squeaky rose joints

[utopia]

Some time ago I had a squeak from the rear suspension which I eventually traced to one of the rose joints at the bottom of the "hoop".
I dosed it heavily in GT85 (my new favourite magic spray) and it went away.
Further (proper) lube was obviously required, but I assumed that the rose joint was a sealed unit and therefore this was difficult. I was thinking that replacement was probably the best plan.
Then I was bimbling through some old threads the other day and I came across the info that these joints actually do have oiling/greasing points built in. They are difficult to spot, particularly if, like me, you don't really expect them to be there anyway, but they are there if you look hard enough.....they are basically a small hole sealed with a spring-loaded ball bearing.
Just thought it worth flagging this up, as I have never before seen any mention of them in any maintenance schedule, so I guess most folk will be unaware of their presence.
Mine were inconveniently hidden on the forward side of the rose joints where the tight angle of the hoop to the swingarm makes them hard to spot and similarly hard to access for lubricating, so I plan to turn the rose joints around. This will obviously raise the rear ever so slightly, but I guess the effect will be so small as to be negligible.
For the lube, I plan to inject sae90 gear oil via a small syringe....unless anyone has any better suggestions.

[Nottsbiker]

I'd have thought they were for grease not oil fella

[Kato]

Why muck about when new ones are around 8 or 9 quid each, these are notorious for drying out and getting squeaky and have been known to fail which would not be good if you happen to be lent into a corner at the time.

try these guy's http://www.mcgillmotorsports.co.uk for new joints

[Capo]

These lube points you speak of are not fitted to latter bikes. SAE90 would be a suitable lubricant.

[Nickj]

Wondered what those were for! That'll give me another little thing to do at the weekends

[gary tompkins]

There are micro 'pen style' oilers available - may work on this type of rose joint

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Aluminium-Precision-Mini-Oiler-Technicians-Hobbyists-Craftsmans-Engineers-/170831385834?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item27c65814ea

[Starter Sprag]

The correct tool is a small 'pump' action grease gun, with a 'cone' adaptor

Place 'cone' point firmly against grease nipple, slowly push end of pump

New grease goes in, old grease comes out

[utopia]

Thanks for all the replies.
I agree that grease would be a more suitable lube, but I couldn't see quite how to get it in there.
I'm not familiar with the type of adaptor of which you speak, Sprag, though I did rather fancy that there might be some sort of correct tool out there.....I will see if I can locate one, or maybe make something suitable. Would that be a hard rubber cone (to effect a good seal) or just a steel one ? I can see how a steel one might work if the point was fine enough.
I rather like the pen oiler, GT, but only because it would be an amusing, over the top, engineers pocket essential. I'm not sure that it would be beefy enough to push the lube point open though, so might be no more effective than the syringe (plus some sort of prong to open the "valve")
Regardless of their low cost, I would much prefer to keep the existing joints well lubed, rather than replace them on a regular basis. Of the two options, this seems to be the least hassle by far, as well as the most reliable, particularly if they're notorious for drying out.
Its interesting that the lube points are omitted from later models. I think I can see the process now....designer correctly specifies a joint with lube points but it all breaks down when the manual writers fail to include them in the maintenance schedule and the assembly dept fits them the wrong way round anyway, so nobody is using the lube points, so ultimately they're redundant and are omitted entirely. Or maybe the suppliers simply stopped making rose joints with lube points in the first place.
Either way I'm not all that surprised, as modern design trends and throw away consumer culture seem to be trying to make the old grease gun a thing of the past. The suspension linkage on my dominator is similarly afflicted, where older designs featured grease nipples which are omitted from later models, which then require a full stripdown to regrease, which nobody bothers to do until its too late and the bushes are shot.
So, I will extract mine for inspection, and if still in good nick turn them round for easier access, then see if I can make some sort of cone adaptor for my grease gun, probably in steel or brass. Failing that, l'll go with the thick oil and syringe/prong method.
Expect another lengthy and rambling report in due course.

