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Geoff Ives
10-02-2013, 03:57 PM
I have a M7509 (WET CLUTCH) and would like to use a full synthertic oil but various lists suggest semi synthetic for this bike. Has anyone experience to share?

rollo22
10-02-2013, 05:14 PM
Some one will be along soon.
But seem to remember that you need to use semi cos full will cause clutch slip.

gary tompkins
10-02-2013, 05:34 PM
Yep stick to semi

Main thing is to avoid any oils with lots of anti friction additives as it can cause clutch slip

Rally
10-02-2013, 05:37 PM
I once used fully on a Suzuki DR350, the clutch burnt out in no time. The lubrication properties of the fully are just too much for some wet clutches. I wouldn't risk it again myself.

Nickj
10-02-2013, 05:59 PM
Semi-synth works fine in mine and it's as far as you really ought to go in any older design engine.
The clutch may slip and even if you change the oil the friction plates can be stuffed.
Also it's way cheaper!!
Mines done 43K on standard garage grade 10:40 semi, gets changed every 3-5K (filter every other change) so it seems a waste to use expensive brand named oil if the technical spec is virtually identical other than being half the price and lacking a shiny label and coloured container.

jerry
10-02-2013, 08:23 PM
Air cooled m750 wet clutch use semi synthetic ,

utopia
11-02-2013, 06:28 PM
Recommended oil is Shell Advance Ultra 4T.
This is described as a fully synthetic oil, but is actually something of a special case and is often described as not being a "proper" full synthetic. This may be because it lacks some of the friction modifier additives that others contain, and hence it isn't so prone to causing the clutch slip associated with most full synthetics.
My 2000 M750 has run on this oil for about 11k miles now, and I've had no clutch problems. Mind you, I tend to be fairly gentle on clutches so its probably still in a fairly unworn condition.
However, I've been nervous about continuing to use it due to the large number of reports of full synth causing clutch slip.
In a recent phone call to G-tec for advice, I was told that they now use the semi-synth equivalent from Shell, which I believe is Advance VSX. I intend to switch to this at the next oil change.
While there is often good advice to be had from private owners, I'm more inclined to trust the extensive experience of a specialist Ducati workshop whose experience is far more wide ranging, as they will have stripped many engines and observed their state of wear resulting from the use of various different types of oil.

zhango
12-02-2013, 10:40 AM
utopia - my advice is to carry on using Shell Advance Ultra as it is an excellent oil, recommended by Ducati and your bike runs ok on it.

You are right that it is not a 'real' synthetic oil from an oil engineer's definition but it is legally called synthetic after a judge in a court case ruled that the oil had been a sufficiently modified mineral oil to define it synthetic. This opened the flood gates for the marketing guys and most of the oils that are called synthetic are really like Shell Advance and are Group 3 oils - with Group 4 and 5 being 'real' synthetics. An example of a Group 4 oil is Mobil 1 Racing 4T and a Group 5 is Motul 300V Factory Line. No oil company actually states what group their oil belongs to and this can only be assumed by looking at the Technical Data sheet.

The oil group is defined by the base stock and not the additive package but it is the additive package that makes an oil suitable for a bike with a wet clutch or not. Any oil that states 'energy saving' - 'fuel saving' - 'friction modified' will most likely cause clutch slip in a bike with a wet clutch. What you have to look for is that the oil complies with the requirements of Jaso MA - and Shell Advance Ultra does.

I find it disappointing that guys are put off using fully synthetic oil just because there are a few instances where clutches slipped which were assumed to be because the oil being used was fully synthetic but are likely to be because of the unsuitable additive package and the clutch was well worn anyway. I would be interested in knowing which make of oil the guys used who had clutch slip when using synthetic oil and we can look at the Tech Data sheet if it's available and try to understand why.

gary tompkins
12-02-2013, 04:38 PM
Shell Advance ultra used in a M600 with less than 10,000 miles on the clock

Clutch slipped like crazy until it was drained and replaced with Silkolene semi mineral 10/40

I was really peed off at wasting good money on expensive oil that I ended up chucking after 50 miles. This is why I now don't personally recommend full sythetic for wet clutch monsters. I've also heard of clutches needing new plates after contamination by full synthetic oils, at considerable expense to the owners. I just don't think it's worth risking on a wet clutch engine, when mineral oils work just as well and at far less expense.

zhango
12-02-2013, 07:11 PM
Thanks Gary but I can't explain that one - Advance Ultra does comply with Jaso MA2 and lots of Ducati bikes with wet clutches do use it ok. Fair enough if you had a problem so I can understand you saying what you do - I guess we'll just disagree on the suitability of fully synthetic oil.

