Daytime headlights

[utopia]

So what are your thoughts then ?

Personally, I'm not a fan (unless visibility is poor, obviously).
At first sight it seems like a sensible idea. After all, being more visible can only be a good thing....right ?
But in bright conditions, I think its overkill as a bike is perfectly visible to a suitably attentive driver.
No harm done though, you might say, and up to now I would agree.
There's also the chance that it makes other drivers more complacent as they get to expect the light and are then more likely not to notice those without them.
So maybe we'd better ALL use daytime lights then...?
It wouldn't be so bad if the cars hadn't started doing it too (often having no option cos the lights are hard wired). Suddenly the bikes with lights on disappear in the confusion of other lights, and the unlit ones become almost invisible. On top of that, by making perfectly visible objects even more noticeable, other things like cyclists, pedestrians, dogs, cats, kids kicking a ball around, even road signs, all become relatively less obvious.
I've even seen bright red, double-decker buses using headlights on bright summer days. What's the point of that ?
Trouble is, the more others do it, the more the rest are forced to do likewise or risk being lost in the dazzling brightness of the other vehicles.
On a technical note, I guess there would also be some benefit to the charging system, as the reg/rec wouldn't have to dump so much heat if the lights were using more of the alternator's output.

So now I'm confused. What to do for the best ?
What do you lot all do ? I bet most of you switch them on.
It does seem rather like the slippery slope to dazzlingly blind confusion though.

Obviously there are exceptions.
Coming back from Brands Hatch BSB, around the M25 amongst hundreds of bikes, many of whom (including myself on occaision) were constantly filtering between the lanes, it makes sense to have your lights full on.

I sometimes wonder whether it would be a good idea to have all bikes showing a hard-wired daytime light, but in a different colour, so that we still stand out even when other vehicles have their lights on too. But which colour (that wasn't already spoken for) ? How about purple ? Or green, perhaps ? Can't see there being the political will to do it though.

[BluprintZ]

I'm with you on this one Jeff mate.
As you mentioned, when filtering, it would be a good idea to have the lights on, when i'm in the car, i must admit that a glance in the mirrors does make me more aware of a vehicle with lights on, whatever that vehicle may be.
I don't remember having the lights on very often on the M900, i didn't use it much at night time really but i did put them on occasionally when filtering or if the weather was a bit dull.

The Triumph on the other hand, has the lights hard-wired, i have no control over them, other than dip`n main beam, they are on all the time and i'm not sure i'm happy with that...or not.
One thing i have noticed though, is that with bikes that have their headlights on, i've become aware that it can be difficult to be sure at what speed they are approaching.
It's a bit like night riding/driving, you can be sat at a junction and the car coming along the road, especially the unlit country roads, can take longer to get to you than you thought they should, or indeed vise-versa, they can be on top of you in seconds, the headlights don't seem to let you judge what speed the vehicle is approaching, in either case, i usually wait until they have passed, just to be ultra sure.

I'm in two minds about this subject, i think there are plus and minus points for both arguments but it seems that the powers-that-be, may well take the option out of our hands, if they haven't already.
Be interesting to hear other opinions and whether all new bikes are now being built with the lights hard-wired, due to some EU legislation.

Interesting thread Jeff, old chap.

I thank you.

G ; )

[Nickj]

If they aren't looking they won't see you..

If you strapped your bike ontop of a bright red bus, had all the lights on and threw in a few dancing girls ... they still won't see you if they don't look..

If everyone is running lights and you are being followed by a normal(ish) driver with a pair of healights and fog lights on then your piddly headlight will be swamped.
In daylight you'll be just visible maybe, twighlight and dark you've got a magic invisibility cape on.. LOL Seems some days we have that anyway!!

[Saint aka ML]

Yyy all new bikes/cars have to have day lights wired in from now or from 2012 on top is not now legal requirement to run with them on? It is in Europe for sure but do not know UK.

Lights on monster are crappy, my Yamaha headlight on monster is better but I still run it on long beam. SS one is by far best Ducati one I had yet in day I run it high beam anyhow.

[knuckledragger]

I'm a lights on fan......if it makes drivers who are busy texting or some female putting her slap on, help see you...then game on.

