400 Monsters ? What are they like?

[Mr Gazza]

I must confess that I have not paid the 400 Monster very much attention. I have only owned 900's.

But speaking to He11cat and finding that she owns a 400 as well as a 600 has got me wondering what they are like.

One of the best bikes I ever owned (and my first Italian) was a Moto Morini 350 sport, know for some strange reason as a " Three and a Half"....It was brilliant.

I am thinking maybe a 400 Monster is perhaps not so different from the Morini, in which case the little Monster would be a helluva lot of fun.

I don't know how they stack up on paper? I have never heard anyone comment on them.....What are they like?

[Darren69]

they were a Japan only option as I recall, at least the 400ss was so I'm guessing the same for the monster, would be a good learner bike in my experience the 600 is but good too in that respect but a little underpowered but only a little and so I'm guessing the 400 would be even more so esp coming from a 900. Best of the little tiddlers is the 750 imho and could probably be picked up cheaper as the 400 would hold a higher price for its rarity value or maybe take a look at Pantah 500/600 or Cagiva Alluzera

[Dirty]

400 monsters? I have enough taking care of one, image getting 400 of them ready and down the MOT shop :)

[pompone]

There is a reason why they didn't sell in big numbers.. ;)

[He11cat]

Oi!!! Lol...
Well they are a strange beast.
They are revvy and obviously not really quick but for legal speed riding on the road they are fine.
I've done a ten hour ride on mine.
I've nipped over to Welsh border in the middle of the night as well.
I did more miles on my 400 then the 600 in the last 2 years.
It's quirky.
If your a super bike rider your hate it.
But I'm easy going on a bike now I'm getting on a bit :)
If I get somewhere that's fine...
I'm happy.

If your ever passing your more then welcome to take a look at the 400
He's due some work and he needs lowering as he is still loads to tall for me .

I've owned several grey import 400s
They are small but fun !
You have to ride one really to see.
Only gripe I have is could be louder!!!

[He11cat]

They do come up for sale but not often.
I waited 2 years for one to come up.
It was a total abused shed.
It was taken apart tarted up rebuilt.
I couldn't bare to see it in the state it was.

I'd really like a 900 now ..
But I'd not part with the 400.

The 400 SS older style one looks a hoot .

[Sirc]

never owned one in a Monster and really envy Melanie but had one in an SS and they are gorgeous to ride and totally different even compared to the 600. I sold mine only because I would have blown it up sooner rather than later as the temptation to use engine to the max was irresistible. Harder on a clutch than any of the others and suffers from a small flat spot as it retains the 38 mm Mikunis that 600/750/900 do but you hardly notice it and can avoid it via gearchange. Factory 'red' line is 11,000 rpm and with the two into one system that most of them had the sound is intoxicating. Really confidence inspiring when negotiating tighter turns due to engine characteristics. Would buy another in a heartbeat.

[He11cat]

I'm careful with mine ...
I don't rag it.
Il happily ride distances on it but I don't scream about on it.
I want him to last :)

[Mr Gazza]

This is good....I like what i hear.!

As usual the more valid comments come from those who have owned or ridden the model in question.

I hoped you noticed how I sought a comparison to the 350 Moto Morini rather than to a 900 Monster. I think it is fairer to compare a 400cc machine that way than to it's larger siblings.

I know that GT had a Morini. can anyone make a comparison between an M400 and a 31/2 Morini based on experience?

Anyway thanks for joining in folks.

I have fond memories of my Wee Vee but it was very wearing at times regarding the riding position, having clip-ons, as it did....or was it ace bars?

Even a Morini 31/2 Strada would be a small fortune these days so I thought an M400 might be a viable alternative...Maybe not if they are so rare....Still finding the idea very intriuging..

[Sirc]

they are plentiful in Japan and Australia and scanning all the ads makes my mouth water as they are nearly all low mileage and mint condition. Was it that Moto Morini model that was a Cagiva Freccia with a different engine* or have I got the wrong one? I read a road test of * recently and did remind me of the D 400.

[He11cat]

That Moto Morini 3 1/2 is stunning !