[gary tompkins]

Don't forget the other suspension joint need greasing too

They may not get exposed to weather/crud or jet washing like the rose joints... but still need some love

[Starter Sprag]

Check out various 'pump' action grease guns for sale

The 'cone' or 'pointed' end fitting is required, either steel or brass

The guns are small, holding a small but ample amount of grease

As said, the other components of the suspension also require greasing, But, they DON'T have grease nipples ! so a complete strip-down is required !

BTW, if your rose-joints have started 'squeaking' then they are knackered anyway

[Dookbob]

If you turn one of the joints round to make the lube nipple visible and accessible you will have an uneven length one side from the other. Just slip the joint out of the swing arm bracket, spin the centre bush by 90 degrees, this exposes a gap between inner and outer bearing surfaces which allows you to push some fresh grease into the joint. I have tried to inject various types of lube through these lube points with every kind of device you can think of, and never once have I managed to get anything through them. I buy Teflon coated rose joints now, for 10 quid each inclusive of postage from Mc.Gills, I have a pair on their way to me as we speak. Agree with Starter Sprag, if they squeak bin them.

[gary tompkins]

Once joints start squeaking they usually snap pretty soon afterwards. Gadget had both go on his 600 collapsing the rear suspension. Luckily it was at relatively low speed in a straight line. At high speed on a corner.... game over.

[crust]

Bicycle shops, in particular mountainbike shops have a grease gun that screws onto a grease in a large toothpaste tube. These have a conical point that is ideal for squeezing grease into the rose joint.

Also very usefull for dispensing small amounts of grease onto chains and other greaseworthy spots, much better than the standard dipping a finger - wipe excess off on jeans method.

However if yours have reached the squeaking stage I reckon that fatigue will have started in the threaded portion, given the cheapness of replacement cost I'd start with fresh ones.

[purplebug]

Mine started creaking today, got a right fright as it is a horrid sound. Traced it to rose joint on right side. How are these changed and where's best place to get them? What/who is mcgills?

[slob]

link on post #3

[purplebug]

LOL, how did I miss that !!! easy to change?

[Zimbo]

They're easy to change. Support the bike, undo the nuts on the pins holding the rose joint to the swinging arm, remove pins.
Undo locknuts on rose joints and unscrew from suspension hoop.
Put locknuts on new rose joints, screw new rose joints into hoop end to same length as old ones, refit pins to swinging arm, do up locknuts.

Bearing suppliers generally have rose joints in stock, often known as JAM-10.

[gary tompkins]

Easy as long as the rose jounts, rear suspension, fasteners etc.. are not seized solid. A few hours work can become several days due to a few dodgy nuts. Removing the cans if low mounted also improves access. You need to support frame when hoop's disconnected to stop suspension collapsing.

[utopia]

As Zimbo says, but just to clarify........I haven't done mine yet, but I would think that you'd need to support the bike off the engine or frame in such a way that the rear suspension is unloaded, but the rear wheel is still just touching the ground.

ps... sorry Gary, I hadn't seen your post.

[Capo]

Easy as long as the rose jounts, rear suspension, fasteners etc.. are not seized solid. A few hours work can become several days due to a few dodgy nuts. Removing the cans if low mounted also improves access. You need to support frame when hoop's disconnected to stop suspension collapsing.

Indeed, Ducati don't lubricate the threads of the rose joints and being disimilar metal in a spray zone, they can sieze solid, hold in a vice so you can get a safe torque on it. Remember one is left hand thread indicated by a score on the hexagon.

[a7avenger]

Capo are you referring to the rear hoop rose joints?
Both of those are right hand thread on my bike, the gear linkage rod has a right and left hand rose joint.

[purplebug]

Got them both off but missed the bit about taking weight off suspension so its dropped!! need to invite the mates round for a lift back up LOL
Mcgills supplied 2 for £20 whilst Ducati Glasow wanted £56 each OMG!!!

Both are RH thread on my M750.

