Monster 696/796/1100/evo/Diesel - 2yr belt change

[neilo]

So, Mevo is almost 2yrs old (~8,000mls), and it's almost time to change the belts.

I REALLY fancy doing this job myself.

I've done a bit of research and watched a bunch of videos on how to change the belts on a 2v engine already. However, all the tutorials out there seem to be for 'older' models and not for the 696/796/1100/evo/Diesel. Understanding that the principles are likely to be the same, my main concern is how the bike's sub-frame may get in the way of the vertical belt, or when it comes to adjusting the vertical belt's tension.

Has anybody on here changed the belts on a 696/796/1100/evo/Diesel? Any tips to offer me? I know that parts of the exhaust need to come off, and that's fine.

What do folks on here use to tension their belts? 5mm/6mm Allen key method? 45 degree twist method? Audio frequency smartphone app (140Hz +/- 5Hz)?

I understand that the vertical cylinder needs to be at TDC when measuring the tension of the vertical belt, and that the crank needs to be rotated backwards by 90 degrees to attain this position. I haven't got a tool to rotate the crank, but plan to use the back wheel and visually check the crank.

I understand that it's a good idea to turn the engine over by hand (using the rear wheel while in 6th) to check for any unusual noises before firing the engine up... Can I assume that if the engine turns over fine (without any knocks/clunks (hard noises) that didn't exist before anyway) that things should be just fine?

And finally, am I a fool to try and do this myself? Besides the cost saving...I just fancy giving it a go in the hope that I learn more about Mevo and the way she works.

[utopia]

Can't speak for the new models, but its not difficult on the older ones.
I use the allen key method to tension the belts.
I don't think that bad tension adjustment will cause engine noise ...that would only happen if you misaligned/mistimed the pulleys.
I'd say do it. And as you say, diy leads to deeper knowledge of your machine.

[neilo]

I don't think that bad tension adjustment will cause engine noise ...that would only happen if you misaligned/mistimed the pulleys.


Yup - I understand that I've got to be careful about this. I'm planning on doing some marking up, and then transferring the marks on the old belts to the new ones before they go on.

[utopia]

You're right to be cautious, and take as many measurements as you can.
Also to get a good feel for the tension of the existing belts before you remove them.
I did all this when I first did mine, as I was very apprehensive about getting it wrong, particularly in view of all the talk about Ducatis needing full dealer servicing.
But you'll probably find that, after having done it once, you'll wonder why anyone bothers to pay dealer servicing prices for this work as, with care and caution, its actually a doddle.

Mind you, I repeat that my experience is limited to the older monsters. ...though I can't really see that making any difference.

[neilo]

Also to get a good feel for the tension of the existing belts before you remove them.

Mind you, I repeat that my experience is limited to the older monsters...though I can't really see that making any difference.

Yup, I'd planned to do this...writing measurements down as I went along.

Neither can I...it's just a 2v engine.

I know why people pay for dealer servicing, but given the bike won't be under warranty in a couple of months anyway, I'm just struggling to see why I should pay for a dealer to do something that I'd actually like to do myself! Besides, I'll know it was done correctly.

[john baylis]

With my zero mechanic skills I couldn't even attempt that my evo is 2 years old in a couple of weeks I will take mine back to DMC Moto in Preston (a branch of Ducati Manchester) they have looked after it from new and always look after me very well in every aspect. One worry I would have with home mechanics is how much will this affect the resale value with not having full Ducati service history.

[zhango]

Neil, you're right about the tutorials being for older models and the procedure is a bit different for the M1000 which I believe will apply to the M1100 as it's basically the same engine.

If it is the same, and I'm sure someone will shout if it isn't :), this is what I do:

The much used and respected 5mm/6mm Allen key method for the earlier engines will leave the belts too loose but the figure you quote of 140Hz for belt tension is wrong - Ducati revised that a few years ago to 110Hz for new belts.

The tension of both belts are set when H is at TDC compression and the mark on the layshaft pulley is aligned with mark on clutch side cover.

The camshaft covers on left side of engine have a screw in the middle which is removed and a Ducati tool inserted to lock each camshaft - I use a piece of 6mm diameter bar which works ok. By locking the camshafts and loosening the 3 torx screws which hold the cam pulleys to the flange the closer spring on the V cylinder has no effect on belt tension.

This allows the pulley to rotate without rotating the camshaft so keeping cam timing. My workshop manual does not give a tightening torque for these screws but they are M6x1 class 10.9 so I use a tightening torque of 15Nm. (A general figure for M6x1 class 8.8 screws is 10Nm.)

I did buy an electronic guitar tuner to set the tension but didn't get on with it so use the 45° twist method although I agree it's a bit subjective as to how much force to use. I've fitted a few belts on various engines so I'm confident to use this method but the tension is not as critical as the dealer would tell you although they can be either too loose or too tight. I've fitted 2 sets of belts to my bike and I'm happy with how I do it.

I've got some pics of how the cam locking tool works if you want?

You are quite right that it's a diy job - not disagreeing with John about resale value but bikes are my hobby and I enjoy working on them so I don't care about resale value.