[gary tompkins]

400 monster was 14kg heaver but had 5bhp more - 44 verses 39, so I assume performance would be similar. My 350 sport hit just over 100mph flat out, but also managed a staggering 70mpg average. The brakes and suspension were far better on the M400, as would have been the electrics. Morini had was very basic twin shocks and telescopic forks, but frame geometry and handling was spot on. Ignition and charging system was dire to say the least, with typical 80's style naff Italian electrics.

It was a great bike though and still regret flogging mine. Would probably be worth double the £1400 I paid for it in 1987 had I kept it :(

I've seen early 1970's drum brake sports sell for over six grand :eek:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5085/5378107481_842e7dcdb5_z.jpg

[utopia]

This thread got me thinking about the 400 in a new light, and so I got to wondering how much, er .... lighter ... they actually are.
Somewhat surprisingly, according to my manuals for yr2000 models, the 400 weighs the same as the 600. Can this be correct ? Surely at least the single can exhaust must count for some reduction ?
I had been hoping to find a significant weight reduction to go with the buzzy little motor, but sadly not, it seems. Then again, as a project with weight reduction as a guiding theme, it could perhaps still live up to my hopes.
I didn't realise that the 400s revved as high as 11,000. In a lightweight package, that could be quite fun.

Interestingly, according to my info the 750 is only fractionally heavier than the 600/400, while the 900 carries a more significant weight increase. It seems that the 750 is the one which benefits the most with extra horses for little increase in weight.

...smug smiley face....:)

[Sirc]

the 750 whilst not taking the 'truly macho' crown, has always hidden it's light under a bushel as far as i'm concerned. I only rode an M750 briefly but have done many miles on 750SS and E750 and allthough it's hard to quantify as the differences are so subtle, they really are the best allrounders afaic.

[Dave G]

Hmm. Must get my Morini back in one piece this winter.

[pompone]

As usual the more valid comments come from those who have owned or ridden the model in question.


Gazza, I've owned a 350SS as my first Ducati, back in '96 so is a comparable bike. It was slow, underpowered, a dreadful gearbox and not what I want from a Ducati. THe 400 was only sold in Europe as the leftovers of the Jap market. To make sense a Ducati needs a biggish engine. fact. As a matter of fact I've ridden pretty much everything in the Ducati range from early nineties up to now, with some of the earlier stuff too so I do have a formed opinion :rolleyes:
Let's forget rose-tinted glasses, they never work..for exhample I've recently ridden a well-sorted Morini 500 Sport and was a frightening experience. lovely bike but an old bike nonetheless..
But is your money, you want one? go and get one :)

[Sirc]

as you quite rightly said Pompone it's not what you want from a Ducati because as ever, it is 'each to their own'. The 400 to me is just a different riding style, it will do fast (-sh) if you want to but it's the fun of riding it and enjoying the engine regardless of velocity for me* (I still have a 996 and an 851 if chest-beating is required :)) I also like the original Fiat 500 for the same reason* as probably does Gordon Murray despite being associated with mainly fast projectiles.


EDIT oh, and it certainly has nothing to do with 'rose coloured glasses' - the comment that compelled me to reply.

[Dirty]

I also like the original Fiat 500 for the same reason* as probably does Gordon Murray despite being associated with mainly fast projectiles.


.

http://cars.aol.co.uk/2013/08/15/gordon-murray-s-madcap-city-cars-to-go-into-production/

[utopia]

.... To make sense a Ducati needs a biggish engine....

I tend to agree, and certainly that was my expectation before I got my 750 (my first and only ducati), but I was a little surprised to find that my motor is a lot more buzzy than you'd expect from a 4-stroke twin and over time I came to appreciate the combination of big, torquey pistons in a (relatively) high revving package.
At the risk of sounding like I don't know what I'm talking about, I can say that there is something about my motor that reminds me ever so slightly of the 2-strokes that I grew up on.......:confused:
The massively oversquare panigale motor seems to take this characteristic to an even higher level, but for me its just far too powerful for my needs.
This is why the high revving 400 motor intrigues me, though as I said before, I would expect it to need a lightweight chassis to show its true potential.

And while I'm making daft comments, I'll admit that one of the features of the little Morini that didn't seem quite right was the "three and a half" nametag. It just seemed a bit naff and at the time it affected my judgement of the bike far more than something as meaningless as a name should have done.

