Fuelling issue

[Mr.Number]

S2R1000 - bike has a kn air filter and full arrow race system.

Valve check needed doing last week and so as it was service time had a new valve/shim kit from Ducati fitted.

Rode the bike to work and when hitting 80/90 it felt as though there was a restrictor kicking in and the power seems to dive, but maintaining throttle, the power eventually comes through.

Spoke to the mechanic and he put it on the dyno. Print out showed a massive dive at 8k revs. He stated that due to the new valve clearances, the bike is getting in more air and grabbing at more fuel.

Its interesting as the bike ran sweet when the original valve shims were in, even though the clearances were well out. He has set all the new clearances to what he referred to as 2 thousand. I remember looking at the ducati manual which showed them to be 0.1mm, which he said is '2 thousand'.

Anyway, his bottom line was the fuelling needs sorting and he recommended a pc. Iv read a few reports about these but the issue I have is that the arrow exhaust has a lambda hub to plug in the original sensor which it is at present. Therefore the ecu will still look to the lambda sensor for info.

I am of the opinion that a ducati performance ecu which is plug and play will do the job. Reason i think this is that ducati sell the termi kit with the exhausts, filter and dp ecu. Therefore the dp ecu is obviously capable of smoothing the fuel otherwise they wouldnt include it in the dp kit.

I am informed the dp ecu has 2 dials (front and rear cylinder) to either increase/decrease the fuel. The young mechanic stated that the dp ecu may not do the job as it is just a generic dp race map, whereas a pc is more flexible according to him. My point to him was that there is a dp ecu specifically for the S2R, which accommodates exhaust and air filter upgrades.

Has anyone been in this position, especially with an S2R1 ?

What would be the best option to smooth out the fuelling ?

Im going to look through the site as im sure there will be bits of info that may be useful, but wanted a fresh thread incase of any new info not already within the threads.

Thanks in advance Kev

[Starter Sprag]

0.1mm is close to 4 thou, not 2 thou

The openers should be set to 4 thou, and the closers set to < 2 thou

[urbanfireblade]

Yep. 1 thou is 0.025mm. So 2 thou is 0.05mm. Looks like he's set the openers wrong if they should be 0.1mm clearance. It's always better to have too big a clearance than too small, so I'd get that sorted pronto.

[Funkatronic]

the DP ECU was made for termi cans so fuelling on your arrows will be a bit different

dont bother with Power Commander its works but is limited, get your ECU remapped by BSD (http://bsd.uk.com/)

they can adjust a lot more (fueling, ignition, rpm limiter, Torque limiter, disable lambda sesnor, remove immobilizer etc), and at a lot higher detailed resolution than just the rough fueling mix PCIII can do

stevoo, pegboy and i have all had S2R 1000 setup by them with different exhausts, and the difference is unbelievable, the throttle consistency alone is worth having. your right hand feels directly connected to the back wheel. there were power and torque gains too
Pegboys ended up with 94RWBHP with arrow cans and DP decat pipe. mine only managed 88 with the pretty and noisy mivv x-cones, but the difference torque and in rideabilty in both bikes was night and day.

cost was £425 all inc vat, included ecu software licence, dyno time and fitting of sensor bosses on each head if necessary

Part of that cost pays for the licenece for your ecu to be altereted. once your ECU licence is paid for, BSD can make any future adjustments just for the cost of additional dyno time. in effect you now have a fully reprogramable ECU

you also get a copy of the original ecu settings map on a usb key, this can be written back to the ECU at a later date if you want to retun the bike to stock

compare that cost to a PCIII + Dyno time and its a no brainer

if you have the DP ECU as i understand it (from the fitting intructions i have seen for the dp ecu) , the lamda sensor is ignored so it can be unplugged from the exhaust and loom without adverse effects
you can buy a brass bung for the exhaust from arrow (or others it should be a standard M18 x 1.5 thread)

if you have not coded your DP ECU to the imobiiiser using the red key, get your original ECU remapped by BSD, and sell the DP one to fund it (un-coded one has got to be worth £150ish)

if peterbourough is too far to ride, you could get BLD (http://www.bldgroup.co.uk/service-repairs/motorcycle-delivery/) to ship it for £99 +VAT

[Capo]

"He stated that due to the new valve clearances, the bike is getting in more air and grabbing at more fuel"

Ehh???

[Dookbob]

Sounds like the guy who did the shims didn,t quite get it right.

[utopia]

Just to clarify, he's referring to "thousandths of an inch" and yes, he's got his conversion factor wrong...0.1mm=4 thou.
How long have you been running the different ecu and filter ? Long enough perhaps that it was ok before the valve clearances became worn ? If so, then it should still be fine now they've been readjusted.
Also, I agree with your suggestion that it seems unlikely that your worn clearances should have magically cured an inherent fuelling issue.
I know next to nothing about electronics (I've always had carbs) but without wishing to judge your mechanic on the basis of a little secondhand info, his words do nevertheless sound like hollow, techno-waffle to me.
Have you considered checking the valve clearances yourself ? It might sound daunting, but its the adjustment process that gets tricky....merely checking them is actually fairly simple and holds little or no threat of costly error. There's a good video (Ducatitech) and the 2-valve motors are a pleasure to work on.
BSD is a good suggestion....they do a lot of work for the bike press so their reputation has to be good. That's where I'd take mine.

