Finding TDC M600 for belt change.

[Reaperman]

Hi guys and gals, yep its another belt related thread.

Right I started as I always seem to with things, bull in a china shop type thing. I've lined up all the pullies and removed and replaced all the belts without moving them from the marks, lines and dots. But in my haste I didn't look in the sight window to find TDC. So now I don't know which dot in the left hand sight window is horizontal or vertical TDC. I've not tensioned the belts as I don't want to cause any damage.

My Haynes manual isn't helping and to add to the trouble I've got a completely seized rounded and buggered bolt for the horizontal tensioner stuck in the crank case.

Please HELP!!!!!!

[DrD]

Poke down both spark plugs with suitable rod - shortest length is TDC!

[Nickj]

As long as the belt poisition marks are the same then they'll time out the same as they were before.
You only need to worry about the TDC marks if you've rotated either of the pulleys at the heads or the crank with the belts off, even then it's just a matter or rotating a full turn to the pulley marks and they're back where they were to start with.

[Reaperman]

Poke down both spark plugs with suitable rod - shortest length is TDC!

Cheers, that seems the most simple technique to use. Now to find a suitable clean rod.

I know that both top and horizontal pulleys have moved abit so double checking TDC would be a good course of action.

[Geoff Ives]

I've done five of these on M750... ST2... Paso and 600SS and never looked at the sighting glass.
Take the plugs out.
Line the marks up, Stick it in first gear, slacken or remove the tensioners, take off the belts. If the pulleys move a little move them back. Refit new belts. Spin the engine (back to neutral) check that the marks line up, tighten everything and enjoy the bike. 20 minutes start to finish on a M600
Good luck.
Geoff

[slob]

As Geoff says: Sight glass on the l/h side case, there are also marks on the pulleys unless I'm mistaken.

the below are from a 620ie manual

circle lines up with A at horizontal cylinder at TDC
http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/attachment.php?attachmentid=16863&stc=1&d=1361467062

A and B line up on drive pulley
http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/attachment.php?attachmentid=16864&stc=1&d=1361467062

Pin L locks driven pulley in place
http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/attachment.php?attachmentid=16865&stc=1&d=1361467397

[manwithredbike]

as nickj says, i don't think the timing marks matter when only changing belts as long as the 3 pulley dots line up with their respective marks, all should be grand
only small issue is that one pulley is under valve spring tension and needs to be held in position while fitting the belt.

one wee tip, disconnect the battery and be careful if spinning the crank with the back wheel when the belts are off in case a valve is resting in the open position.
i know a guy (very well) who found this very 'inconvenient'

[Dookbob]

Hi guys and gals, yep its another belt related thread.

Right I started as I always seem to with things, bull in a china shop type thing. I've lined up all the pullies and removed and replaced all the belts without moving them from the marks, lines and dots. But in my haste I didn't look in the sight window to find TDC. So now I don't know which dot in the left hand sight window is horizontal or vertical TDC. I've not tensioned the belts as I don't want to cause any damage.

My Haynes manual isn't helping and to add to the trouble I've got a completely seized rounded and buggered bolt for the horizontal tensioner stuck in the crank case.

Please HELP!!!!!!

If you have a pal with a portable welding set, get him to weld a nut on the end of your rounded bolt, but be sure to move the belts out of the way and cover the bottom pully if it,s on the vertical cylinder. The heat from the welding will probably enable the seized bolt to come out quite easyly. Disconnect both leads from the battery before you do the weld.

[gary tompkins]

I've never bothered with the TDC setting when swapping belts, just make sure your pully marks line up after removing and refitting belts. Must have changed at least 10 sets so far like this without a problem.

[Nickj]

And a handy help are the locating holes on the head pulleys. There is a corresponding hole in the belt casing, stick a bolt through (standard casing type) and it's locked in place. I did use one once but then never bothered after.

I'd worry more about extracting the boggered bolt

[gary tompkins]

The stock tensioner bolts are made of cheese

I almost had one round out on me on the 600 years ago. I've since replaced these crap fasteners with pukka stainless hex bolts on all my monsters, and avoid the problem happening again. If you can carefully tack weld an 8mm bolt to the damaged head, you may be able to wind the allen bolt out. The heat from welding would help to free off the bolt as well. I've used this method to remove seized exhaust studs as well... my mig welder's worth it's weight in gold at times like that.

[urbanfireblade]

Use a torx bit to see if that fits any tighter in the rounded off bolt head. Or disc cut a slot in the bolt head to use a screwdriver, or grind 2 flats on the outside, mole grips and a bar through them to act as a 'T' bar. Plenty of ways to do it, just depends what you've got to hand. Mole grips is the easiest to try i'm guessing.
My '01 600 Monster has the threaded holes in the plastic casing to lock the pulleys, its an easy and satisfying job to do as long as everything comes undone ok, and Gary's advice on replacing the bolts with stainless or even just normal decent steel bolts is a good one.