[pompone]

Three and a half comes from the italian "tre e mezzo", your 750 would be called a "sette e mezzo" rather than a "settecinquanta" more often than not, even thought both are correct ;)

[utopia]

..... your 750 would be called a "sette e mezzo" rather than a "settecinquanta" more often than not, even thought both are correct ;)

There you go.
Settecinquanta sounds much better.
In fact, I might now need some new, cut vinyl name stickers.......;)

[Darren69]

Or more correctly technically 'desmodue settecentocinquanta' :)

[utopia]

....but do they make vinyl stickers that long ???
And where would you put them anyway ?
I guess they'd make a wheel rim pinstripe, but it'd be tempting to get a whole sentence on there, including references to 90 deg, air cooling and carbs.
I don't normally like wheel stripes, but that might be daft enough to work.

On the other hand ...are both versions grammatically correct ?
I'd hate to become like the urban myth, dyslexic biker with "Hells Angles" written on the back of his jacket.

[Dukedesmo]

I'd hate to become like the urban myth, dyslexic biker with "Hells Angles" written on the back of his jacket.

:D Or the dyslexic pimp that bought a warehouse...

[pompone]

....but do they make vinyl stickers that long ???
And where would you put them anyway ?
I guess they'd make a wheel rim pinstripe, but it'd be tempting to get a whole sentence on there, including references to 90 deg, air cooling and carbs.
I don't normally like wheel stripes, but that might be daft enough to work.

On the other hand ...are both versions grammatically correct ?
I'd hate to become like the urban myth, dyslexic biker with "Hells Angles" written on the back of his jacket.

I got some stickers made from this guys, quality is good and price is OK
ebay stickers (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2x-PERSONALISED-MOUNTAIN-BIKE-FRAME-NAME-CYCLE-CYCLING-BIKE-STICKERS-DECALS-/290841259428?pt=UK_SportGoods_CyclAcces_RL&hash=item43b77d6da4)
yes both versions are grammatically correct but as Darren said is more of a technical description than if you were having a conversation with someone. Anyway I challenge you to say Settecentocinquanta Centimetri Cubici.. :D there are plenty of such exhample of lost in translation with Ducati (and Italian brands in general) a bit like when people say Monstro. Wrong. Mostro! And in Italy they call it Monster anyway ;)

[Mr Gazza]

Interesting stuff..If i am honest I expected the M400 to be dismissed out of hand by most folk...Also, the comments about the 750 confirm my desire for one of those.

Nice to see the pic of your Morini GT, thanks for your post.
Mine was a 1975 Three and a half Sport with wire wheels on akront rims and a 4 leading shoe front drum brake. It was capable of stoppies, but it could be grabby sometimes.

I had to replace the strange flywheel magneto type ignition, made by (i think) Ducati Electrotechnica (no relation so i understand).
The new ignition was a later version and worked well. i got an indicated 110mph on the test run..! Not bad for a bog standard 350.

It was increadibly nippy and sure footed as a you might expect from a lightwieght, but the big suprise was the lovely tourquey Gran tourisimo top gear, roll on roll off throttle response, more like what you would expect from an engine at least twice the size.

I bought a Strada seat for it for two up riding and we got 90 with ease.

A pal had a Moto Guzzi Le Mans of the era, and we would ride all day, swapping bikes. There was really not that much difference in performance, just weight...Two bloody brilliant motorbikes.

Arghhhh..! the rose tints are getting a bit tight..:D

But yes, I am with Utopia. A weight shaving M400 project could be a lot of fun..

Will try and find a pgoto of my Morini...wet film in those days..Will have to scan and post.