[Mr.Number]

Im not running a different ecu. From stock, i installed a new full arrow race system and kn air filter. Bike was running fine even though my valve clearances were out. Took the bike in, had a new shim set installed and the clearances set and whilst the engine feels tighter and more responsive, the fuelling is terrible and the bike loses power dramatically at high revs.

What his account is, that due to the new clearances the air ratio is different, causing the fuelling issue.

Spoke with ducati manchester today and the mechanic there gave the following measurements

Opening valve clearance 0.05mm - 0.15mm
Closing " " 0 - 0.2mm

The measurements provided by him were that he set them 'all' at "two thou"

If two thou = 0.05 then he has set the opening valve clearances at the tightest of the range (0.05).
In the closing clearances 0.05 will sit ok within the range.

Ducati manchester stated they would set the opening clearances at the wider end of the range, being 0.15 or 6 thou, reason for this is that over time the clearance may become tighter, so this allows for that event.

When I rang the guy who did my bike, firstly i asked him to confirm he set them at 2 thou, which he agreed with. When I then explained the ducati mechanics theory, he stated "it doesnt always work like that and for a start off it depends on the shim size you get".

Anyway he went on to say that hes not stupid and wouldnt have the clearances so tight and that "i didnt set them all at two thou" which contradicts earlier comments. What i would have liked is a written record of what settings he has given to each clearance. He hasnt got that unfortunately. I feel as though i could have run rings around this guy if i had continued questioning him. At one point he did get flustered and said " look your engine is running isnt it, it hasnt blown up on you has it".

Following the conversation I wasnt left with much confidence in this guy, so wont be taking the bike to him anymore. He has lost my business which is a shame for both of us as his location was convenient.

In addition to this, I have read further info on the net, and the symptoms of suffering a loss of power can be linked to tight clearances. Without knowing exactly what he has set them to at the moment, I cant make a judgement on that, but also sometimes on tick over it dips to almost stall and has a couple of times. Tight clearances, so im led to believe can also contribute to a poor idle.

Iv agreed a price with bsd to get it sorted. Whilst doing so, im sure he can check the current clearances. Even if this guy has set them a little on the tight side, i still think the main issue is the fuelling, which as funk has said, bsd will sort.

Need a new mechanic !

[Dookbob]

I can't quite get my head around this. The bike was running well, you had the valves re-shimmed, now it aint running well. So what has this got to do with the fuelling. The "mechanic" said it depends on what shims you get. You get whatever shims are required FFS. Then you might have to reduce some of them to get exactly the clearance that is required. You have to avoid this guy as you have found out the hard way, but the next step has got to be to have the valve clearances checked again, and if necessary re- adjusted.
I could tell you a story about Ducati trained mechanics and valve shimming, but I won't, it might put you off going anywhere near a Ducati agent again, and the sad thing is that unless you are mechanically adept, then you have to go somewhere.

[Mr.Number]

Dook it is the hard way and nothing pains me more than having to 'give someone a go' to find if they are trustworthy or not. I'm going to take it to bds, comes recommended by many, including a couple on here. I will find out if he can also check the clearances

[utopia]

Im not running a different ecu.

Sorry....slip of the brain, I meant exhaust and filter.

This mechanic sounds a bit dodgy to me.
His comment that "your bike hasn't blown up, has it ?" is unprofessional.

Sadly, I too can confirm Dook's comment about (some) trained Ducati mechanics and valve shimming.
A good mechanic is worth his weight in gold. Its not just about their training, its about their personal skill.
There are many who can talk a good job, but fewer who can actually deliver one.

Personally, I don't see valve clearances as a one-off service item.
I think its important to accumulate a record of what the clearances were at each check, what adjustments are made and when, and preferably a list of the shim sizes that are in place.
That way you can see the full picture and know what to expect at the next service, as well as spot any accelerated wear etc.
Unfortunately, I can understand that some mechanics might be reluctant to provide this information. For a start, it takes much more time to produce such a report, and it also puts the spotlight perhaps a little too uncomfortably on the guy doing the work.
I've never asked for this information, but I expect that my request would be denied anyway, or else conveniently overlooked. Not to mention pi55ing the mechanic off.
For this reason, I always do my own clearance checks and adjustment. This also creates some continuity in the measurements, as its a little bit subjective anyway, and this could be an issue if different people take the measurements each time.
I don't know, but BSD just might be prepared to provide the info, as they do have a good reputation.
However (and you can see this coming, can't you ?) I would once again suggest that you might try checking the clearances yourself (and keeping a record, obviously).
I myself was spooked about doing it the first time, but although its a little tricky to get an accurate measurement, there is little to fear in terms of messing anything up if you're just doing the checking. Like I said, its the adjustment that carries a potential hazard if you get it wrong, but merely measuring holds no particular terrors.