Shell do have a very helpful Tech Dept so did you contact them? I would have wanted to get a sample to them for analysis.

utopia
12-02-2013, 08:49 PM
The last couple of posts illustrate exactly why I'm thinking of changing to the semi-synth equivalent to Advance Ultra 4T.....following a recommendation from a respected Ducati service dept with wide experience and possibly no commercial brand loyalties to rigidly adhere to.
I think it is probably true that the terms full-synth and semi-synth are fairly loose terms which can apply to oils which conform to different specific standards like JasoMA, group3,4,5 etc.
I suspect that some of the reputation for clutch slip comes from people using certain grades of "proper" full-synth with its friction modifiers.
On the other hand, there are cases like Gary's where the recommended "not quite full-synth...???" Advance Ultra 4 has caused problems....which were cured by changing oil to "normal" semi-synth.
Obviously the oil is the lifeblood of any motor, particularly an air-cooled one perhaps, and its good to use the best oil you can get your hands on.
Then again, it may be better for general engine protection to use a cheaper oil and change it more frequently, especially if the bike does short runs and sees much winter use.
And after juggling all those factors, the results of your choice don't usually show themselves until the engine has done a decent enough mileage on the same oil to show its long term effects on engine wear.
Bizarrely, my current stock of Advance Ultra 4T was purchased cheap from a local ducati main dealer who was changing over to a different brand....though I suspect this may have been for commercial reasons as much as anything.
And I have some Advance VSX which I bought by mistake as its in almost identical packaging...which then turned out to be the oil that I was advised to change to anyway.

...............:dizzy:

jerry
12-02-2013, 11:22 PM
shell ultra is not a proper class 5 full synthetic like motul technosynthesise 3000 15-50w which is a fully synthetic ester oil it is a class 4 synthetic made from a mineral ester , also it may be recommended by Ducati but it does not work well in wet clutch bikes ,
in 2 valve models it is not worth using a full synthetic .

gary tompkins
13-02-2013, 01:09 AM
Thanks Gary but I can't explain that one - Advance Ultra does comply with Jaso MA2 and lots of Ducati bikes with wet clutches do use it ok. Fair enough if you had a problem so I can understand you saying what you do - I guess we'll just disagree on the suitability of fully synthetic oil.

Shell do have a very helpful Tech Dept so did you contact them? I would have wanted to get a sample to them for analysis.

No I didn't contact Shell at the time

This happened when I owned my M600... about 13 years ago. I remember using Silkolene to replace the Shell Advance, because the bike shop I bought it from only sold Shell or Silkolene brand oils at that time. I did complain at the shop about the clutch slip, but the response I got was that it was my choice to use Shell Advance, so they weren't responsible for the outcome. It was a local Jap bike supplier by the way.. not a Ducati dealership.

shell ultra is not a proper class 5 full synthetic like motul technosynthesise 3000 15-50w which is a fully synthetic ester oil it is a class 4 synthetic made from a mineral ester , also it may be recommended by Ducati but it does not work well in wet clutch bikes ,
in 2 valve models it is not worth using a full synthetic .

2 valve engines like my 900ie are fine on synthetic oils, as the dry clutch won't be effected by slip. I currently run Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10/40 in trike and have done for the last 9000 miles, which is three changes as I replace oil every 3K. I get less oil consumption with Mobil than I did on other brands, and the engine seems to run cooler in summer temperatures. http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAUSENPVLMOMobil1_Motorcycle_Oils.aspx

utopia
13-02-2013, 02:28 AM
Hmmm...well I guess there's always the possibility that they put a different oil in by mistake, and didn't admit to it.
Or could it even be that a residue of the previous oil, trapped on the clutch plates, reacted in an odd way with the new oil to cause the slip...??? (I accept that this is a bit of an oddball notion, but just maybe...?)

Mostly, I tend to stick firmly to the manufacturers recommendations, and buy my oil from a manufacturer who has a reputation to protect and a large R&D budget.
How strange then, that the recommended tipple should have a rumoured dark side.
And is this just misinformed prejudice against its family name ?
If so, why has my local main agent changed brands, and another avoided the tainted moniker ?
Worse still, is this just a subtle, oil thread wind-up and I've taken the bait ?

Either way, I have a plan.....
I gonna stick to the Advance Ultra 4T as a test.
At least it will be a decent long-term test under constant conditions and up to now its been fine, but.....
If it does bugger the clutch, and I should need a new one, I'll damn well do a dry clutch conversion on it, and then I can use a proper full-synth, which I imagine will benefit the rest of the motor considerably.
In fact I might have just convinced myself there that, all things considered, I need the clanky noise after all.