[Dukedesmo]

I got some stickers made from this guys, quality is good and price is OK
ebay stickers (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2x-PERSONALISED-MOUNTAIN-BIKE-FRAME-NAME-CYCLE-CYCLING-BIKE-STICKERS-DECALS-/290841259428?pt=UK_SportGoods_CyclAcces_RL&hash=item43b77d6da4)
yes both versions are grammatically correct but as Darren said is more of a technical description than if you were having a conversation with someone. Anyway I challenge you to say Settecentocinquanta Centimetri Cubici.. :D there are plenty of such exhample of lost in translation with Ducati (and Italian brands in general) a bit like when people say Monstro. Wrong. Mostro! And in Italy they call it Monster anyway ;)

As an aside I often wondered (before you changed it) if Pomp1 represented Pompone or Pompino... ;)

[pompone]

As an aside I often wondered (before you changed it) if Pomp1 represented Pompone or Pompino... ;)

Now now.. Local produce of Busto Arsizio I'm led to believe ;)

[Mr Gazza]

I've recently ridden a well-sorted Morini 500 Sport and was a frightening experience. lovely bike but an old bike nonetheless..
But is your money, you want one? go and get one :)

Yup...I understand that the 500 was not anything like as good as the 350.
The first ones had a tail fairing a bit like a Kawasaki of the period, which would not win me over at all..But hey, still very collectable.

Just for the record I am not looking to buy an M400, or anything for that matter, but if I were, my money would go on a M750 with carburettors.
What I would really like to buy would be an early 750 GT, but if I could afford one of those perhaps I would just retire instead..!!

So many bikes and only one of me...Ahhh..Nice to dream,,:D

[Darren69]

You just need a longer bike :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_173340&feature=iv&src_vid=DJS2cthIoFg&v=ANwiN2jAa3s

[Mr Gazza]

:chuckle::chuckle: The guy who built that should have retired..:chuckle:

[Dirty]

Probably a bit under powered having only 10 cylinders. You need at least 48!

http://s12.postimg.org/pdudt8665/image.jpg

[He11cat]

My poor little bike :( :(
I was told size does not matter :( :(

[Dukedesmo]

I was told size does not matter :( :(

Me too... :worried:

[Dirty]

Yep, sounds familiar :on:

[pompone]

Me too... :worried:

Yep, sounds familiar :on:

It does. Always. :D

[He11cat]

Here he is .. Looks fine in photos but close up and under inspection :(
Bent frame been in an accident :( but all sorted now.
http://i428.photobucket.com/albums/qq3/helsinkvampire/58BAECBB-C05B-4A6A-B330-0C3B15F9F821-1059-000000E1EBAFB998_zps88d0fb20.jpg
http://i428.photobucket.com/albums/qq3/helsinkvampire/A869B6DD-6FE7-42CD-9E19-2AEBC590D3D2-1042-000000E0655C54CC_zps635b19da.jpg

Now black and yellow
http://i428.photobucket.com/albums/qq3/helsinkvampire/C3BD872B-D120-4F8F-BFD6-05B05899717B-1042-000000E14530B6C9_zps18ce5b81.jpg

He's all sorted.
Neutral switch needs sorting and I have a uncut out seat for him.
Needs lowering more as too high for me :(

[Dirty]

Here he is ..

Very pretty Hellcat. And good to see you displaying your tax disc in the correct position :hail:;)

[Darren69]

Its not how many pistons you have but how big they are :)

[He11cat]

;) I see !!! :)

I was wondering where else I could put my tax disc!
But that can be a whole new thread :)

[gary tompkins]

Nice to see the pic of your Morini GT, thanks for your post.
Mine was a 1975 Three and a half Sport with wire wheels on akront rims and a 4 leading shoe front drum brake. It was capable of stoppies, but it could be grabby sometimes.



That was the style of Morini I lusted after when I bought mine. I sat on a few at the shop (WeeVee's in Croydon) but they were well over my budget back in 1988. I've just uploaded a better photo of mine, as the scanned one I used last night was a bit pants. This was probably very similar to yours - owned by a friend in the Morini club. The right foot gear change made it simple for me to convert. I only needed to move the cable operated rear brake pedal, and reverse the shift pattern to race style. Made it easier to change and brake with right foot more quickly. Left side kickstart lever was a bit of a pain in the arse though. Had to stand off the bike and kick it over with my right leg. I flogged it in 1999 after having done over 50,000 miles on it.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3743/9791737216_62c3753e4e_z.jpg


Another shot of me at Cadwell park on a club trackday
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4086/5058851041_b6e1145d05.jpg

[Darren69]

Liking the race face Gary :)

[Mr Gazza]

That Morini is very nice GT..
I had forgotten all about the left hand kick start and other lovely quirky little things.