[Nickj]

I'm a lights on fan......if it makes drivers who are busy texting or some female putting her slap on, help see you...then game on.

If you want this kind of driver to see you the best way is to step out infront of them. When your head hits the screen they might, not always mind, might notice you were there :freak:

If you're relying on lights to do the job then you really need some blue flashing ones

[rac3r]

I think it's good....lets me know who is about to pull out in front of me :chuckle:

I think running lights for cars is the answer though, not bloody blinding headlights!

[He11cat]

I have always ridden with lights on ... but when I passed my test that was the done thing and cars did not really use lights unless low light or foggy.

Now more and more cars seem to have lights on in daytime .
The worst sorry being some of the German makes with ruddy laser beam lights that blind you.

I feel a bit safer with my light on.

[the_adam]

Didn't realise it was possible to turn them off on the older monsters, I don't have any choice with mine :) Quite like the idea of different coloured lights for bikes (assuming they worked as well at night!), green is already taken for the doctors though and with the purple you'd have to make sure it wasn't too near to red or blue, probably ending up with some horrible neon pink colour :eyepopping:

Think I'd prefer the cars to have them on permanently simply because it would stop people forgetting to turn them on at night, I very nearly ran into one on monday (To be fair they did have the sidelights on and one of them was even working, but with the amount of light it was putting out they'd have done better taping a candle to the roof!)

[bex]

I don't think it matters much. As Nick says, if they ain't looking, they won't see you.

I think the best bet is to make sure your positioned on the road where you can see best, and be seen best and cross your fingers and toes.

If having lights on helps reduce the risk I'm all for having them on.

Unfortunately the averager driver doesn't ride a bike too so isn't wired to expect a bike riding next to them should they suddenly decide to make a right turn etc. We all ride on parts of the road and around traffic where the average driver won't expect to find us, I guess its as much our responsibilty to make sure they do as it is theirs.

[slipperyweeguy]

If you're relying on lights to do the job then you really need some blue flashing ones

Even that doesn't work - on a fully marked up traffic car with sirens on! Nothing comes with a guarantee, so all you can do is assume everyone is trying to kill you.
I usually use the headlamp (dipped) if it's an option, but my current bikes are 'always on'.
I changed my car last February, and after many years of driving a colourful 4x4 and having very few folk pull out in front of me at junctions/roundabouts, my dull coloured saloon seemed to be invisible and I had a few frights so I run with the sidelights on most of the time. I'd be happy with led day-running lights on car or bike.

[knuckledragger]

Just over a year ago for 3 years, I commuted 110 miles per day on my bike. 50% A & B roads and the rest on the A1 in all weathers. I got to see all sorts of activities that drivers get up to. From reading newspapers to sexual relief to name but a few. The one thing I found most helpful was having my headlight on to get you noticed. I usually swap my bulb out for an off road unit (illegal) but very effective. You also get a real knack at second guessing most drivers intentions.

What's that old saying.....Be safe be seen.

[Darkness]

I got the impression a couple of years back when knocked off that if I hadn't had my dipped headlight on, it would have been considered contributory negligence by me.

That seems an odd moral position that it's your fault that someone didn't look for/see you and you must do all that is "normal" to make it easier for them.

How long till "normal" means you must wear saturn yellow overalls, gloves, boots, helmet, bike etc with reflective stripes as well as lights otherwise you aren't trying hard enough to be seen?

Yellow tabards are already "en vogue" in France and Eire.

Ok: I'll put my soapbox away now before someone trips over it and blames me!

:dizzy::eek:

[mrbryanmarshall]

Last time I was in South Africa (May this year) all the bikes (everyone has a BMW GS....EVERYONE!) now have a RED gel filter or yellow Gel filter over the light. Looks totally odd but have to admit that you notice it instantly. Guess there is so much more touring over there and the road accidents are ridiculously high.

This helps them stand out from the sea of normal light lights...totally a fan of this from a notice me perspective, think it looks a bit odd tho. But yeah, total fan of lights on in the day - every little bit helps!