[purplebug]

Done them today easy peasy. I lifted while my ten year old lad put bolts back in :)

[Dookbob]

Both of mine are right hand thread too, 2001. M600

[utopia]

Got round to doing them the other day.
It was a breeze, even singlehanded....raised the rear via a piece of wood under the rear of the engine and my two ancient but very trusty screw jacks.
Both rose joints had picked up/scored a little and were a bit stiff, and although both still probably had sufficient free movement, this was limited to just a few degrees.
I cleaned them both up to restore full movement, regreased them and replaced them (but with the lube points now to the rear and accessible).
I did consider fitting new ones (your point re fatigue was a decent one, Crust), but as mine had not been squeaking for long, I decided that I would prefer to keep the old ones with their lube points, rather than fit new ones which may not have them (though Dook's suggestion of teflon coated ones was also a good one).
Each joint was rotated by half a turn, thus retaining balanced adjustment on both sides.
Up to now I have tried to inject grease using a std grease gun but using a thin piece of rubber with a hole in it between the gun and the nipple to try to effect a seal........it didn't work, so for now they are just greased by hand until I can get round to making a suitable conical adapter.

I must say that I'm surprised at ducati for not bothering to fit the rose joints the right way round so that greasing is simple, and in particular for failing to include them in their maintenance schedule.
Maybe they are less prone to failure in the italian climate, but thats hardly a valid excuse for an international manufacturer these days.

Anyway, all seems well for now.
No doubt I will post further ramblings on the success or otherwise of the conical grease gun adaptor, once I've had a go at making one.
Thanks again for all the input.

[gary tompkins]

I would say it's something worth doing at least every year, depending on mileage and weather conditions during that period. The grease in situ methods fine if you can ensure it's actually getting intobearing and working. The lazy option of pressure washing bikes has a lot to answer for.

[utopia]

Agreed on all counts, Gary.
I have never used a pressure washer, though I suspect that a previous owner may well have done so in the bike's early years, and as you suggest, the rose joints would be particularly susceptible.
In the absence of being able to lube them through the grease points, I would fancy that spray grease...the sort that's full of propellant and fizzes around for a while....would be a good alternative.
I would be inclined to do this as frequently as I checked my tyre pressures maybe.....particularly in the winter.

[purplebug]

less mess and hassle is replacing them with the £20 for a pair teflon ones!! ;)

[don_matese]

Anyone know what size rose joints i need for a 95 m600?

[Saint aka ML]

Ok so to get it right washing bike with pressure hose kills them, not washing the bike kills them, from experience not using a bike kills them, high mileage kills them ... we are doomed. My started squicking after about 500 miles from new grrrr 7k miles later still same noise.

[Zimbo]

Anyone know what size rose joints i need for a 95 m600?

JAM10 is what you need.

[gary tompkins]

Ok so to get it right washing bike with pressure hose kills them, not washing the bike kills them, from experience not using a bike kills them, high mileage kills them ... we are doomed. My started squicking after about 500 miles from new grrrr 7k miles later still same noise.

If you've done 7000 miles with the squeak it probably isn't the rose joints causing it

I would have expected them to have seized and snapped by now

Might be another joint causing it on the rear suspension link. My advice is to overhaul and lubricate the rose joints properly, then if it still squeaks investigate it further. If you are in any doubt how serious this issue is I suggest you have a word with Gadget, and ask him just how entertaining it was to have your rear suspension collapse at speed :on:

[satan916]

Replace 'em, not worth the potential grief they could cause

[Saint aka ML]

I know it is rose joints as if hoop is gone nothing squicks I also know my rose joints have full movement but still squick. Had it off about 2k miles ago as it pissed me off. Good test I found when it squicks and you want to test if it is rose joints use some kind of oil in spray can (like my chain lube) on rose joints and see if it stops for a bit.

