Fried Reg/Rectifier

[Kato]

This is for bikes with the discreet 3-phase Stator/Generator and Rectifier/Regulator arrangement (Three yellow wires)

Most of us at some point have experienced problems with OEM Regulator/Rectifier used on pretty much the whole Ducati range, so time to do something about replacing the standard equipment R/R with a more efficient component.
I’m assuming that your R/R has failed at this point but no reason you couldn’t do as a preventive measure / upgrade if you were bored could be done in under an hour

First a basic troubleshooting process to determine whether you have a charging system failure.

A good Multi-meter is a pre-requisite.


Record your battery voltage under the follow conditions
1) Ignition off, unloaded battery.
2) Ignition on, headlights on, not running
3) Bike started, running at idle

Condition 1, should be at least in the high 12.x range if fully charged.

Condition 2, your voltage should not drop much below 12.0 at worst. (It may continue to drop – hopefully slowly! – As your lights will be discharging it. However this should be a slow decline)

If it does drop immediately into the 11’s, your battery is insufficiently charged – if it was just charged from a battery charger however, then it indicates your battery no longer has sufficient capacity to retain charge/supply current to load and should be replaced.

Condition 3 is what we are most interested in with respect to charging capability.
Voltage should be at least in the 13’s at all engine rpm. You may detect it will fall off slightly as you raise engine rpm. This is not atypical performance. A simple mod that can enhance your charging voltage to the battery can be achieved by this modification outlined in this thread. That should give you performance in the 14V+ range.

What if you have less than 13V?
First thing to check is the fuse in the charging circuit.

Next, examine the wires and connectors between the R/R output and the R/R input – are these charred/melted due to excessive heating? This is fairly common result of poor connection between the terminals.

A ‘cold’ resistance check for shorted diode/SCR:
Unplug both input & output plugs from R/R;
With your meter set to read resistance (use a diode test if the your multi-meter has one), test from each pin of the three pin plug, to both the red & green wired pins NONE of these should read short circuit (zero resistance); depending which way you bias the test leads, you may get some reading (from the forward bias) but it must absolutely not be a short. If you see a short on any of these readings the R/R is defective.

Next, do a resistance check on the stator (check at the cable connector going back towards the stator itself).
Measure between the three respective combinations of the three pins:
1-2
2-3
3-1
This time each of these should measure almost short circuit (very low resistance in order or about 1 ohm)

This next check is probably the simplest/quickest way of determining a stator problem - in majority of cases a bad stator will be indicated by failing following test:
Check resistance from any one pin to the engine earth – this should not read any indication – maximum resistance or open-circuit.
If you read ‘short’ in that last test, then your stator is :thumbsdown:.
(if open, it is not quite guaranteed your stator is good however - but in majority of cases a failed stator will fail this isolation test)

[Kato]

Check the AC voltage output from the stator with engine running:
Leave stator disconnected from the R/R and start the engine.
With meter set to read AC Volts check
1-2
2-3
3-1
All three should be the same value – any significant difference of one reading will indicate a bad phase and the stator is probably defective.
At idle this should be ~ 20V* and rise to ~ 70V* at 5K rpm.
I hesitate to use absolute numbers here as this can be different between models and test equipment and especially the engine rpm!
What you are looking for is same value between phases and like increase on each phase as rpm increases.
If any of the above tests raises suspicion, remover the cover & inspect the stator. It is simple to do and can set your mind at ease by seeing what it looks like.
Hopefully NOT with 1/3 of it a black charred mess!

If you have to replace the stator and R/R, especially because of a shorted R/R and excess current drain, be especially careful to ensure that your wiring has not burned. Replace any cable &/or connector plug that is not in good condition.

Now on to the alternative R/R replacement

- as aforementioned this is a good preventive upgrade measure with a better component, not necessarily limited to replacement on failure. Either way, process is the same.

Best widely available R/R on the market was the Shindengen FH012AA used on the late (06+) Yamaha FJR, 07+ Yamaha R1 among others this has now been now superseded by the better FH020AA

What makes it better is that is a MOSFET controlled device rather than the crude SCR shunt type that is on our Ducati's.
MUCH better voltage regulation and runs cooler too due to more efficient device and control circuitry.