Overly tight clearances on a conventional engine can prevent the valves closing fully, causing them to leak with consequent loss of power.
In a desmo engine, there is the additional, and considerable danger of a mechanical interference between the cam and the opening and closing rockers when the valve closes without sufficient "slack" in the system.
Personally, I'd rather set them a little loose and accept a minute loss of peak power and a little more noise, than go anywhere near leaving them too tight.
As has already been said, "setting them all to 2 thou" is a crude simplification of the actual specs, but does neverthless fall within the tolerances, so would probably be ok, if done accurately. In this case I'm not totally confident that it has though. And the dyno shows an "issue" so the alarm bells are ringing a little.

[gary tompkins]

Incorrect valve shimming can wreck an engine. The Desmo valve gear could force the valve into it's seat if clearance is wrong, and the head of the valve can eventually snap off and drop into cylinder. I've seen this happen to a couple of monsters and it wrote off the motor. Spares for top end rebuilds are hard to get hold of and mega expensive.

[Mr.Number]

The bike was running fine until the new shim set and adjustments were made. I don't think this guy has got the measurements badly wrong. However the changes made have caused the loss of power and the idle issue. As I've said,he thinks its the new clearances affecting the fuelling.

[Capo]

He thinks wrongly

[urbanfireblade]

I'm sure BSD will sort it for you, Utopia is right in his statement about overly tight clearances and the dangers, especially on these engines, i'd refrain from riding it till the service day if it was me. Just to be safe.

[Mr.Number]

...well this matter was sorted. The bike was taken to Ducati Manchester who were excellent. The outcome was the mechanic, who runs a company called Hammer and Tongs in Warrington had set the valve clearances wrong. Specifically far to tight on the opening valves. Ducati confirmed that due to this the bike was running badly.

Upon riding the bike back from the Manchester workshop it ran superb.

When I rang the mechanic, I requested a refund on his labour but had no issue paying for the parts he got in (new shims) to do the job. He replied stating he wanted to see the Ducati paperwork. In response I asked him for the paperwork generated from his work, his reply was he printed it off the day I collected the bike but I never took it with me. I know this to be false. He then continued that he therefore put the paperwork in the bin !

I find it difficult not to label this guy a cowboy....he has told me to claim through his insurance !

Great guy !

[urbanfireblade]

Take him to the small claim courts. Will be easily dealt with then.

[gary tompkins]

Make sure the feckwits details are published on as many forums as possible

Idiots like him shouldn't be let within 100 yards of any motorcycle let alone a Desmo :mad:

Hope you get a refund

[Capo]

Hammer & Tongs sounds like a blacksmiths does he shoe horses as well?

[jerry]

Hammer and tongs pongs ....let him work on Harleys they have hydraulic valve clearances

[Mr.Number]

Thankfully I paid for his labour with my bank debit card, having informed the bank of my misadventure, they will debit my account with the full amount and then investigate his service. I am of the mindset to put a full report together and lay an information with the small claims court. This will include that he put me off the road for 13 days. I know that it only took 2 days to get the parts in as I telephoned the supplier who are well known and they provided me with the delivery date. He also challenged this saying he only had the bike for one week !

Anyway unfortunate to have come into contact with such a business but there you go, you never know until you try them.

[utopia]

Sadly, it seems that this guy has acted like a cowboy at every stage, so the label seems justified.
Its a fair bet that he hasn't done of lot of work on desmos before.
Which leads me to a theory......
The half rings that retain the closing shims deform in use, and become unidirectional, ie if you put old ones back the other way up it alters the valve clearance. Its like putting new ones in, which also has the effect of altering the clearance, by perhaps one shim size.
The issue was raised in a recent thread where this bedding in of the half rings was suggested as a reason for valve clearances becoming more stable over time.
Maybe this guy has done his measurements, ordered the shims, then found it didn't work out quite as he was expecting when he put them in.
I don't speak from huge experience here, but it certainly happened to me (though I spotted it and corrected accordingly).
If there's any truth in this theory, then you have to accept that all the half rings were replaced randomly, and therefore could be subject to some bedding in over the next few miles. Or perhaps Ducati Manchester fitted new half rings when they re-did the clearances. Either way, it might be worth rechecking them earlier than you otherwise might have.
Just a thought.

I have to say that I would be wary of a mechanic who traded under the name of Hammer and Tongs.
They either don't understand the blacksmith connotations, or worse they don't care or think it apt.

Hope you get your cash back for the labour at least.
Arguably, the parts were falsely ordered too, not to mention any potential strain on your motor. Not that I'm in favour of sticking the knife in at all, but the labour cost really should be refunded.
Can't see the need for his paperwork. If D.M. successfully remedied an accepted problem by redoing the valve clearances, then what's to argue ?

[Funkatronic]

this is what small claims court is for. stick the knife in