[neilo]

Zhango, thanks so much for your response!

I also thought it was 110Hz until I looked at the workshop manual which quotes 140Hz...with a minimum of 70Hz. 140Hz seem quite tight to me, considering the current belts are returning around 80-90Hz at the moment. I think I'll go for 110Hz. I've also done the 5mm/6mm Allen key method and twist method on them, so have a general idea of how tight they should be.

That's right, I've now got to the belts. The hardest bit was getting the exhaust pipes off...everything else has been relatively easy so far. Took me ~1hr to get to the belts, but I was being very careful.

Just a few questions...

"when H is at TDC compression"...what's "H"?

Your 5th and 6th paragraphs lost me, sorry...although I'm not sure if it's the same on a 2v 1100 engine? Some pictures would be great! Thanks!

I completely agree with John about resale value, BUT, the question I ask myself is this... Does the money I save by servicing the bike myself = the reduction in the bike's resale/part-ex value... I suspect things might balance themselves out in a couple of years given that this will be one of the last air-cooled Monsters. Besides, I plan on keeping Mevo for a while yet, and I like to know that the servicing has been done correctly. After all, it's not like it's under warranty anymore... Dealer serviced or not, I'd still have to pay for repairs now...

[buzzbomb]

Neil you have one of the best Ducati mechanics locally, Richie ex Woods, give him a call and see what he charges as resale is always easier with a full service history...:thumbsup:

[zhango]

My workshop manual actually states 142Hz but it's wrong and Ducati issued a Service Bulletin to alter it to 110Hz.
Sonic Belt Tension - Ducati update
All previous and new model Ducati’s requiring belt tensioning now will be standardized to the below specifications.
IMPORTANT: When checking and adjusting timing belt tension at the recommended scheduled maintenance intervals, if tension reading is less than 70 Hz (minimum allowed value on all Ducati motorcycles), reset belt tension as follows:
Refer to the appropriate shop manuals for cam timing procedure and belt tension setup, then reset to the below tensions for service.
Model
Belt tension spec for new belts upon replacement
Belt tension adjustment settings for used belts when inspected value is determined to be 70 Hz or less
All models:
Streetfighter, 1198, 1098, 1098R 999, 998, 996, 916, 848, 749, M1100, MS4, MS4R, MS4RS, ST4, SC, ST3, ST2, SS1000 HYM 1100, MTS 1100,MTS 1000, MS2R 1000, M696, MS2R 800, M620, M400, M695, SS800, MTS 620
New Belts:
110 Hz +/- 5, Horizontal and Vertical *
Used Belts:
90-100 Hz +/- 5, Horizontal and Vertical *

* Please note, these values may be inaccurate on previous Ducati Technical Data posters and service manuals. Data listed above should be considered the new standard and supersedes all previous bulletins and documentation. Please print and post this bulletin to be displayed with the most current Ducati service poster.
Sincerely,
Ducati North America
Service Department
If you have used the Allen key method to check the tension you are checking the tension on a used belt so it's not very useful. If you read the Service Bulletin it states that the belt tension is adjusted if it is below 70Hz which is loose compared to initial tension.

You mention using a smartphone with frequency app and many guys have found that to work so have a go with that method - it's just not for me.

'H' is horizontal cylinder and 'V' is vertical cylinder.

I've got to go out now but will post some pics later today - when you look at cam covers on left side of engine is there a screw in the middle as well as the 2 screws attaching cover?

[neilo]

Neil you have one of the best Ducati mechanics locally, Richie ex Woods, give him a call and see what he charges as resale is always easier with a full service history...:thumbsup:

I already sent him a note (few days ago), but he didn't reply...:confused:

[neilo]

I've got to go out now but will post some pics later today - when you look at cam covers on left side of engine is there a screw in the middle as well as the 2 screws attaching cover?

Nope, just the 2 screws attaching the small cover...unless I'm looking at something completely different! :)

[zhango]

I've just got this pic off the net and it's supposed to be the 1100 Evo
This is the screw I mean.
http://i463.photobucket.com/albums/qq355/zhangopb/1100evo_zpse5139e20.jpg

[neilo]

I was looking at something completely different! Thanks for the picture!

Which are the "3 torx screws which hold the cam pulleys to the flange" you talk of?

[slob]

http://www.ducati.ms/forums/attachments/sport-touring/66029d1270952436-belt-trouble-my-troubles-belts-dsc07618b.jpg
on the rollers on the other end of the camshafts

[neilo]

Ah, got it! It all makes sense now. Thanks!

Wow...this has been a great learning exercise and is making me bond with Mevo even more!!

[zhango]

Here is a pic of a 6mm dia bar to lock the camshafts - the Ducati tool has a threaded part so you screw it in but the bar works ok. I put a piece of tape 28mm from end so when the tape touches the cover the bar is located fully.

The second pic shows what happens inside the cover and how the bar locates in the camshaft to stop it turning. The cam is not in the position it would be in when inserting bar from outside cover - I was doing something else and took a quick pic while cover was off.