The SCR shunt type consumes more energy in the Regulator itself than the bike is using and dumps a ton of excess current into the heat sink (feel yours & just see how hot it runs after a ride - don't touch it - you'll burn yourself - seriously!)
The problem is exacerbated because their efficiency goes even lower when they get HOT so it's a vicious circle. Heat is the number 1 killer of these devices.
Incidentally it’s a misconception that shunt type work harder with increased load i.e. higher-wattage lights, heated grips etc. - actually, the higher the load on the output, the less work the shunt regulator does in dumping that excess energy and will actually run cooler!!

The FET has extremely low resistance in conducting state and this’ results in a lower dissipated power from the device while conducting load current, as opposed to the SCR which shunts the maximum current across a significant volt drop, resulting in a higher dissipated power - and resulting temperature, much more so than the FET device.

Parts Needed for a direct swap
Shindengen FH020AA or FH012A0
Triumph link lead part number T2500676
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r94/kato--/FH020AA_gray_back_ground_zps655b8dac.jpg
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r94/kato--/leadsd_zps75b93143.jpg

[Kato]

If you want to make yet more improvement and replace the existing wiring for something altogether more robust then you will need

1 x FH020AA
2 x Furukawa Connectors
1 x 4 way am-phenol Connector
1 x 3 way am-phenol Connector

Cut the plugs from the 3 yellow wire coming out from the stator and and the red / green wires then replace with the weatherproof amphenol type plugs
Theses ones
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r94/kato--/DSCF1024_zpsf3751838.jpg

Make up a lead with the other half of the Amphenol connectors at one end and the Furukawa connectors on the other

Furukawa
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r94/kato--/furukawa_3P-250_1028_zps0845d912.jpg
Amphenol
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r94/kato--/image_zps0756effb.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r94/kato--/Untitled-1_zps45b42d35.jpg

Hopefully you'll end up with something looking like this one
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r94/kato--/Untitled-2-3_zps58ddddef.jpg

Have Fun :shocked::shocked::shocked::spin:

[utopia]

What a cracking posting, Kato.
Thanks very much indeed for a straightforward, easy to follow yet very detailed "how to", with all the info and pics needed to do the complete job.
Definitely worth a big sticky in my opinion.
And a second "thanks very much" from me.
Maybe even a third.

I'm almost disappointed that I replaced mine with an Electrex unit a couple of years ago (which I believe to be SCR type rather than Mosfet, but there is some uncertainty).

As far as I can tell, you've fitted yours under the tank. Any particular reason for this ? I'm guessing its partly to keep the connectors in a dryer location, but that will obviously tend to keep the unit out of the cooling blast of air too, and surely these mosfet units still need a good cooling even though you say they run cooler than the std item....?

Final question...due to the improved reliability of the mosfet, is it your opinion that a secondhand unit would be a safe buy ? I would never fit a used oem unit, but maybe its ok with these for a cheapskate like myself.......?

And a fourth "thanks very much" from me.

[Trent]

Final question...due to the improved reliability of the mosfet, is it your opinion that a secondhand unit would be a safe buy ? I would never fit a used oem unit, but maybe its ok with these for a cheapskate like myself.......?

I'm also a cheapskate and recently bought the same reg / rec used from eBay to go on my KTM - I believe it came of a Multistrada 1200.

I bought the Furukawa connectors from this geezer:
http://easternbeaver.com/Main/Elec__Products/Connectors/R-R_Connectors/r-r_connectors.html

IMO it should be fine for many years even though it's second hand... I got it for £10, so not a huge problem even if it does die...

[ductromso]

Im looking for an alternative RR that i can use on my 94 M900 with 2 wire stator . I bought an electrex rr and this one was no good ,so i replaced it with a used OEM RR i got from a friend . If you guys have advice for a better and more stabile RR alternative for an old 2 wired Monster, i will be happy for some hints !

