taking the petrol companies to court or the owners taking Ducati to court.?

A pal of mine works on farm and garden machinery (Strimmers, mowers and chainsaws ect.). He says that Ethanol is causing lots of problems with the fuel sysyems of the equipment he deals with.
One of the larger manufacterers (can't remember who) is investing huge amounts of money into developing ethanol proof fuel lines and carburetor parts.

BTW.. One thing you can do to protect your plastic tank at least, is use a sealant such as "Slosh" or similar. There are one or two on the market which claim ethanol resistance specifically.

Finally...And this pisses me off..!! There is a bio-fuel plant about 6 miles away from my home run by an outfit called Oarnold...They suck.
Using tractors and trailers of unbelievable size, they thunder down the lanes, straight off the muddy fields, laden with whatever organic matter they can rip off the land, that will grow over night.
They operate round the clock, including in fields next to my house, not caring how much row they make.
On one occasion I had about a 4" thick deposit of polished mud outside my gate, going about 100yds down the road from the tractors coming off the field....This was simply left to erode and wash off by nature...no attempt whatsoever was made to clear it away, not even a "Mud on road" sign.


....And what does the Bio-Fuel get used for..??....Bloody Tractors..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

s4rmark
16-10-2013, 06:53 PM
My streetfighter tank was replaced by ducati because of swelling and distortion . My opinion was that it was caused by ethanol , I now only use bp super .

Dirty
16-10-2013, 07:03 PM
Well from what I understand the UK only has 5% ethanol in some fuels. Usually the standard unleaded's which are not proprietary ie Fuel from a standard UL pump in an Esso garage could come from a BP refinery. All depends on geographic location.

The premiums are 'branded' so to speak and from info on this thread

0% Ethanol
Tesco super
BP super
Esso super
Total super

5% Ethanol
Shell Super (optimax)

Europe has some fuel that is 10% ethanol, avoid at all costs!

Just did a bit of Internet research. Ignore the above! Looks like Total now add ethanol to all their fuels plus whether or not a premium fuel has ethanol added can depend where you are in the country. For some reason ethanol is added to fuels in the SW that are ethanol free elsewhere.

A recent thread on a Merc forum (http://forums.mercedesclub.org.uk/showthread.php?t=116492) provides some interesting stuff re availability. I'll paste some pertinent bits.

ESSO

The majority of unleaded 95 Octane petrol sold in the UK contains 5%
ethanol as required under the Government’s Renewable Transport Fuels
Obligation (RTFO).

There is currently no requirement for renewable fuel (such as ethanol) to
be present in super unleaded (97 grade petrol). Esso super unleaded petrol
(Esso Energy Supreme) is ethanol free (except in Devon, Cornwall, the
Teesside area and Scotland) and we have no current intention to add ethanol
to Esso Energy Supreme in other areas of the UK.

We would therefore advise anyone who has concerns about the presence of
ethanol in petrol to use Esso Energy Supreme – providing they don’t fill up
in Devon or Cornwall, the Teesside area or Scotland.

+

All premium unleaded petrol marketed in the UK by Esso contains an ethanol
content of up to 5% by volume. Our energy Supreme Unleaded is largely
ethanol free with the exception of Scotland, the North eastern corner of
England and the far South West. Most vintage cars are compatible with
ethanol up to 5%, although we are aware of concerns by the vintage car
community. Where ethanol free energy Supreme Unleaded is available,
customers may wish to choose that grade – at least 80% of Esso retailed
energy Supreme Unleaded is ethanol free and will remain so into the

BP

In most regions of the UK our Ultimate Unleaded does not contain any Ethanol at present (South West UK excluded). This may of course change in the future as the specification allows up to 5%.

Our Regular grade gasoline does contain up to 5% bio ethanol in compliance with EN228 gasoline specification allowance in most regions of the UK.

Flip
16-10-2013, 07:45 PM
There is a little twist to the story though ....

Supermarket branded fuels (as I am lead to believe), are able to sell their fuels at such competitive (?) rates because there are less additives in their fuel - which is good for those that use them for racing where pump fuel is the only kind allowed as you actually get a better burn without them but not quite as good as a premium supplier where they add detergents and such to help clean your road bike engine as you ride meaning less build up of carbon inside resulting in less maintenance.

As Darren says it is not just the tanks that can suffer, is almost anything in the fuel line that is not made of metal (fuel filters, hoses and I suspect that the diaphragms in the top of CV carbs) and as I said earlier, that is why during your MoT they now check inside your fuel cap to ensure the seal is o.k.

I know from my Classic racing where I and a lot of other racers use Amal carburettors that they now manufactuer Ethanol safe 'stay up' floats, as previously they were beginning to suffer the early effects of Ethanol related degredation by taking in fuel and hence dropping in the chamber causing no end of running problems.

Dave G
16-10-2013, 09:46 PM
One forum "correspondent" mentioned that there had been some trouble in the USA with Ducatis, and that there was a major legal battle going on. I can't remember if it was Ducati taking the petrol companies to court or the owners taking Ducati to court.?