Damn you, ukmoc, with your insidious, so called "oil" threads, surreptitiously luring the poor, innocent, monster lover into an ever higher state of modding compulsion.

zhango
13-02-2013, 09:11 AM
shell ultra is not a proper class 5 full synthetic like motul technosynthesise 3000 15-50w which is a fully synthetic ester oil it is a class 4 synthetic made from a mineral ester.
Not quite - Shell Advance Ultra is a Group 3 mineral oil and nothing to do with ester technology.

zhango
13-02-2013, 09:35 AM
I currently run Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10/40 in trike and have done for the last 9000 miles, which is three changes as I replace oil every 3K. I get less oil consumption with Mobil than I did on other brands, and the engine seems to run cooler in summer temperatures. http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAUSENPVLMOMobil1_Motorcycle_Oils.aspx
This is an excellent Group 4 oil and is what I am using - you are right in noticing that the engine runs cooler because one advantage of a real synthetic oil is that it transfers heat faster than a mineral oil so one very good reason to use it in the air cooled engines which can get hot in slow traffic.
This can be a disadvantage in the cold weather because we want to keep the oil temp above 85 degC to avoid condensation - I blank off the cooler which helps.

jerry
13-02-2013, 03:18 PM
Not quite - Shell Advance Ultra is a Group 3 mineral oil and nothing to do with ester technology.

Shell advertise it as a group 4 sythetic they have had a lot of issues over this as it is clearly mineral based and can be classified in some countries as group 3 ,only group 5 oils are fully synthetic ,,, ducati only promote it as they get sponsorship from shell.

zhango
13-02-2013, 04:52 PM
Group 4 are PAO 'real' fully synthetic and Group 5 are Ester 'real' fully synthetic with Group 3 being legally called fully synthetic in UK as it is a highly modified mineral oil.
Shell Advance Ultra looks like a Group 3 to me so do you have a link to show where Shell claim it is Group 4?

gary tompkins
13-02-2013, 11:08 PM
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-69341-shell-advance-ultra-4t-10w-40-performance-4-stroke-fully-synthetic-motorcycle-oil.aspx

Description in Shell's sales blurb quotes "Ultimate performance fully synthetic motorcycle oil"

So regardless of it being group 3 or 4... either the manufacturer is lying or it is a full synthetic oil

zhango
14-02-2013, 09:17 AM
GT - Shell are not lying because they can legally call it a fully synthetic oil (in UK at least) as it is a sufficiently modified mineral oil that allows them to use that name. So it is a fully synthetic oil but not from an oil engineer chemist's view.
The Group 3 oils, which I think Advance Ultra is, are very high quality oils but do lack some of the benefits of the Group 4 or 5 oils.

Flip
17-02-2013, 04:27 AM
One other thing to bear in mind with all these recomendations is that the manufacturers themselves have obviously got a deal with the oil companies and I think I am right in saying Ducati started recomending Shell products around the time of the TPG takeover while previously, when fully Italian owned by the Cagiva group they used Agip lubricants.....Funny how you don't see that brand in the UK anymore.

As far as the main dealers go in my opinion, yes they do see a lot of bikes and yes they would probably pick up on any problems early on in a bikes life (warranty etc.) but they rarely see the high mileage or older bikes to really see the long term effects. Therefore, a good independant specialist is probably a better guage for reliable advice and remember that although these engines (the air cooled ones at least) have been tweaked and twiddled over the years to give more performance and comply with various noise and emission laws etc. they are still the basic motor who's time line goes back to the Pantah days.

utopia
17-02-2013, 12:41 PM
As far as the main dealers go in my opinion, yes they do see a lot of bikes and yes they would probably pick up on any problems early on in a bikes life (warranty etc.) but they rarely see the high mileage or older bikes to really see the long term effects. Therefore, a good independant specialist is probably a better guage for reliable advice.

A good point.
This is why I went to G-tec for advice, thinking that they were independant, or at least more so than my local main dealer anyway.
Turns out they're perhaps not quite as fully independant as I thought, but probably not under the factory thumb either.

Does anyone know what Rosso Corse recommend ?

Headhunter
17-02-2013, 01:49 PM
Does anyone know what Rosso Corse recommend ?

Knowing the boys, probably baby!

Joking aside I think they use Motul, if I remember rightly. Have used Shell Advanced for the past 7 years in my 620ie - 70k on (at both temp extremes) and no complaints/issues from me.

Funkatronic
17-02-2013, 09:17 PM
pretty sure rosso corse use rock oil guardian in mine

i too have had bit of clutch slip on the s2r800 with fully synth oil

utopia
20-02-2013, 04:14 PM
i too have had bit of clutch slip on the s2r800 with fully synth oil.


But in the light of the thread comments so far, we really need to know WHICH full synth.

jerry
20-02-2013, 04:37 PM
Utopia , it does not matter just use any good quality oil brand, of the correct type see oil thread on DMF forum by george ciels

I use Putoline , Motul , mobil 1 but rock, silkolene , etc are all good .