[Darren69]

Im looking for an alternative RR that i can use on my 94 M900 with 2 wire stator . I bought an electrex rr and this one was no good ,so i replaced it with a used OEM RR i got from a friend . If you guys have advice for a better and more stabile RR alternative for an old 2 wired Monster, i will be happy for some hints !

I think you should be able to use the 3 phase reg on a single phase system, but you will have one less yellow wire to connect. Has anybody actually tried this to either prove or dispel my theory?

[Kato]

I think you should be able to use the 3 phase reg on a single phase system, but you will have one less yellow wire to connect. Has anybody actually tried this to either prove or dispel my theory?


Yes .....and yes it works without any problems

[Saint aka ML]

Yes .....and yes it works without any problems

Yep all good as Kato says

[Mr Gazza]

This couldn't have come at a better time Kato...Thanks for really good info here.

I was planning to head off any reg/rec problems at the pass this winter, by simply replacing all the connectors with soldered Gold connectors as used on my electric model aeroplanes.

We use them on the models because they make a very good connection that handles lots of Amps with little resistance and have the benefit of emitting minimal RF noise (radio frequency), which can interfere with the radio control, but not a problem that I have ever had on a bike...:chuckle:

Your conversion is way ahead of my ideas Kato, and I think that is definatly the way I will be going. Especialy as you have explained everything in such an understandable and logical way.........Thanks.


....P.S..Shouldn't a topic like this be sticky-fied?

[Darren69]

Hi Gazza, Did a bit of googleing and found this guy who supplies all the required parts in various kits, either full diy assembly or plug n play. From what I can gather though the triumph plug does not have the same catch on the plug to lock with the other socket and has to be cable tied, so maybe the best option is the full diy jobbie.

http://roadstercycle.com/

[Mr Gazza]

Nice one Darren..Thanks for doing your homework..:biggrin:

The kits do seem a bit on the dear side though, and I have found that you have to be careful importing stuff and buying in a different currency.

First little take is from Paypal, who have a "special" exchange rate.
Then you may have to pay VAT on the goods when they arrive in the UK.
Then Royal mail may charge to bring it to your door and handle it through Customs.
Might be wrong though...Never bought anything from the US...I'm sure thier economy can manage without my input..:biggrin:

There's a good Yamaha dealer in Norwich (Tinklers), so I might see what they want for the reg/rec.
I found some very good connectors for my injectors on ebay so I will look there for those.

....Stiil not a sticky topic...??

[Darren69]

When I read Kato's thread I was interested in how much one would cost and a quick search on ebay concluded that they were £60-80 quid s/h and about £130 new just for the reg/rec unit so I'll be leaving mine with the stock unit for now in any case until if/when it fails but given that heat is the main cause of failure I'd already fitted a re-locator kit from TPO and picked up a cheap s/h unit from an ss for 15 quid just in case so I will see how it goes.

[utopia]

While browsing ebay for other electrical items, I came across these mosfet reg/recs, which are listed as being suitable for various late model Yamaha R1s.......

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MOSFET-REGULATOR-RECTIFIER-YAMAHA-R1-YFZ-R1-YZFR1-02-03-2007-2013-STREE-BIKE-/221562358395?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item3396254a7b

The model number is FH012AA, which doesn't correspond exactly with Kato's recommendations of FH020AA, or FH012AO, but is sufficiently close to both that I'm hopeful that it might be a suitable fitment.
AND.... its only £27.
Can anyone tell me whether it will be suitable for my M750 ?

[Dennis menace]

What a great 'How To' - keep 'em coming.

[utopia]

It will be even better if the above mentioned FH012AA units will do the job at £27 a pop.
I await the advice of those more electrically skilled than myself (which isn't hard) with great anticipation.

[Kato]

Amended to remove my typo, it should indeed have said FH012AA, nice find Jeff

FH020AA is the latest version of the above

[utopia]

F..king far out !
I do love a bargain mod.
At that price, its far cheaper to upgrade than to fit a std Ducati unit or an Electrex replacement.
That's on my winter list now.