[popelli]

Gary's advice on replacing the bolts with stainless or even just normal decent steel bolts is a good one.

and use copperslip

[Reaperman]

Well I've solved the problem of the horizontal tensioner bolt. I used a perfect size torque bit with the aid of a hammer, that failed so ended up driling it out with 4 different size bits. After an hour of drilling getting larger and larger the torque bit and hammer were used again and its now free.

The belts will be done in the next day or to as everyone is making it sound so easy. I'll ignore the sight glass and go back to the line up the dots method. Cheers for eveyones help and I'll let you all know how it goes. Expect a post asking for a new 600 or 900 engine :)

[urbanfireblade]

Well done on the bolt situation. Bet that was a relief when it came out. The dots are hard to see through the oily sight glass, but just stick a pencil in the horizontal spark plug hole and watch until its at pushed out furthest, ie tdc then look for the dot, you'd have to be way out tbh to get it a whole belt tooth out.

[Reaperman]

No need for a new engine as the belts have been changed, tensioned and spin free. The 4 tensioner bolts have now been replaced with bog standard hex bolts with copper slip. And boy does she roar into life :biggrin: 2 years of work and once its taxed and MOT'd I'll be able to put up a build thread.

[don_matese]

Wheres the like button?

[DrD]

:thumbsup:

[Reaperman]

Well that was a short lived success, took it for a test ride up the road and it runs very rough. so tomorrow I'm re synchronizing and making the carbs leaner as they are running rich. Probably adjusting the throttle as well, I will get this monster on the road even if the Mrs kills me!

[Petej]

Roll on the build thread!!!

[Unit 18]

Well that was a short lived success, took it for a test ride up the road and it runs very rough. so tomorrow I'm re synchronizing and making the carbs leaner as they are running rich. Probably adjusting the throttle as well, I will get this monster on the road even if the Mrs kills!

Could be carb ice, perfect conditions for it lately.

[Reaperman]

Turns out the last time I tried syncing the carbs I had infact synced 1 carb so far out that its been a nightmare fixing it. It's taken all day getting it balanced and the vacuum gauges are telling me they are synced but my valve timing is way out. Sadly I'll be having to take it to a dealer to sort the valves, this does not please me as I was wanting to do it all myself but that isn't going to work.:hissy:

[gary tompkins]

Sounds like the pullys might have moved while you were working on the belts

Was the bike running ok before you attempted the belt change?

[DrD]

It just might be worth rechecking the cam belt alignment with front cylinder at TDC and crankshaft pulley lined up correctly. If either of the cam pulleys are out you have your problem, and that is easy to fix.

[Reaperman]

Sounds like the pullys might have moved while you were working on the belts

Was the bike running ok before you attempted the belt change?

Before I pulled it to bits 2 years ago it was, but before the belt change it wasn't.

It just might be worth rechecking the cam belt alignment with front cylinder at TDC and crankshaft pulley lined up correctly. If either of the cam pulleys are out you have your problem, and that is easy to fix.

I'll have to give that ago next week as I'm on nights over the weekend.

[Reaperman]

:biggrin: Re synced the carbs and it now runs close to perfect. Only problem I discovered are when it runs out of fuel on a test ride you have to push it.

[gary tompkins]

Ahh.. yes unfortunately they don't tend to run very well on fresh air

Glad you sorted the running problems in the end

[Reaperman]

Ahh.. yes unfortunately they don't tend to run very well on fresh air

Glad you sorted the running problems in the end

This bike is now the bane of my life, I took it for a quick ride and now it seems to struggle unless I'm really aggressive with the throttle. And to top it off now none of the lights work. Blown fuse I think.

Are there any members who like working on monsters local to me who might be willing to take a look at it? I live in Ripley Derbyshire.

[utopia]

Well, if you were out on it today, I'd say that the damp and cold conditions were just about perfect for carb icing.
If you're not dosing the fuel with pro-fst or similar then I would almost guarantee that a carbed bike would have issues.
In fact, I don't think I'd do any on the road carb tuning at all until the weather improves.
My bike would probably need a double dose on a day like today (m750 on std everything except open termis).

[Reaperman]

Well, if you were out on it today, I'd say that the damp and cold conditions were just about perfect for carb icing.
If you're not dosing the fuel with pro-fst or similar then I would almost guarantee that a carbed bike would have issues.
In fact, I don't think I'd do any on the road carb tuning at all until the weather improves.
My bike would probably need a double dose on a day like today (m750 on std everything except open termis).

I thought carb icing only occurs at lower temperatures, then again this is my first carbed bike. And not my last as I have an early bonnie being given to me in the next couple of days, hence why I want the monster finished an road worthy so I can focus all thoughts on the bonnie.

I'll put the monster to the side lines for now and come back to it in april when the weather has warmed slightly. I've got 1 or 2 more little jobs to do on it but they are easy fixes.

[utopia]

I thought carb icing only occurs at lower temperatures, .....