Geoff Ives
21-02-2013, 10:50 AM
The reason I started this thread is that I obtained a lot of PETRONAS Full Synthetic foe £12.50 per 4 litre can.

urbanfireblade
22-02-2013, 06:35 PM
Lol, i love reading 'which oil' threads and watching everyone argue!
I've used Castrol Power 1 Racing 10w 40 Fully Synthetic in my Suzuki Bandit 1200 with way more torque and bhp than the older Monsters had and no clutch slip.
Just try it and see, if it slips then drain it our and replace with something else.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b151/urbanfireblade/castrol_zps94cba2c0.jpg

Petej
23-02-2013, 08:49 PM
See this has come up again :(. I have she'll advance FS ready to go in but as much as it 'might' be ok, I'd rather be putting the best/correct in first time.......

So what do I do people??

Pete

urbanfireblade
24-02-2013, 12:46 AM
I'd just use it Pete, thats what they came filled with originally.

Petej
24-02-2013, 08:05 AM
What full Synth bud?

BigOz
24-02-2013, 09:12 AM
My 696 runs on Shell Advance ULTRA 4T 10W-40 when changed by the dealer, I used to use Shell Advance ULTRA 4T 15W-50 whenever I changed it, 15W-50 because it is the recommended weight in the manual and I read in an article from Sigma Performance saying that they noticed the thicker oil tended to leave a persistent coating on the the valve gear when the engine is left standing the difference being mainly seen on the vertical cylinder.

The last time I changed the oil I used Motul 300V Factory Line 15W-50 and it could have been wishful thinking but the engine did seem to idle better and the clutch seemed more progressive with no sign of slip when the clutch is out.

I did have clutch issues a while back with the sudden onset of fairly bad clutch slip, but only at speed when full throttle was used in the higher gears, pulling hard in lower gears it stayed locked up fine, the dealer found the clutch was within tolerance but the plates were blackened and nasty, I've had no problems since they were changed but this issue was one of the reasons I decided to try Motul.

Andy

Funkatronic
25-02-2013, 07:51 AM
the fully synth that caused slipage was when i topped up a litre of repsols 4 10w-40 stroke motorcycle engine while touring in spain

jerry
01-05-2013, 08:34 AM
''eey up , a puwnd o lard and some nice chip fat is awl yas needs''

Mr Gazza
02-06-2013, 09:51 PM
This is a pretty technical debate with some very informed posts.

Just to come in at a lower level as it were.;

I am running a bike with a wet clutch and some 118bhp. Fully Synth is recommended for it, used to be Mobil 4T but now the factory recomends Castrol 4T. (politics and not oil chemistry I suspect)

The crucial things seems to be the "Jaso" spec and also to be sure to use MOTORCYCLE oil and not general motor oil intended for cars with dry clutches.
The Motorcycle oils do not, I am told, have the schlippy additives that the car oils have.

Given that the above posters are clearly better read on the subject than I, are my assumptions right?

Cheers

Gazza

zhango
02-06-2013, 10:02 PM
The crucial things seems to be the "Jaso" spec and also to be sure to use MOTORCYCLE oil and not general motor oil intended for cars with dry clutches.
The Motorcycle oils do not, I am told, have the schlippy additives that the car oils have.


Absolutely correct Gazza.

Despite what anyone else says, fully synthetic oils are not 'more slippery' than mineral oils - problems with clutch slip are because of an unsuitable additive package as you correctly say.

Dukedesmo
03-06-2013, 09:43 AM
The last time I changed the oil I used Motul 300V Factory Line 15W-50 and it could have been wishful thinking but the engine did seem to idle better and the clutch seemed more progressive with no sign of slip when the clutch is out.



Motul 300V leaves a film of oil that lasts for ages. :thumbsup:

I service my Bikes during the winter. In 2012 the last ride on the 916 was in late October/early November and I didn't get round to checking valve clearances until March this year, the rockers still had a good coating of oil on them despite being 'dry' for 4 months...

jerry
08-06-2013, 05:22 PM
Yes motul fully synthetic is brilliant very long lasting molecular adhesion means start up and cam, rocker damage is minimal its the only oil i would use in any desmoquattro

Wildfire
17-06-2013, 10:27 AM
I believe JASO MA and MA2 are for use with wet clutches and JASO MB is for dry clutches.

Unit 18
19-06-2013, 05:18 PM
If it's of any help guys, I've used Rock Synthesis 4 Racing for all the time I've been going (very occasionally Silkolene Pro 4 when it's not available) in both dry and wet clutch bikes with no problems at all.

Wildfire
12-07-2013, 10:17 AM
Just reporting back, but I've changed to Silkolene Pro 4 comp 10w-40 Fully Synthetic. It's rated JASO MA2 for wet clutches. No issues.