And...the same company advertise some very cheap, Superseal type connectors, and other odds and sods.
Dunno whether they're genuine, but that's probably no big deal anyway.
They even stock an 8-way waterproof multiconnector......which is how I came to spot the mosfets.
An order will be placed shortly and I will report back on its arrival.

[Dirty]

Even cheaper :) -> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Voltage-Rectifier-Regulator-For-Yamaha-YZF-R1-2002-2012-2003-2004-2005-2006-07/390924622470?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%2 6asc%3D25293%26meid%3Dd656c3b67cb74556892bfaa90494 c107%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D10621%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3 D6%26sd%3D221562358395&rt=nc

[utopia]

Yes, I saw that one.
Its actually the same company that I got my billet levers from.
But there's no specific part number on their advert, so no absolute guarantee that its the correct one.
It probably is the same, but not worth the risk for a couple of quid, I thought.

[Dirty]

Well they are both for R1s within the same date rage so I'd be very confident they are identical. A quick message to the seller may confirm.

[utopia]

A word of warning though.....I have been told that the Shindengen website warns of counterfeit units built with inferior internal components.
Of course they probably would say that anyway to preserve their trade, but still worth being cautious with cheaper alternatives of any kind.
You pays yer money........

[DrD]

Mate locally has had problems with "new" Shindengen on his 888

Q: Not all these regulators support the charge light on the console - does this one you are using?

[Mr Gazza]

I so nearly went for this conversion when Kato first posted it last year, but I was put off by the price of the Yamaha units. So I stuck with the working rectifier that I have with good connections.

Utopia's find has got me on the boil again but I am a little concerned about the counterfeit story...Can we tell which ones are likely to be counterfeit?
I must admit that The link Dirty posted does not send the right signals, and Utopia's does show the part number on the item.
Who is Shindengen? I am assuming they are the makers of the genuine items?

The phrase " If it looks too good to be true, it probably is" ...Springs to mind..

[Kato]

OK I can guarantee if you are using a genuine Shindengen FH012AA or FH020AA they work on all three phase Ducati, I have not personally tried one with the early single phase generators, you are right to be cautious though as there are a lot of Chinese copy units floating about.

http://www.shindengen.co.uk/index.asp?page=aboutus

Shindengen - World leading manufacturer of energy conversion products such as rectifier diodes, schottky diodes, power MOSFETs, bridge diodes etc. they are Japanese with a European HQ in the UK beware of anything coming out of China

[jerry]

the weakest point in all ducati electrials systems is the crap standard connectors , superseal or similar or solder and heatshrink is a good start .

[Dirty]

Yes, I saw that one.
Its actually the same company that I got my billet levers from.
But there's no specific part number on their advert, so no absolute guarantee that its the correct one.
It probably is the same, but not worth the risk for a couple of quid, I thought.

Just got a reply from the seller :)

Hello my friend,Thanks for your message,I am understand,The part number of this item is FH012AA,best regards,etop

[jerry]

Electrex world RR are not Mosfets they are crappy shunts ,,

[jerry]

im on the hunt for another RR just replaced an electrex on that failed after only 3 years with a cheap chinese £16 one ,, not mosfet but i reckon its the exact unit electrexare selling for £90 !!! but looking for a decent mosfet unit to fit with upgraded connectors
any one found any reasonable sources ??

[jerry]

Damn the S4 has some weird problems ,, its not charging properly Stator is good giving from 19v output up to 58+ AC volts on all 3 phases as engine revs on my fluke multimeter

new RR measures fine on impedance ,using my fluke meter and battery is brand new Morobatt but charging out put from RR is only 12..3 volts at tick over and as revs rise volts from RR go down to 7.8 v ?????? and its really HOT connectors are Big yellow 6mm bullets all new .

im totally perplexed and of course this being Thailand the Ducati dealers have zero stock and are quoting £250 for REG RECTIFIER 4 weeks delivery ,,

Im not sure what the issue is is it RR ?? would explain the problems ?

maybe some other bike dealer can supply me with a RR Honda or kawasaki have parts in stock


could the yellow phase wires s be out of phase cause new RR to malfunction ???? i marked them before connecting 1 ,2, 3 but might have mixed accidentally ????