BTW.. One thing you can do to protect your plastic tank at least, is use a sealant such as "Slosh" or similar. There are one or two on the market which claim ethanol resistance specifically.




there was a 'class action' against Ducati NA in the US over the distortion of the sportclassic tanks, Ducati NA were replacing tanks under warranty but this isn't a proper solution as they just expanded too. There is a treatment made by Caswell that has been effective, though it can be tricky to apply properly.
It has reached a stage where some owners are buying hand made alloy tanks at huge cost to alleviate this issue.
I fully expect Ducati UK to wash their hands of this as it arises, but as the owner of two potentially affected bikes I'll cheerfully declare I will not buy another Ducati if it has a plastic tank.

Mr Gazza
16-10-2013, 10:17 PM
Thanks for filling the gaps there Dave...

I believe that Petseal now do an Ethanol resistant sealer as the original version seems to be suffering from the effects...Not sure if it is any good on plastic/composite tanks though.

Anyway i was glad to get rid of the Triumph and get a Metal bike, but I am still a little worried about my immersed fuel pump.

I think the worst damage comes from relativly long storage periods with Ethanol in the fuel.
I will be taking the precaution of emptying my tank when riding finishes or making sure that it is full of Ethanol free petrol.

wezrvf
16-10-2013, 11:36 PM
Is there anyway of checking at the pump if the petrol you are about o put in/ or not is Ethanol free ???

Dirty
16-10-2013, 11:56 PM
I think the worst damage comes from relativly long storage periods with Ethanol in the fuel.
I will be taking the precaution of emptying my tank when riding finishes or making sure that it is full of Ethanol free petrol.

I believe you are right. Aside from it's affect on plastics and rubber Ethanol is hygroscopic (absorbs/attracts/sucks in water from atmosphere). Left over time it becomes the equivalent of dumping half a cup of water in your fuel tank!

Is there anyway of checking at the pump if the petrol you are about o put in/ or not is Ethanol free ???

Sometimes, but there is currently no legal requirement to do so.

pompone
17-10-2013, 07:25 AM
Be wary of storing the tank completely dry for a long timr as this could easily damage the pump

wezrvf
17-10-2013, 01:59 PM
My bike is likely to be left for weeks on end through the winter. I am planning on starting it up and letting it run for 20 mins every now and then but now i don't know what petrol to leave in it and how much for the best.

utopia
17-10-2013, 02:30 PM
My bike is likely to be left for weeks on end through the winter. I am planning on starting it up and letting it run for 20 mins every now and then but now i don't know what petrol to leave in it and how much for the best.

Don't do that, for lots of reasons, including .......
20mins is far too long for an air-cooled engine to be running without any cooling air flowing over it.
Its also probably not long enough to fully evaporate any internal moisture, which will then turn your oil to emulsion sludge as well as encouraging internal corrosion.

Better to take it out for a longer run, preferably on back roads which are unsalted.
And/or put it on a paddock stand, remove the plugs, engage a gear and turn the engine over by hand via the rear wheel every now and then, to reposition the cambelts and avoid them taking a "set" where they wrap around the pulleys.
Add a small drop of oil down the plug holes to ensure good lubrication of the bores if you're being fussy.

And keep the bike in a shed/garage which is either never heated at all or is constantly heated. Occaisional heating will just increase the likelihood of condensation of airbourne moisture in the tank. Though at least with a plastic tank I guess this won't cause any corrosion.

I'd be inclined to leave a minimal amount of ethanol free fuel in the tank.

wezrvf
17-10-2013, 03:15 PM
Thanks Utopia that all makes sense. Didn't really think about the air cooled thing as i have never had one before however i am sure it would have clicked as i am quite conscious about leaving it running stationary anyway.

I will do all these as well as taking the battery off probably. In terms of moving the wheel is literally just to re position the belts? so a couple of turns should do it ?

Now to find the right petrol..bloody mine field !

DrD
17-10-2013, 06:35 PM
Try Tesco Superunleaded or BP Ultimate
Bit out of date but...
BP Ethanol is added at 5% to unleaded petrol at all sites across the UK. BP Ultimate (super unleaded petrol) does not have Ethanol added, except in the South West of England.

Esso Ethanol is added at 5% to unleaded petrol at most sites in the UK. Esso Super Unleaded petrol does not contain Ethanol, except in the South West of England (Devon & Cornwall)

Shell Shell has repeatedly refused to answer the question. It is therefore an assumption only, that all Shell petrol should be considered to contain 5% Ethanol.

Texaco Ethanol is added at 5% to unleaded petrol. Texaco Super Unleaded petrol does not contain Ethanol.

Total Ethanol is not added to any Total fuel (including standard unleaded petrol). Except in the North West and South East of England.

This apparently (thanks D) should read:
0% Ethanol
Tesco super
BP super
Esso super
Total super

5% Ethanol
Shell Super (optimax)

Mr Gazza
17-10-2013, 07:00 PM
Is there anyway of checking at the pump if the petrol you are about o put in/ or not is Ethanol free ???

You could try asking the girl at the till just as an experiment:chuckle:.

I have tried this a few times, but the usual answer is "What's efanol??"

