Pattern Belts!!!!

[Madamejones]

Brought my first big bike in April - M600 - P plate with only 15,000 miles. Seemed to come from a women who cared for her bike and it had been regularly serviced etc......anyhow, had the bike for 3 months, been ok, on the way back from Ace Cafe a month ago it cut out. My other half and fellow riders diagnosed it was something to do with the pick up coil, so I managed to ride it back home to Gloucester (starting and stopping everynow & again)

Took the bike to a local Ducati trained mechanic, he has taken 4 weeks to look at it :shocked: then rang me last night to say that after he had done the coils, he started it up and discovered that one of belts had snapped! He said they looked old, so I told him that the previous owners had not long replaced them.....this is when he told me that they were not original Ducati belts!!! He is now going to strip it down to see how much damage it has caused and how many valves have been damaged etc etc.....

Just sooooo peeed off as been without a bike for a month and though it was a simple problem. Why do people scrimp on something so important :Furious:

[Albie]

Its been a discussion on many forums as to why Ducati have the upper hand with belts. At the end of the day they put there neck on the line. However Im sure the belt makers make for all brands of cars and bikes. Question is were the belts actually done ? reciepts etc. People say this and that but do you trust them ? Maybe it was adjusted wrong or something else failed causing the belt to break.

Only ever had a cambelt break once on my Capri 1600S . Never on a bike.

I have been told Renault Clio belts are the same for 2 valvers but will not confirm. Now I do know some have tried and not heard any detremental things. Who knows.

I get mine done at garage for now as it was under warranty.

Sorry to her your woes and hope your riding again soon and hopefully not too expensive. Good job it wasn't a 4 valver.

[slob]

[QUOTE=Albie]... I have been told Renault Clio belts are the same for 2 valvers ...[QUOTE]

but the Clio service interval for cambelt is 50K miles/5 years

[Scott1]

Hi, I hope you get this sorted without too much expense, just out of interest, did you manage to ride it to the dealers or start it beforehand? I'm not sure if its possible to do either with a snapped cam belt?

[sburrows87]

It may not have happened because they were pattern, but possibly because they were tensioned incorrectly

[Pomp1]

You wouldn't have been able to ride the bike at all with a snapped belt. When a Monster runs on one cylinder is bad enough, basically unrideable, I couldn't imagine you'd manage Ace to Gloucester would be possible. I don't want to make allegation against your Ducati mechanic but the story doesn't tally up I'm afraid..

[Pedro]

I have been told Renault Clio belts are the same for 2 valvers but will not confirm. Now I do know some have tried and not heard any detremental things. Who knows.


The Renault belts may well be the same length and tooth pitch but car cam belt rollers are a lot larger than those used on a Duke so are not bending as much, hence the much longer service life - they are most likely different in their construction/materials for this reason too.

You wouldn't have been able to ride the bike at all with a snapped belt. When a Monster runs on one cylinder is bad enough, basically unrideable, I couldn't imagine you'd manage Ace to Gloucester would be possible. I don't want to make allegation against your Ducati mechanic but the story doesn't tally up I'm afraid..

What Pomp says, single cylinder twins are evil and the chances of a belt breaking and not damaging the motor are slim...

[JMo]

You wouldn't have been able to ride the bike at all with a snapped belt. When a Monster runs on one cylinder is bad enough, basically unrideable, I couldn't imagine you'd manage Ace to Gloucester would be possible. I don't want to make allegation against your Ducati mechanic but the story doesn't tally up I'm afraid..

I agree - I think what the mechanic meant to say was "I started the engine up, AND one of the belts snapped..." but he probably got confused... ahem.

Jx

[He11cat]

hmmm as above...
I have ridden a monster on one cylinder and no its not fun!! grrrrrrr.....
and no belt /belts no bike going anywhere!!

The first thing both of mine have been sent to have done is belts because peoples ideas of when belts should be changed are so different and some people are not truthful.
New belts are a small price to pay for a lot of damage.

My 400 belts have been left for 4 years by previous owner and stood about so they where first on my list to change.

My 600 again bit of a past I think so again had them changed to be on safe side.

There is a chap up here who spoke to at Bike shop had a cracking M600 he only uses it a few times a year in summer and has not changed it belts for shock horror 10 years!!!!!!!!!

Its not your fault , but yes as the others have said think you should bring up that the bike would not have with a snapped belt.
Did you ring (not being sexist ) but some garages not ones I use I will add!!! will try it on if your female !
I hate it when that happens .. ok im no expert at all but do have a little bit of a clue.
Hope its not bad news ..... but I would be questioning it.

Its always worth asking if anyone on here knows of a good mechanic near you , go by recommendation !