[the_adam]

I like that idea (and think red headlights would look quite good too!), probably too many traffic laws for it to work here though. As far as I know the only time you're allowed to have a red light visible from the front is for fire service control vehicles (flashing with a white one)

Yellow tabards are already "en vogue" in France and Eire.


Must admit, after noticing how difficult it was to see a lot of bikes while commuting I've been converted to the yellow tabbard brigade. Only when it's dark though. Don't like it, but then I really don't like the clear visor either and have to put up with that for the next few months. And at least it's another layer to keep the weather out :thumbsup:

[LVC]

No choice in France - dipped headlights on at all times - legal requirement and all New cars have to be fitted with daytime running lights (LEDs) I think from next year or 2013.

My Z has dipped beam and white LEDs on the acerbis dual sport hand protection - I get regular comments as to how much more visible it is than the other bikes. I've often thought about adding LED running lights to the Monster but not sure where they'd go to look nice - it already has UV LED's to light the engine and underside up for the "Runs" - don't ask ;)

[gary tompkins]

I would say that using hi-vis/reflective clothing has as much if not more affect than headlights

Bikers winge about drivers not seeing them but many also refuse to wear any kind of hi-vis, or use day time headlights. I see it as a shared responsibility - sadly drivers travel around in an increasingly comatose state, or are easily distracted by satnavs, mobiles etc.. putting other road users at risk. The bottom line is that in a car v bike collision the biker usually comes off far worse. As a result drivers perceive a motorcycle as less of a threat and don't focus on them. Another contributing factor in this is a motorcycles smaller front profile, or it's rider choosing to wear dark clothing. I think the increased accident statitstics in recent years is down to the UK's massive increase in traffic congestion. It's a simple fact that more vehicles on the same piece of road = more accidents. Especially if driving standards are dropping at the same time due to lack of monitoring and enforcement.

I normally run daytime lights on if I remember to switch them on on the monster

The Buell has them on permanently - American spec wiring

[Jan (Belgium)]

No choice for us in Belgium either,

But you would be amazed how easy filtering in between lanes becomes when you have a bike equiped with a HID light wich is slightly tilted upwards :mand:

[nambduke]

I've read somewhere in a safety report that headlights are only effective when viewed head on. Once you move to one side or the other, the brightness and intensity isn't as noticable so having a headlight on isn't the best way to be seen. The type of light I would suggest is something like a fog light which has a wider dispersing beam instead of a normal dipped headlight which is more centred or to the left in the UK. Maybe the led type are better?

Having your headlight on doesn't stop anyone pulling out on you as I've experienced on a number of ocassions. I'm sure others have experienced the same situation! I simply assume that everyone is a tw4t and I expect them all to pull out so try and mitigate the risk through speed, positioning and using the horn.....the noise from open cans helps. It doesn't stop someone pulling out on you be it certainly lowers the risk.

Just thinking on other related issues on been seen....A Pillar design in new cars restricts the drivers view as do windscreen mounted sat navs! Ooooh I can feel a rant coming on!!!!

Regards
Mark

[mrbryanmarshall]

agree, i've adopted the strategy of being as loud as possible. speaking of which, ducati performance racing colelctor should be here this week!

[Nickj]

Just thinking on other related issues on been seen....A Pillar design in new cars restricts the drivers view as do windscreen mounted sat navs!

UK use and construction regs clearly state that there should only be the one A pillar at the front of the door, a B at the back of the front door and a C at the back , those cars vans with the extra verical one behind the A pillar where they've extended the cab space without moving the door forwards are technically illegal under the UK Use and Construction rules... However they ain't according to the euro rules so they are allowed.

If they've got the extra pillar might as well really degrade the view by slapping the sat nav right infront of their noses

[jerry]

They are compulsary in Thailand and have absolutely no effect what-so-ever as every vehicle is lit up .
a proven waste of time and money .

[utopia]

Exactly.
And a waste of an opportunity to increase road safety for bikers too, which is even worse.
Maybe some sort of petition to the dept of transport is in order, before the opportunity is lost in this country too....though it would be easy to be defeatist about it and say that nobody will take the trouble to follow it up, or that the system is too entrenched and nothing can easily be changed.
Then again, if you don't try, defeat is guaranteed.
He who dares, Rodney........