[gary tompkins]

Then strip, clean and grease them properly and stop wasting your time with spray lube

If they have been poorly maintained for thousands of miles they are probably shot anyway

[Wasta]

I know I need the JAM 10 rose joints but can someone tell me the thread size as they range from M3 to M16.
I'm not being lazy, I don't have my bike here and would like to order a pair for my return home. I'm guessing M8 or 10.

Cheers


Edit to add;

In a rare moment of clarity, I'm thinking the 10 refers to the thread size. Can someone more informed veryfy this please.

[satan916]

I know I need the JAM 10 rose joints but can someone tell me the thread size as they range from M3 to M16.
I'm not being lazy, I don't have my bike here and would like to order a pair for my return home. I'm guessing M8 or 10.

Cheers


Edit to add;

In a rare moment of clarity, I'm thinking the 10 refers to the thread size. Can someone more informed veryfy this please.

Correct, they are indeed M10 (they should both be right hand thread)

[Saint aka ML]

Are these any good:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M10-x-1-5mm-Male-Rose-Joint-Rod-End-Right-Hand-Thread-HIGH-PERFORM-MMSAK10T-/180981286789?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item2a23534785

[Saint aka ML]

Or are those the bet?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M10-x1-5mm-Male-Rod-End-Rose-Joint-Right-Hand-Thread-10mm-BRONZE-LINER-MMSAK10B-/380472819052?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item5895f27d6c

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M10-Male-RH-Rose-Joint-ULTRA-HIGH-STRENGTH-PERFORMANCE-/180765443779?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item2a1675c6c3

[satan916]

I'm no metallurgist, but I've always gone by the mantra "Ya gets what ya pays for", so I would say the most expensive ones are the best (no doubt someone will contradict me). These are the ones I replaced my squeaky ones with, and are working fine (that's the £10.25 ones to you).

[Saint aka ML]

Do not care Satan as long as they fit 10.25 set it is.

[Wasta]

I'm with Satan on this. Ordering a set from McGills tomorrow.

[JuZ]

I've just ordered some too, mine were squeaky until WD40 shut them up, so it's time to replace them.
I'm not keen on the rear suspension collapsing under me!

[Flip]

In my original genuine workshop Ducati quote 'white grease' (which is marine grade grease) to be used in that application.

Replaced mine ages ago from BSL (are they still going?) for around a tenner and as Zimbo says JAM10's are what you need and if I remember correctly there was a suffix for one with the grease point and ones without.

While you're messing about with the rose joints it may be worthwhile experimenting winding each out from the hoop 10-20mm (remember to count each evenly and fit a lock nut up to the hoop itself) as, depending on how you like the bike to feel it will speed up the steering a bit but more importantly get rid of that 'wishy washy' feel tipping into corners at the front....try it you might like!

[gary tompkins]

http://www.rodends.co.uk/pages/Tech-Information.html

BSL are still trading but couldn't find JAM10 listed on the website

I have also used this company for rose joint's before... mainly on gear linkages though

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/McGill-Motorsports/Metric-Male-High-Performance-/_i.html?_fsub=13104120&_sid=222097034&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322

[Wasta]

When I fit the rose joints I'm also fitting some risers to lift the rear. I got them from one of the aftermarket Ducati firms, not sure who now.
I'm told they make a big difference to the handling.

[utopia]

Ha...bet you didn't expect a reply at this hour.

Raising the rear will have a number of effects, the main one being to quicken the steering (by steepening the fork angle).
Thats the same thing as saying "it makes the steering have less straight-line stability", ie the front is more prone to flap about under the slightest provocation.
Its all a question of what you're trying to achieve, but personally I find that with my 750 (on basically std settings tailored to my body weight) the steering is fine at speed (as far as my riding style can tell anyway) but on slow turns, if anything it already tends to fall into the turn a little too quickly.
Its pretty stable at speed, but the front has gone a tiny bit shimmery on the odd occaision, so I think it must be fairly close to its ideal limit.
For these reasons, when I turned my rose joints round to give better access to the grease points, I was careful to only move them by half a turn, so as to minimise the raising of the rear.
Sorry if I'm just saying stuff that you already know, but from your post it just seemed like maybe it would be worth saying that, when you test the new set-up, you should be looking out for an increased tendency to fall into slow turns, and more importantly for high speed instability over bumps, white lines or when the front goes light.
Basically, what I'm saying is that quicker steering might be appropriate on a smooth race track, but is less so for a street bike on bumpy roads and greasy surfaces.