[popelli]

Took the bike to a local Ducati trained mechanic, he has taken 4 weeks to look at it :shocked: then rang me last night to say that after he had done the coils, he started it up and discovered that one of belts had snapped!


4 weeks to look at it ????? must be the busiest bike shop in the uk

it started up and ran with a broken belt ?????

he is trying it on - don't know who or where this cowboy bike shop is but its time you found somebody you can actually trust to work on your bike

[Madamejones]

oh my......you have all confirmed what my husband and friend said to me....... :shocked:

Bike lost power in the fast lane of motorway, pulled over and that's when my knowlegeable friends had a tinker about and said it was the coils. Rode it the rest of way to Ace and then home again. It was ok for about 15 miles, then would splutter and i would have to pull over for about 5 minutes and then repeat until reached home. Looked on a few forums and a guy near me was recommended and his name also came up at our local weekly bike meets - 17yrs Ducati trained mechanic. I phoned him told him the situation, he said bring it up and it would be a quick look at the bike, order and fit the coils and job done.....

I ring him, leave a message, few days later ring again where he tells me he is so busy and will try and get it back to me by the weekend.... and now we are 4 weeks into the saga.

My OH keeps telling me that he is going up there to get bike back and that he could have attempted the repair himself - it was me that insisted on taking it elsewhere.......had a phone call 8pm the other night and the mechanic said that he had started it up, realised it was only running on one cylinder, checked and one belt has snapped and the other was loose. I relayed this back to my OH and our friend (fellow biker that was with us on the Ace Cafe run) and they both said BULL****!!!!! as they also couldn't get their heads around it. Both have jap bikes but know about bikes in general.

Here am I not knowing for certain if a bike can be ridden when a belt has snapped or not but as many of you have said..... most defintely not :eyepopping:.....I am at a loss what to do now. I have told him to go ahead, strip it down and ring me with the damage before going ahead with any of the work.

We took the bike to his workshop in the back of my other half's van and he was with me, so he knows I'm not a lone female. So may local people have recommended him and say he is a top guy but now I am seriously beginning to doubt the mechanic's integrity :(

Really appreciate all your comments as it gives me some knowledge....

[gary tompkins]

One thing is certain

If the bike was ridden any distance with a snapped belt the top end will be a mess. It would be far cheaper to buy a secondhand engine and swap it than repair yours. Engine parts are very expensive/difficult to get hold of and once you add on labour charges...

Good luck with getting it fixed

[pegboy]

MMMm this is a tricky one really, surely if the belt had snapped you would of heard strange noises, like the piston hitting valve???

Could it be by coincident that the belt was rubbing/freying all along, not the fault of your poor running to and from Ace's, but of the coils and when the mechanic started the bike the belts finally let go???

Don't know who the mechanic so not sticking up for anyone here. I would definately speak face to face to the mechanic to find out exactly what happen and look at the belts yourself or/and with the OH if needed, to see for yourself then you might be able to evaluate the situation better.

[He11cat]

Ring him and do not even let him strip your engine down halt all work.
You need to go down there with hubby and ask for an explanation of what has happened.
Then go with your gut feeling.

A good Ducati mechanic would have assesed the belts and stuff prior to firing up I am sure of it just to rule things out.

As Gt says if the belt snapped the engine rebuild would be horrendous price.
Grab a decent second hand engine and fit new belts so you know when they where done and that way you know where you stand in future.

Don't bother with that engine ... plenty of cheap ones about still.
I would halt all work until you have been down there and had a chat if you feel like your being fobbed off or lied to trust me you probabaly are.

I have to say I am so glad we have a great mechanic up here ... I trust mine 100%...

There must be someone on here who could recommend this lady someone / somewhere surely?
Go down keep calm ... but ring and halt all work until you have been in seen the bike and spoken to the bloke and raised your concerns issues.

[Madamejones]

MMMm this is a tricky one really, surely if the belt had snapped you would of heard strange noises, like the piston hitting valve???

Could it be by coincident that the belt was rubbing/freying all along, not the fault of your poor running to and from Ace's, but of the coils and when the mechanic started the bike the belts finally let go???

Don't know who the mechanic so not sticking up for anyone here. I would definately speak face to face to the mechanic to find out exactly what happen and look at the belts yourself or/and with the OH if needed, to see for yourself then you might be able to evaluate the situation better.

I was thinking about this over lunch and i think that is the case, coil went during the Ace Cafe run and then when the mechanic turned the bike over it was bad coincidence that the belt snapped. He said it was the front belt and the back was loose. I am hoping that this was the best scenario (if any) for the belt to snap in rather than me hurtling along the motorway. He has quoted max of £500 if more than one valve has been damaged and possibly piston damage too.