[Kato]

The most likely cause is the three wires from the generator have damaged insulation and are shorting together at higher voltages i.e when the engine is running at higher rpm.

Problem is when they short together the regulator usually gets fried

I would start by replacing the 3 yellow wires all the way back to the generator

[jerry]

The new cheap chinese RR is no good on phase diode is shorted ,, need to get another one not easy here Ducati dealer dont keep spares everything is on back order ,, so stupid .. but honda dealer may have a VFR one ,,,would like a mosfet but that will have to wait till im back in Uk in december

the 3 yellow alternator leads were replaced with heavier guage wire last year ,, stator tests OK ,will get a spare from UK too ,,,, next RR is going to be mounted behind the number plate for better air flow ,,,

[jerry]

shame shindegren dont supply direct to public they seem difficult to source

[jerry]

ive been given 3 2nd hand Reg/Recs

1st is off an R1 is seems to be a schindengren unit its marked FH001

the 2nd looks identical to a ducati one 3 yellow wires 2 red 2 green but there is also a black ??? not sure what the black does .

3rd one is of a honda and looks smaller all 3 test out ok on the bench

gonna try them tommorow

[Kato]

The FH001 is a Shindegren mosfet RR

The key specification details are up to 200volt back voltage on the diodes, 35 amp capacity and 14.4 volt stabilised output.
It handles less amperage than the FH012 but will handle a higher back voltage.

[jerry]

The FH001 is a Shindegren mosfet RR

The key specification details are up to 200volt back voltage on the diodes, 35 amp capacity and 14.4 volt stabilised output.
It handles less amperage than the FH012 but will handle a higher back voltage.



what size fuse do you reckon ????

[Kato]

OK FH001 is an early unit circa 2003? will be ok with 30amp main fuse, the good news in that its old kit is you deffo wont have one of the chinese fakes that are all over ebay

[jerry]

The Shindengen Regdid not work on the bike ? tests good on the bencg ????

the reg with extra black wire worked but was giving 17v at battery so thats no good ???

the last on which ws probably off some honda ?? works ok its giving a max voltage of 13,4v at the battery , but the battery is fully charged .. i have mounted it behind rhe number plate with a 5mm aluminiumheatsink backing plate so it gets good air flow rather than under the seat ,,

bike has had about 45 mile run is running smooth as silk although the Tacho is still a bit weird at tick over its on 1000rpm but at speed it never seems to go above 4000 rpm ??

[jerry]

new reg has died it started puming out 18v ??? no good

im gonna have another try with schindengen yamaha one as it may not have been making proper contact as i dont have correst connectors ,, will solder wires on ,,and test

might have to write off the whole trip as im back to UK on 6 dec .totally pissed off ...riding my bike is the only thing that makes me happy here ...apart from Jonny Walker and ice ...



BUT now THE SHINDENGEN YAMAHA UNIT is working i mounted it back under the seat on my big aluminium heatsink its chaging 13,4v at 1000rpm and at 4-5k its stable at 14,4v max and the Reg does not get red hot either so lets hope it holds out for next 3 weeks ??

other problem is that the tacho shows max revs and rev limiter at 6000rpm should be 9k+ and the engine is hittiing 9k by the sound and the bike is hitting max speeds so the rev counter is under reading at 4000rpm it seem to show about 2700rpm have I damaged it can it be calibrated ???

[alan s4]

That's me fitted the R1 reg/rect and the Triumph leads, what a difference:

https://s16.postimg.org/u2rd3mmvp/IMG_1283.jpg

Just over 14v at idle and rising steadily as the revs increase. For comparison my new electrex unit was generating just 12.5v at idle.

No more Jumpy rev counter either:woot:

I'm hoping that this is the long term fix I've been looking for. Thanks to Kato for the original post.

[jerry]

im now getting a solid 14.1v at idle and up to a max 14,4v so used 2003 yamaha FH1 RR sems to be good ,,

but tacho is way off its fine at idle but everywhere else its reading low most of the time sits at 3k ???