If you have a regular place where you fill up, it might be worth asking the person who actually orders the petrol for the info....Jeez you can't sell any kind of food without ALL the ingredients on display. Surely we have a right to know what's in the fuel we buy..??

Pep
17-10-2013, 07:27 PM
Hi all

I assume this has been seen before.



This is an extract from my owners manual.(796 20th aniversary)

Warning
The vehicle is only compatible with fuel having
a maximum content of ethanol of 10% (E10).
Using fuel with ethanol content over 10% is
forbidden. Using it could result in severe damage of
the engine and motorcycle components. Using fuel
with ethanol content over 10% will make the
warranty null and void

This isn't looking good!

Martin

Dirty
17-10-2013, 07:51 PM
Bit out of date but...

TOTAL-ly out of date mate :) see my previous post. Seems this ethanol situation is very fast moving but the letters I found on the Merc forum were supposedly from May this year.

Hi all

I assume this has been seen before.



This is an extract from my owners manual.(796 20th aniversary)

Warning
The vehicle is only compatible with fuel having
a maximum content of ethanol of 10% (E10).
Using fuel with ethanol content over 10% is
forbidden. Using it could result in severe damage of
the engine and motorcycle components. Using fuel
with ethanol content over 10% will make the
warranty null and void

This isn't looking good!

Martin

Only if you drive outside of UK. The most you'll find in fuel here is 5% at the moment, likely to rise to 10% at some point. Regardless of what Ducati say i will be choosing ethanol free from now on. I think once you get over a certain % anyway engine characteristics such as timing etc may need changing.

Indycars in the US use ethanol (as do Drag Racers) and one of the properties is that it burns invisibly. I remember seeing a pit crew jump about like mad men for no apparent reason once. Turned out they were on fire, as was the car and driver! Luckily there were a couple of smart people about who recognised an ethanol fire and started throwing water (the prescribed method for tackling ethanol fires, don't throw water on petrol fires!) No one was seriously hurt so I forgave myself for giggling at what I originally thought was bizarre behaviour!

jerry
17-10-2013, 08:01 PM
The latest models with plastic tanks in EU and UK but not USA use PEX plastic which is more resistant to ethanol than the older PA6 nylon ,,, most Ducatis since 2008 except USA Should have PEX tanks and so should be OK ,,, USA has 10% ethanol in all fuel ..most UK fuels have only 5% ethanol ,, best to store bikes with non ethanol fuel if possible .....reason USA stil lforced to use PA6 tanks is that USA enviromantalists have banned PEX as it emits fuel vapours by osmosis but its 100% safe ,

Its not only Ducati who have had issues with plastic tanks KTM,BMW , Apprillia etc have all had issues ,Triumph wisely made a decision to go back to steel after a lot of problems when they tried plastic tanks ,,,,,so did HD ...

a few Ducatis in UK have had the warping tank syndrome but are mostly pre 2008 models with plastic tanks ,

if you have steel tank model you dont have to worry , but remember ethenol will gum up carbs ,cause rust and erode rubber parts eventually on all vehicles

DrD
17-10-2013, 09:39 PM
Updated my list to fit with the Dirty info :thumbsup:
Here is MAG's take on it: This is why: http://www.yorkshire-mag.co.uk/ethanol.html

jerry
17-10-2013, 10:26 PM
New Ducati 899 has a steel tank!!!!!????? and Ducati say its lighter than a plastic tank on on the old 848 model oh and cheaper to manufacture ......gasohol proof too .........so why all the crappy placky tanks ??????

Dirty
17-10-2013, 10:28 PM
New Ducati 899 has a steel tank!!!!!????? and Ducati say its lighter than a plastic tank on on the old 848 model oh and cheaper to manufacture ......gasohol proof too .........so why all the crappy placky tanks ??????

Easier/quicker to produce? I find it hard to believe steel tanks are cheaper?

jerry
17-10-2013, 10:30 PM
Thailand mandatory introduced gasohol 10% in 2008 but last year reintroduced pure benzine alongside due to massive public anger at problems ,, common sense prevailed in the end .. lets hope it does in UK

Dave G
19-10-2013, 12:13 PM
PEX plastic which is more resistant to ethanol than the older PA6 nylon ,,, most Ducatis since 2008.......


More resistant does not mean proofed against.
I wouldn't buy any sort of plastic tanked bike, steel or alloy tanks, or nothing.
I would also like Ducati to assure us it will help when all this starts to affect us but I suspect they'll whistle loudly while sticking their fingers in their ears

jerry
19-10-2013, 05:26 PM
More resistant does not mean proofed against.
I wouldn't buy any sort of plastic tanked bike, steel or alloy tanks, or nothing.
I would also like Ducati to assure us it will help when all this starts to affect us but I suspect they'll whistle loudly while sticking their fingers in their ears

Dave i totally agree Alloy or Steel=GOOD , plastic tanks not proven as being Ethanol proof over long term = BAD

perkles
19-10-2013, 05:39 PM
i just filled up with texaco high octane am i going melt now ?

Dirty
19-10-2013, 10:56 PM
i just filled up with texaco high octane am i going melt now ?

No but I bet you wake up with a killer hangover!