He has a Ducati only workshop and although i know i can't necessarily go on that and first impressions, he really does seem genuine and as previously mentioned i have seen recommendations somewhere on here and the Ducasti forum which sing his praises. It is unfortuante that he has taken so long to do the coils but nothing I can do about that now.

At least i know that the belts will be original and the correct tension and then I can monitor from now on.....I will let you guys know what the actual damage is and the cost when all done.

[Madamejones]

Ring him and do not even let him strip your engine down halt all work.
You need to go down there with hubby and ask for an explanation of what has happened.
Then go with your gut feeling.

A good Ducati mechanic would have assesed the belts and stuff prior to firing up I am sure of it just to rule things out.

As Gt says if the belt snapped the engine rebuild would be horrendous price.
Grab a decent second hand engine and fit new belts so you know when they where done and that way you know where you stand in future.

Don't bother with that engine ... plenty of cheap ones about still.
I would halt all work until you have been down there and had a chat if you feel like your being fobbed off or lied to trust me you probabaly are.

I have to say I am so glad we have a great mechanic up here ... I trust mine 100%...

There must be someone on here who could recommend this lady someone / somewhere surely?
Go down keep calm ... but ring and halt all work until you have been in seen the bike and spoken to the bloke and raised your concerns issues.


Just read this...you must have posted as I did.......my OH did speak to him on the phone and as I said his initial reaction was Bull**** but after he had spoken to him, he said it made sense what the mechanic was saying. I have stated that he needs to ring me to tell exactly what the damage is before proceeding as it crossed my mind about getting another engine and doing the belts....

[Rockhopper]

For what its worth all the Ducati motors will run with a broken belt, infact i know some who only realised something was wrong when he saw petrol dripping from the front pots exhaust header!!

[pegboy]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/engine-27891-miles-new-ducati-600ss-1999-5678-/260821412688?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item3cba2aeb50


one on ebay

[Madamejones]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/engine-27891-miles-new-ducati-600ss-1999-5678-/260821412688?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item3cba2aeb50


one on ebay

Thanks guys, very kind,

there are a few on Ebay.......i will await phone call with damage but of he said maximum of £500 and that included fitting the two new belts, probably going to be the same if not cheaper than another engine.....will see :)

[Pomp1]

For what its worth all the Ducati motors will run with a broken belt, infact i know some who only realised something was wrong when he saw petrol dripping from the front pots exhaust header!!

I'm sorry RH but I would realize that something is wrong well before petrol starts pouring out of the header..

[PDS]

Madamejones who is doing the work to your Ducati out of interest, pm me if you don't want to post on the forum, i would be interested to know

thanks

phil

[Funkatronic]

considering a 2yr 12K (belts and valve clearnces) service costs not far off that £500 sounds reasonable

[Madamejones]

Madamejones who is doing the work to your Ducati out of interest, pm me if you don't want to post on the forum, i would be interested to know

thanks

phil

Will do....

[He11cat]

Hope you get it sorted.
The only reason I say get things straight years ago I had some work done on an engine from a bike engineer we agreed the price after he looked at it and I went in on my lonesome and was only 21.

I also said if its going to cost more please tell me and ring me before you do anymore work as I only have a set budget.
(I had no credit cards and used to deal in cash only).

I got a call to come pick up my engine and got the bill and nearly fainted he had trebled the bill and never made the call to me as agreed .

It was terrible for me as I did not have the money the bill had trebled ...
I had to borrow beg and sell to settle up as I couldn't do a thing and had nobody to turn to just this mega bill..... oh and the rebuild was pants! Bloody two stroke !

second time was my car .. told the cat had gone as well after I had gone in for a new clutch.
It didn't sit well with me ... just had a gut feeling .
Paid for my clutch and got a second opinion ... nothing wrong with my Cat at all..... I would have parted with a few hundred for no reason :(
Sometimes you just get a vibe.

I now go by recommendation , the same garage fixes my car year after year as family run and always been dead straight with me to the point of showing me stuff always have time for you.

My bike the same now found someone I trust and I like and there I shall stay.
I hope it gets sorted

I jokingly had a M300 for a bit ... it was NO fun! and ditto to what Pomp said I think you would well and truely know about a belt snap....
I would have thought some major damage!!!...
Lets hope you get sorted.

Trouble with these beasts they do need a bit of love ... a bit more then your average Jap bike which will take a bit of abuse and leeway...
I think thats why people love them so, as you have to put that little bit more love into them..

Funny how human nature makes you love something that can be a total pain in the arse, give you major heartbreak and costs you more money then the average whatever !! I think that applies to my choices in life be it man or machine :(

[utopia]

I hadn't really thought much about it before, but after a 5min ponder I came to wonder......
Might you be more likely to get away with less (or no) valve/piston damage on an engine, where each cylinder has its own cam/s ?