[Jez900ie]

This is for bikes with the discreet 3-phase Stator/Generator and Rectifier/Regulator arrangement (Three yellow wires)

Most of us at some point have experienced problems with OEM Regulator/Rectifier used on pretty much the whole Ducati range, so time to do something about replacing the standard equipment R/R with a more efficient component.
I’m assuming that your R/R has failed at this point but no reason you couldn’t do as a preventive measure / upgrade if you were bored could be done in under an hour

First a basic troubleshooting process to determine whether you have a charging system failure.

A good Multi-meter is a pre-requisite.


Record your battery voltage under the follow conditions
1) Ignition off, unloaded battery.
2) Ignition on, headlights on, not running
3) Bike started, running at idle

Condition 1, should be at least in the high 12.x range if fully charged.

Condition 2, your voltage should not drop much below 12.0 at worst. (It may continue to drop – hopefully slowly! – As your lights will be discharging it. However this should be a slow decline)

If it does drop immediately into the 11’s, your battery is insufficiently charged – if it was just charged from a battery charger however, then it indicates your battery no longer has sufficient capacity to retain charge/supply current to load and should be replaced.

Condition 3 is what we are most interested in with respect to charging capability.
Voltage should be at least in the 13’s at all engine rpm. You may detect it will fall off slightly as you raise engine rpm. This is not atypical performance. A simple mod that can enhance your charging voltage to the battery can be achieved by this modification outlined in this thread. That should give you performance in the 14V+ range.

What if you have less than 13V?
First thing to check is the fuse in the charging circuit.

Next, examine the wires and connectors between the R/R output and the R/R input – are these charred/melted due to excessive heating? This is fairly common result of poor connection between the terminals.

A ‘cold’ resistance check for shorted diode/SCR:
Unplug both input & output plugs from R/R;
With your meter set to read resistance (use a diode test if the your multi-meter has one), test from each pin of the three pin plug, to both the red & green wired pins NONE of these should read short circuit (zero resistance); depending which way you bias the test leads, you may get some reading (from the forward bias) but it must absolutely not be a short. If you see a short on any of these readings the R/R is defective.

Next, do a resistance check on the stator (check at the cable connector going back towards the stator itself).
Measure between the three respective combinations of the three pins:
1-2
2-3
3-1
This time each of these should measure almost short circuit (very low resistance in order or about 1 ohm)

This next check is probably the simplest/quickest way of determining a stator problem - in majority of cases a bad stator will be indicated by failing following test:
Check resistance from any one pin to the engine earth – this should not read any indication – maximum resistance or open-circuit.
If you read ‘short’ in that last test, then your stator is :thumbsdown:.
(if open, it is not quite guaranteed your stator is good however - but in majority of cases a failed stator will fail this isolation test)

As all this info is a few years old, is there now a complete kit that can be bought which is plug and play? Anyone have a link?

Switching the whole system seems like a good thing to take care of during the dark months. Plus some of these cables Yes/No?

Electrickery really isn't my thing so any advice very welcome!

[alan s4]

The Kato method is plug and play.....keep reading the original post. Order the triumph part and there is no need to splice any cables or carry out any alterations. I swapped my RR a year ago (with the triumph cable) and it's been fine ever since.

[Jez900ie]

Now installed and working well. Thanks Kato and all other contributors.

[Nasher]

Q: Not all these regulators support the charge light on the console - does this one you are using?

Did this ever get answered?
I'd like to keep the charge light working on my 97 M900.

Also, has anyone actually tried this conversion on a 2-wire, single phase Monster?

Thanks

Nasher.

[Kato]

Also, has anyone actually tried this conversion on a 2-wire, single phase Monster?

Thanks

Nasher.


Yes Simon I have and yes it works very nicely :)

[Nasher]

Yes Simon I have and yes it works very nicely :)

Thanks mate.

I've ordered the parts anyway now.

Nasher.

[jerry]

shunt type RR is old Tech i think Electrex world are missing an opportunity not to promote a Mosfet unit instead

[CarloL]

Thanks mate.

I've ordered the parts anyway now.

Nasher.

Nasher , I have a 97 M900

Did you install yours? What parts did you use, triumph cable needed? PnP?