Its dependant on low temp AND moisture/humidity.
Of the two, the moisture seems to be the deciding factor as long as the temp is fairly low.
In other words, I would be more inclined to expect carb icing on a fairly cold, damp day than on a slightly colder, dry day.
Its all about the pressure in the inlet venturi being low enough to condense and freeze airbourne moisture ....but first there has to be sufficient moisture in the air.
Its obviously somewhat dependant on temperature as well, as pressure and temperature are linked, but in practice (and contrary to what you might intuitively expect), humidity seems to be the more critical factor.
This can be very surprising when it first happens. I've had carb icing issues on short runs in damp conditions when it hasn't really even been cold enough to bother with winter gloves. So surprising in fact that I didn't believe it myself until the pro-fst proved to be a total cure.
Engines with big cylinders are more prone, as each cyl sucks that much harder than say two smaller ones.
Then again, ducatis seem to be particularly bad for it....my 650 single dommie doesn't seem to suffer.

[Reaperman]

Hmm some interesting reading. So the bad foggy days we've had for the last week up here might be a massive factor in how poor my old monster runs. I'm so glad my monster is a tinker toy and not my main runner, I'll probably complain about it and not get it running perfectly how I want but I still won't sell it.

[Geoff Ives]

I'm sorry to state the obvious BUT are you using new petrol.
This modern rubbish quickly becomes 'Fire Retarndent'. This particilarly affects the carburated 600 engine.
I have a 600ss (same engine) and if I leave it over winter I need to drain and replace the fuel and particularly drain the carburettor float bowls. I don't get this problem with my M750 as I use it through the winter and I don't get it with the fuel injected ST2.
Good Luck.

[gary tompkins]

Its dependant on low temp AND moisture/humidity.
Of the two, the moisture seems to be the deciding factor as long as the temp is fairly low.
In other words, I would be more inclined to expect carb icing on a fairly cold, damp day than on a slightly colder, dry day.
Its all about the pressure in the inlet venturi being low enough to condense and freeze airbourne moisture ....but first there has to be sufficient moisture in the air.
Its obviously somewhat dependant on temperature as well, as pressure and temperature are linked, but in practice (and contrary to what you might intuitively expect), humidity seems to be the more critical factor.
This can be very surprising when it first happens. I've had carb icing issues on short runs in damp conditions when it hasn't really even been cold enough to bother with winter gloves. So surprising in fact that I didn't believe it myself until the pro-fst proved to be a total cure.
Engines with big cylinders are more prone, as each cyl sucks that much harder than say two smaller ones.
Then again, ducatis seem to be particularly bad for it....my 650 single dommie doesn't seem to suffer.

It's not just the moisture or humidity in damp air that is the problem, the water content suspended in petrol can also feeze in cold weather blocking the jets and starving the engine of fuel. This is something that additives like FST Pro help to prevent. This article is specific to aircraft engine icing, but the same principal applies to any aircooled petrol engine using carburettors. The petrol blends currently available also tend to have a far higher water content in a bid to reduce emissions, which also adds to the cold weather running problems.

http://www.fly13.co.uk/Tug/Carb%20Ice/Carb%20Icing.htm

The problem isn't isolated to the Ducati monster, but effects many aircooled and some watercooled bikes fitted with CV carbs. The Stock 1200 Buell/Harley CV carb is very prone to icing. Fortunately mine has a race spec HS40 Mikuni flatslide installed, which suffers zero icing in the same conditions. Several Kawasaki's (Ninja) had to have cooling mods to divert heated water to the carbs because the icing problem was so bad. If you do a google search many more bikes are mentioned - both japanese and european models.

[utopia]

Hmmm....the term "water content suspended in petrol" had me confused at first as I was under the impression that water was not soluble in petrol.
However, a bit of googling confirmed my suspicion that this solubility might be due to the ethanol content in modern fuels.
Getting mildly technical, it seems that basically water, being a polar molecule, is not soluble in petrol which is non-polar, but ethanol has both polar and non polar regions in its molecular structure, and so it wil mix with either or both. (btw, the term polar refers to the molecules having areas which are electrically positive or negative, rather than having a uniform spread of charge...so to speak.....and thus they exhibit electromagnetic attraction.).
However, I think that airbourne moisture is probably by far the most significant source of moisture affecting carb icing....though this is largely an informed guess on my part rather than a known fact.

Surprising then, that the 2 gallons of old petrol that I siphoned out of a tank containing a gallon of water, still seems to work in my dominator engine.
I know, I really should chuck it away, but its a bit of a disposal problem and anyway I have strong economic tendencies these days, so I've been mixing it with new fuel.
There's no way I'd use it in the monster though.

[Geoff Ives]

I put the syphoned off petrol in my car.
It is a humble Rover 200 and having fuel injection it does not give a problem also mixing 2 gallons of old petrol with 7 gallons of new would dilute the problem.

[gary tompkins]

Certain additives including Hydrous Ethanol are mixed to 'oxegentate' petrol and cut down emmisions. Since ethanol and water readily dissolve in each other, when ethanol is used as an additive in gasoline, water will actually dissolve in the blended fuel to a much greater extent than in conventional fuel. The amount of water that can be absorbed is temperature dependant, and the colder this temperature gets means that less water is held in solution. This is known as water phase separation, and can also happen when fuel is stored for long periods.