Obviously, the damage is limited to the one cylinder with the broken belt.
But furthermore....given that the damage occurs when one or more valves remain open and are hit by the piston, on a multi cyl engine with a single cam there is every chance that the cam will come to rest holding at least one valve open. ie if you get lucky on one cylinder, and its valves are closed, that very fact makes it much more likely that valves on other cylinders will be open.
And still furthermore, the valve springs (in the other cylinders) in a conventional engine would hold that open valve firmly in position as the piston hit it.

On a monster however, a broken belt means just one cylinder has its valves potentially mistimed....if you're lucky and they're both closed, then there is no knock-on implication that valves in other cylinders must be open.
Furthermore, in a desmo there is no valve spring resistance, so if the piston does hit a valve, it may just tap the valve closed in a relatively gentle fashion. I'm not sure about this last bit though...It might depend on exactly where the cam comes to rest.

Does any or all of that make any sense ? ....I only pondered it briefly before posting.
I think maybe at least some of it might give some cause for optimism.
My escort engine bent three valves and cracked two rockers...!!
I would have thought it likely that your engine damage, if any, will be limited to a single valve/rocker system.

Discuss...??

[chris.p]

[QUOTE=Albie]... I have been told Renault Clio belts are the same for 2 valvers ...[QUOTE]

but the Clio service interval for cambelt is 50K miles/5 years


And the Clio only revs to about 4k max.


Chris.

[Madamejones]

I hadn't really thought much about it before, but after a 5min ponder I came to wonder......
Might you be more likely to get away with less (or no) valve/piston damage on an engine, where each cylinder has its own cam/s ?

Obviously, the damage is limited to the one cylinder with the broken belt.
But furthermore....given that the damage occurs when one or more valves remain open and are hit by the piston, on a multi cyl engine with a single cam there is every chance that the cam will come to rest holding at least one valve open. ie if you get lucky on one cylinder, and its valves are closed, that very fact makes it much more likely that valves on other cylinders will be open.
And still furthermore, the valve springs (in the other cylinders) in a conventional engine would hold that open valve firmly in position as the piston hit it.

On a monster however, a broken belt means just one cylinder has its valves potentially mistimed....if you're lucky and they're both closed, then there is no knock-on implication that valves in other cylinders must be open.
Furthermore, in a desmo there is no valve spring resistance, so if the piston does hit a valve, it may just tap the valve closed in a relatively gentle fashion. I'm not sure about this last bit though...It might depend on exactly where the cam comes to rest.

Does any or all of that make any sense ? ....I only pondered it briefly before posting.
I think maybe at least some of it might give some cause for optimism.
My escort engine bent three valves and cracked two rockers...!!
I would have thought it likely that your engine damage, if any, will be limited to a single valve/rocker system.

Discuss...??


This is why I love this forum as I don't know much about engines...i do try and learn though and this makes sense to me. That is what I am hoping for, limited damage!!!

[Madamejones]

Trouble with these beasts they do need a bit of love ... a bit more then your average Jap bike which will take a bit of abuse and leeway...
I think thats why people love them so, as you have to put that little bit more love into them..

Funny how human nature makes you love something that can be a total pain in the arse, give you major heartbreak and costs you more money then the average whatever !! I think that applies to my choices in life be it man or machine :(

Sooooo true.....just spent bucket loads of cash on my car and begrudged every penny. Although I'm a bit peed off about all this inconvienence, I just want my baby back on the road asap as not ridden for 5 weeks and it feels like months!! :banghead:

[He11cat]

Fingers crossed for limited damage and lots more riding time for you :)

[Madamejones]

just spoke to mechanic, he is going to strip head off Saturday and then ring me with damage!!

[Madamejones]

http://www.ducatisti.co.uk/forum/dealers-workshops/9354-moto-vation-900ss-service-gloucestershire.html

Here is a thread from Ducatisti and these thoughts are echoed from people that have Duke's who attend our weekly meets.......so I think I can trust what he tells me :)

[popelli]

on a multi cyl engine with a single cam there is every chance that the cam will come to rest holding at least one valve open. ie if you get lucky on one cylinder, and its valves are closed, that very fact makes it much more likely that valves on other cylinders will be open.
And still furthermore, the valve springs (in the other cylinders) in a conventional engine would hold that open valve firmly in position as the piston hit it.



had a valve kiss a piston on a honda cb450 once, made a hell of a mess of the engine unlikely you would not notice that happening on another motor

had a made drop a valve on a kawasaki 750 twin it made an even better mess of the engine