Here is the best I can do for a picture at the mo...Sorry, it is literaly a digital photo of an old photo that was taped to the inside of one of my cupboard doors in the workshop.
http://i39.tinypic.com/2v3lvdg.jpg

I think I had the handlebars turned upside down in this shot, in an attempt to get a bit of comfort.
This was a bike with nearly as high a grin factor as a Monster, but it was an intense experience, and was ultimatly too hard on my wrists and back.

[Mr Gazza]

I'm loving the look of your Monster He11cat.:D

I like all the yellow, it works really well.
Like the wavy disc too, and a bit jealous of your Gold forks, mine are silver and they just don't seem right...They need to be Gold.

The engine does look physicaly smaller than the 600+ sizes. It would seem superficially to be quite a different engine to the usual Ducati. Maybe a design in it's own right rather than a sleeved down 600 or somthing.

Looks good and will definatly be more comforable than a Morini Sport.

[He11cat]

The silver forks are the better ones honestly !
It's basically the same asM600 different bore / stroke .
You can't tell looking at it that its not a 600 :)
Feels the same until you ride it :)

[Mr Gazza]

Doh....! You've found me out now.

I don't look at 600s properly either..;)

[He11cat]

It's when you start it up it sounds so different :)
I dare say you'll see me out and about on him :)

[Flip]

Now I know I'm a little bias and I know we all love our Monsters here (of all sizes and methods of cooling).

BUT...... (and this may depend on a couple of things, one being how much you want to spend and the other how physically big you are). If you want a bike that is little but loads of fun have you thought about one of the little singles?

Now I get what Max means by Ducatis' need to be 750cc plus and I agree, as a twin I think they do but mostly (in my eyes) from a historical view going back to the big bevel days of open Dell'Ortos and even more open Conti (non) silencers.

But having owned my little Mach 1 for coming up to two years, I have to say after twenty four races, one Festival of 1000 Bikes and a whole load of track and test days it has been 100% reliable, not used any oil and constantly surprised me by just how punchy that little bevel motor is.

In addition to all that, parts are plentiful, it's unlikely to loose any money and has all the Ducati history anyone could ever want and in my opinion (forget the purists as the race bikes are all modified anyway) one with a slightly modern twist to it would make a cracking road bike.
http://www.duccutters.com/MISCgallery/page5/Ducati-single-racer.jpg

[Mr Gazza]

Just to re-iterate that i am not particulaly looking for another bike, this has turned into more of a sort of Fantasy league...And why not.

Good to see folk giving some of the smaller bikes a good appraisal. It's all too easy to get carried away with the fixation that a bike needs to be at least 900cc to be considered these days...Back in the day a 650 was a big bike.

YES to Ducati singles..! I love that lovely little number in your link Flip. But not for me I;m afraid, with those clip-ons. Beautiful bike though.

I was lucky enough to own an original low milage 1965 model 14CSR AJS 250 single.
The AMC lightwieghts did not have a brilliant reputation, but this one excelled in every department. Absolutly great fun to ride.
I spoke at great length about it with the then, secretary of the local Ducati Owners club.
He insisted that my Ajay was actually better in terms of performance and reliability, than his Ducati 250. Very flattering at the time, but it does give me an insight as to how good an early Ducati single could be.

Lots of folk regard singles as plodders, but not many realise how a good one can rev out.
There is nothing quite like the sound of two singles accelerating hard into the distance..:biggrin:

Good call with the little Desmo's Flip..

[Flip]

Glad you like......

My Mach 1 (250cc) is a Spring Valve (pre Desmo), revs to 8500rpm, whacks out a heady 28bhp and weighs less than 100Kg. It is now almost how I want it and is so much fun to ride I'm surprised more people (other than those that race them too) haven't cottoned on to how good they can be.

Of course there are the purists that hate anything other than them being in original trim, which I appreciate but, although lovely to look at I think they are missing their potential these days and with a few well chosen modern tweeks they could be a real alternative to provide the grin so many people want from their Sunday morning whizz a round.