Personally, I think I'd like to see daytime lights for other vehicles banned (or at least limited to smaller sidelights), though the idea of a different colour running light for bikes may be a better option, but like Adam says, its about finding a colour that's not already spoken for and doesn't lead to confusion.

I'm seriously thinking of starting some sort of online petition, but my IT skills aren't really up to the task.

'tis true that they wont see you if they aren't looking, and I bear the scars of a daytime, lights on, point blank smidsy myself, but that is perhaps a seperate issue. It still must be better in general to be more visible.
I agree that wearing bright kit is certainly worthwhile, but I don't really want to look like a power ranger when I arrive at my destination, so I limit my brightness to just the helmet and some reflective piping on my black jacket. Bright colours are mostly lost at night anyway.
I would run daytime lights the whole time were it not for the likelyhood that it would lead to the situation that jerry describes in Thailand, which is probably even worse than nobody using daytime lights at all, because at least then there would be no added confusion from the mass of lights.

[BluprintZ]

Over the last five years, i've lost two mates to road accidents, when they were both lit up like Blackpool illuminations....well not quite but you get my drift i'm sure.

Headlights on, colourful riding gear and still they weren't seen!
So, as far as i'm concerned, it's down to defensive riding.
If i see a vehicle at a junction, i slow down and watch it like a hawk, although one of the above mentioned mates was hit when she was just about level with the car that was at the junction, she had more or less got past when the car T boned her and pushed her and the bike into the opposite side of the road, she lost her leg but that didn't directly kill her, the blood clot a week or so later did though!

G ; )

[PETE.AKO]

Hi i have just fitted these so that i can see at night they seem to get the cars out the way as well ?

[Thirdway]

Don't have a strong opinion. I don't rely on daytime lights. Not convinced they offer much to reduce the accident rate. Prefer to concentrate on the riding. I'm very conscious at junctions and have an action plan in mind should the worst happen.

Often I go to the other side of the road if it's clear and have been known to swoop into a junction and around the back of a dozy drivers that begin to pull out, despite my caution and visibility. But it's rare I need to take action. Both my bike crashes (2 in 30years of riding) were caused by poor road conditions/oil diesel etc. I have never had a collision with another vehicle since I was 13.

Only concern with them is the effect on the battery and the possibility of early burn out, particularly if you only have a single headlight. It's not always practical to carry a bulb and on most bikes these days a road side swap is out of the question.

[littlejimmy12]

Yellow tabards are already "en vogue" in France and Eire.

You know what, I've been thinking about one of these recently and today I am going to get one. I would curse myself if I was in A&E (again!) as a result of not been seen when one of these could have helped.

[J_Dub]

Personally, I think I'd like to see daytime lights for other vehicles banned (or at least limited to smaller sidelights), though the idea of a different colour running light for bikes may be a better option, but like Adam says, its about finding a colour that's not already spoken for and doesn't lead to confusion.

I'm seriously thinking of starting some sort of online petition, but my IT skills aren't really up to the task.


Too late, the introduction / phasing in of daytime running lights has already been decided by the European Commission (surprise surprise).

"But in spite of vocal opposition, just under a year ago, on 7 February 2011, the Commission made it compulsory for all new cars to be equipped with daytime running lights that switch on automatically when the engine is started. The same will be the case for new trucks from August 2012."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16215106

I can't help thinking that this is all corporate greed, I seem to recollect something similar about car windscreens being replaced because of (minor) scratches , the idea got kicked out but you can guess which manufacturers were pushing the notion forward.

[Altaian]

A bike rode past me last night whilst I was walking, and it looked the rider was wearing a helmet out of 'Tron'. It had so much neon going on, that'd it'd probably cause more accidents due to people being curious.

My lights are on when riding due to newness of bike - it's not a choice. However I'd probably opt for them if I had a choice, as I'd rather stay shiny side up. Anything that makes you be more visible during the day surely must be a no-brainer (assuming you're on the right side of the law). I like the light cluster design on the 'Fighter & as a bonus for a Ducati, it's actually got a pretty good spread of light for night use.

[crust]

No daytime lights here or Hi Viz either.

I've yet to see any evidence that either works or has any beneficial effect.