With the H cylinder on TDC compression you can fit a bar in the cover of both cylinders so you lock both cams together. You may have to turn the cam pulley very slightly slightly by hand to locate the bar. You fit both belts with the engine in this position so forget about turning the engine backwards 90° for the V cylinder belt tension.

Do my paragraphs 5 and 6 make sense now?
http://i463.photobucket.com/albums/qq355/zhangopb/lockhorizontalcam_zps5514b326.jpg
http://i463.photobucket.com/albums/qq355/zhangopb/Picture254_zps0fff2055.jpg

[utopia]

My experience is limited to my old style 750, which has the one-piece pulleys, ie without the three torx screws.
But I'm somewhat surprised that its necessary to loosen those when fitting/adjusting new belts. (obviously this isn't even possible on my bike).
Wouldn't you be in danger of upsetting the cam timing if you did that ?

Also, I've never found it necessary to lock the camshafts.
If the pulleys move when the old belts come off, I just move them back by hand until the casing marks line up again, then pop the new belts on. ..you only have to get them aligned to the nearest tooth.


As I suspected Neilo, you seem to be checking the tension by ALL of the suggested methods, which is a good way of getting a decent feel for the situation if its your first time. Likewise getting a good feel for the tension of the existing belts before removing them is a good ploy.


I too, am happier when I do such work myself as, like you say, you then know that it has been done properly (as well as developing a deeper relationship with the bike).
A case in point...when I bought my bike with 2000 miles on the clock, its belts had been checked by the supplying dealer at the first service, and replaced twice by another dealer (the second set having only done 200 miles in two years).
When I looked under the belt covers, I discovered that there was a manufacturing fault on the drive pulley, which had chafed away the outer edge of the belt teeth. The casing was full of belt dust and the belt had moved outwards and started bandsawing its way through the belt covers. In just a few more miles, a section of plastic belt cover would have dropped off, lodged between belt and pulley, and probably trashed my engine.
Neither of the two dealers who checked/changed the belts previously had taken any notice of this ...or at least not to my knowledge.

Finally, I've never tried the frequency method, but I do have a guitar tuner so I fancy giving it a go when next doing a belt change.
But I have no idea how to do it that way, so any further details would be much appreciated.

[neilo]

Everything makes perfect sense now!! Thank you so much!!!

[slob]

Quite correct. They're adjustable for dialling in the cams, which is an improvement over the old method of using offset woodruff keys. Ordinarily you shoudln't be needing to change them during a belt change.

http://www.bikeboy.org/camdial.html
http://www.bikeboy.org/camtime2v.html
http://www.ducatitech.com/2v/maint/rebuild/headwork.html

[neilo]

Finally, I've never tried the frequency method, but I do have a guitar tuner so I fancy giving it a go when next doing a belt change.
But I have no idea how to do it that way, so any further details would be much appreciated.

I believe you'd be looking for A2 on a guitar tuner = 110Hz. My current belts are returning around 80-90Hz at the moment, which would make sense given they're used/they've loosened over time. Just locate the mic of the tuner close to the belts and strum it. Here, this will give you some idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETUD6AfK2d8

The two Android apps I'm using for checking are:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.cohortor.gstrings&feature=search_result#?t=W251bGwsMSwxLDEsIm9yZy5jb 2hvcnRvci5nc3RyaW5ncyJd

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.bork.dsp.datuna&feature=search_result#?t=W251bGwsMSwxLDEsImNvbS5ib 3JrLmRzcC5kYXR1bmEiXQ..

[john baylis]

What an interesting topic this is I wish I was nearer to you Neil I would have enjoyed observing you doing this, excellent technical input from Zhango and Rob, I am completely lost mind . I will have to see what it will cost me at dealer hope it all goes well Neil.

[neilo]

...excellent technical input from Zhango and Rob

...and Utopia.

Thanks very much guys.

I too was thinking about how much I'd learnt from this topic... The knowledge on here is amazing!! Thanks for being patient with me :)

[neilo]

That's it! Job done!! Oil + filter, air filter and belts changed, and plugs cleaned. Bike's running beautifully. No problems whatsoever, and a couple of hundred quid saved in the process. I went for a little test ride afterwards, and there's a new found affinity between me and Mevo! Hooray!!

Thanks again to Zhango, Rob and Utopia, and a thumbs up for Craig @ Moto Rapido for 24hr delivery of the bits I needed.

[john baylis]

Well done Neil, good job done

[Cobra88]

Hi Neil

Did you have to remove the exhaust header to get the belt covers out of the way ?

Regards
Rick

[garry]

just checking mine today and wondering the same..

[Luddite]

Hi Garry

You'll need to remove the upper pipe from the vertical cylinder, which means the link pipe and silencer must also come off. The actual headers themselves for both the vertical and horizontal cylinders can remain in situ.

You'll also have to take off the right-side tank skin to give you the clearance to remove the vertical cambelt cover.

http://i873.photobucket.com/albums/ab292/vincebessant/Link%20pipes_zpsg7xhxisq.png (http://s873.photobucket.com/user/vincebessant/media/Link%20pipes_zpsg7xhxisq.png.html)

Like Neil and many others in the club, I get my belts from Moto Rapido (01962 873971).

Hope that helps.