[Mr Gazza]

Oh yes Flip...very nice . It takes me back.

Have you got two coils? or maybe one is a breather catch tank?

I think the early singles still go for quite good money, but even so could be a good consolation for a 750 GT..Now they REALLY are getting good prices. In the region of £17000...Too strong for me..!!!

[Flip]

The 250's aren't too bad although they are probably the biggest entry in the 250 singles class. The 350's are good value as the grids for those has declined for some reason and so I think a lot are finding their way back on the road but it is the 450's (in Sports and Scrambler guises) that are starting attract proper money and as you say the bevel twins have just gone ridiculous in what they are changing hands for.

As with all things now deemed to be 'classic' I just think it is a shame so many people are hiding them away to make money on instead of using them for whatever they were intended for. My 250 was a race bike from very early on in it's life when they were a properly competitive production racer (or 'Catalogue Racer' as Ducati called them). Then it was moth balled for a number of years when they were no longer fashionable/competitive, brought out in the '80's when the classic scene was taking off before going into a collection around 1992 which from there I got it and put it back on the track. It's far from original (no race bike ever is), having many period mods as well as some more modern ones within the realms of eligibility and to keep it competitive.

[Dukedesmo]

Glad you like......

My Mach 1 (250cc) is a Spring Valve (pre Desmo), revs to 8500rpm, whacks out a heady 28bhp and weighs less than 100Kg.

Very nice. :thumbsup:

I had a 250 Scrambler which had basically the same engine but they only put out about half that power and struggled past 70mph. The race bikes must be well fettled.

[Flip]

It was actually a Scrambler (or a bevel twin) that I originally wanted when I looked at getting an old Ducati (it's a bad move going to the Museum!!!) but then I decided I also had to scratch the racing itch I had made excuses not to do for far too long, plus the Scramblers and twins go for silly money these days

I think a standard road going Mach 1 makes around 25bhp and weighs around 116Kg (and was still the first 100mph 250 single four stroke-allegedly) so by the time you junk the lights and associated charging system, the heavy standard seat and metal mudguards its not difficult to achieve a sub 100Kg. Couple that with the documented engine mods of twin plugs, race gear box and a hotter cam etc. and that eases a few more Italian Stallions from the little motor.

For those interested there's a standard Mach 1 here:
http://www.gearheadexchange.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Ducati_Mach_1_rh.jpg

And for those wanting to see typical engine mods here:
http://www.motoscrubs.com/Ducati_Engine/half_size_blueprint.gif

[Dukedesmo]

It was actually a Scrambler (or a bevel twin) that I originally wanted when I looked at getting an old Ducati (it's a bad move going to the Museum!!!) but then I decided I also had to scratch the racing itch I had made excuses not to do for far too long, plus the Scramblers and twins go for silly money these days



When my Scrambler munched it's big end bearings, I gave it away because I wanted rid quickly due to moving.

Hindsight eh? :o

Here's a pic taken in 1978;

http://www.ducati.ms/gallery/files/9/3/7/0/duc01d.jpg

[Flip]

LOVE IT!!!

Know exactly what you mean about hindsight....RD250DX.....RD350 YPVS....RD500YPVS.....
even the little TS50ER I had when I was 14 round the garden is worth a reasonable amount these days and I just know my early GSX-R750SRAD is going to be up there with them in a few years time.

So many bikes, not enough money and not nearly a big enough garage!!

[Dukedesmo]

Talking of hindsight, my Dad had a Norton Manx 500 that he got rid of and he always likes it when I remind him what it might be worth now. :(

So I'm not getting rid of any more bikes, only acquiring... ;)

[Flip]

I have a friend with a genuine Manx racer that was left to him in his best friends will. It still gets paraded at race meetings but it's too precious (and with it's 1960's TT and Manx GP history too valuable) to him to race it although there are grids full of them and G50 Matchless's (some are original and many are Fred Walmsley's amazing recreations) at CRMC meetings and of course the Lansdowne Classic which visits the CRMC meetings and is also pretty much all the 500's that race at the Goodwood Revival Meeting.

Again, another bike for the dream garage!!

http://www.lansdowneclassicseries.com/#
http://www.manx.co.uk/products/products.htm