A secondary, but worthwhile benefit will be a little extra ground clearance around the footpeg/can area.
I've often considered raising mine at the rear for this reason alone but if I did, I think I would also raise the front at the yokes to restore the steering angle.
You could try this yourself perhaps, if you find later on that you want a quick fix for an over-raised rear.

The above is mostly theoretical mind...I don't have masses of practical set-up experience.
'scuse the pontification.
Here endeth.......:rolleyes:

[Wasta]

Thanks for the reply Utopia, you must be having a sleepless night!
I was thinking of raising the forks in the yokes to balance the bike out. It steers a little slowly at the minute but probably raising the rear 20/25mm would be way too much. The extra ground clearance
is really what I'm after.
Thanks for the input though, you can never have too much knowledge.

[Saint aka ML]

I have rear adapters and rose joints out to max. Rear is still not night enough but can not go higher. Forks are dropped like hell. It tips left right smoothly and quickly but accelerating over for example white line makes a small tank slapper .... hence damper is in the box as to be fitted.

[Wasta]

I have a damper fitted, not sure of the make or how good it is though, was on the bike when I bought it.

[Dirty]

Looking at getting some new rose joints. The links on this page all point to M10 thread with 10mm holes but my pins are 8mm. Is there a bush or spacer already in there (I just removed the nut, not the whole pin to look)

[utopia]

..... (I just removed the nut, not the whole pin to look)

I don't remember a bush in mine, but it was a while ago.
And now that you mention it, I find myself wondering whether or not I remember that the pins have a 10mm dia shank but are reduced to 8mm for the thread.
But both of these are vague half-memories....and there aren't any giveaway photos in Haynes that I can see.
Can you push the pin back a bit to get a look at the shank from the other end ?

[Wasta]

I fitted the new roses and the Luigi Moto spacers a few months ago. I didn't need to alter the forks at all. The bike is quicker steering now but doesn't feel any higher IYKWIM.

[Dukedesmo]

Looking at getting some new rose joints. The links on this page all point to M10 thread with 10mm holes but my pins are 8mm. Is there a bush or spacer already in there (I just removed the nut, not the whole pin to look)

I fitted the McGill stainless fittings which are definitely superior to the original.

They have the same size hole as the thread; i.e. 10mm/10mm but the original Ducati part is the same and has a bush fitted (at least mine did) which can be carefully tapped out and refitted in the new part.

[Dennis menace]

I bought these and they fitted straight in on my M600. Good price and fast delivery. I had to reuse the bush for the bolts from the original Ducati bush but had no problem.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M10-Male-RH-Rose-Joint-ULTRA-HIGH-STRENGTH-PERFORMANCE-/180765443779?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item2a1675c6c3#ht_1502wt_952

[Dirty]

Aha, thanks Utopia and Duke and Dennis, love this site! That's certainly saved me getting the step ladder and straps out just for a look :)

[pompone]

Got mine at marksman bearings Dirty. Let me know if you're ordering as i need bits and we could split postage :)

[Dirty]

Got mine at marksman bearings Dirty. Let me know if you're ordering as i need bits and we could split postage :)

Ah, just ordered 2 from Mcgill via ebay, sorry mate

[Darren69]

Aha, thanks Utopia and Duke and Dennis, love this site! That's certainly saved me getting the step ladder and straps out just for a look :)

I'm going to be getting one of these at the recommendation of others on here:-

http://www.becker-technik.com/

[Dirty]

I'm going to be getting one of these at the recommendation of others on here:-

http://www.becker-technik.com/

Yes they do look good