Stabilty/wobbling issue at high speed.

[Phatty]

Sorry, don't post that much, but got a problem I need some advice with please.

Basically the problem is, when accellerating hard out when i get to around 90mph the front end will start to wander and wobble a bit. if i don't pull my weight right forwards or ease off the throttle it'll keep doing it worse and worse until I have to give in and back off for fear of falling off, it's that bad.

I've had the monster S4 for 3 years. when I first got it I had an almighty tank slapper. I vowed never to ride it again until I fitted a steering damper and checked the bike over.

I changed to S4R bars (all genuine items, used bars, everything else brand new) and I fitted a used Arrow steering damper. I aslo set the suspension back to factory settings, the front end was wound up as hard as it'd go....

Anyway, I continued to ride the bike up until the end of last year with no problems. Except that when on the IOM last year i noticed a buckle in the front wheel! I tried to striaghten it out with a large rubber hammer but in the end had to use a hydraulic press to get it round again. Now, I'd had a new tyre fitted BEFORE I straighten it....so I know it must have been out of balance and that's what's probably killed the damper.

Not long into tis years riding I noticed the bike was beginning to shake it's head a bit again. then I noticed the steering damper had leaked and lost some of it's oil. It not makes a squelching noise and doesn't offer any damping.

I had the front wheel re-balanced as it was 20g out, and on the advice of the MOT man I've stiffened the back shock up a little and backed off the frints a cople of clicks. I was watching the bike on the brake rollers nad the front end did look to be wobbling badly, even the tester commented it felt horrible. Yet when normal riding I can't feel any vibration at all. It feels better with the new settings, but it's too uncomfortable for me to ride with it that stiff as I have a bad back.

Clearly I'd like a new front wheel, but the chances of finding a red marchesini wheel are going to be next to none. So I'm just after some advice and ideas as to what I should do?

[popelli]

you can get wheels straightened

and time to change your mot man before he kills you, stiffening up the back end and dropping the front end will effectively reduce your trail, the opposite of what you want, ie a longer trail will increase high speed stability, decreasing it will make you bike worse

[steeevvvooo]

my advice:

1) get the wheel straightened and balanced professionally (no rubber mallet!)

2) get suspension set for your weight and riding style by a specialist (not your MOT man). Dependent on age/mileage, this might need new oil/springs/shock refresh etc

3) repair/replace the steering damper


I'm by no means an expert, but those are the things I would get done, and in that order. You could look for a new wheel, but they will be expensive. People on here have had badly dented wheels straightened for less that £70 I believe so not worth buying a new wheel if you can fix yours.

Good luck! :thumbsup:

[Rally]

My advice would be to buy the Matris steering damper I have for sale! Check my thread in the for sale section,

[Phatty]

The MOT man said the back end was WAY too soft and basically it was causing the front to lift under hard accelleration.

I initially thought it did feel a bit better, but no, it just makes the fron end wobble even faster.

The other thing is the wheel weights, are opposite eac other! there's some right where the buckle was, as I'd expect as I couldn't get it all out, but there are more weights directly opposite, but on the other side??!?! how can that be right??

who does wheel straightening?

Bikes a 51 plate, 17k on it.

[utopia]

The wheel needs to run true both side to side, and radially. Without accurate measuring equipment, and special jigs to do the straightening, you have no hope of getting it right.
But dont worry too much about the wheel. I hit a concrete gully and dinged my rim. A nice man in lincolnshire had all the kit and sorted it for £60 or so. Hagon do it too, and I think there's another guy up north.
I wonder what caused the damage though, and whether the forks, or even frame are ok. But they probably are, if the wheel damage was small.
It would maybe be worth checking the wheel alignment, as a first shot. If they're in line (and you've moved the chain adjusters equally, if you've moved them at all), then there's a good chance that all is well. If the forks move up and down smoothly when you pump them hard, then that's a reasonably good indication that they're fairly straight. If the bike fails either of these tests, there is still hope because the forks could have just twisted in the yokes.
Assuming all is ok, then you need the correct suspension set up. I'm not an expert, but I know some basics. Firstly, don't be confused into thinking that more spring preload gives harder suspension. It doesn't. Only a stiffer spring (or more compression damping) will do that. Spring preload merely affects the height at which the suspension sits under a given load, for example the weight of the rider when stationary, when the suspension should ideally be sitting at around 30% of its total travel. The heavier the rider, the more preload is needed to achieve this. I'm guessing from your forum name that you might need a fair bit. If you're much heavier than average then a stiffer spring, tailored to your weight might be worth fitting.
If spring preload front or back is incorrect, then not only will the suspension be compromised but it will also alter the pitch of the bike. Too much rear preload and/or too little front, will make the bike sit low at the front and make the steering more twitchy and liable to slap about as you describe. This is because trail is reduced, like Popelli says. Conversely, too little rear/too much front, makes the front sit high and the steering stable but heavy and slow, due to increased trail.
You also have the option of raising the front by moving the fork tubes down in the yokes. It would be worth checking that the forks are set at the recommended height just now, as someone may have previously lowered the front perhaps. That would also tend to give the symptoms you describe.
Sorry if any of this is stuff you already know.
I wouldn't worry too much about damping settings, either compression or rebound. As long as they're both somewhere in the middle, preferably at the recommended settings (maybe each up a bit if you're a bit heavier, or vice-versa) you won't be far enough out to cause the sort of issues you describe.
I could try to dig out the name of the chap that straightened my wheel, but I don't think I have it actually. He was near Spalding, if memory serves, and did it there and then, while I drove around for an hour or two. He even touched up the paint, and was a thoroughly nice bloke. But there are others. The name, Roy Therseby springs to mind as the northern chap, but that may be a red herring. Hagon have a well established name.
Either way, I think that getting the wheel straight and true should definitely be your first move.
While its out, check that the spindle is straight.....and hence another indication that the frame is or isn't straight.
I have no experience of steering dampers.
Hope some of that helps.

[popelli]

who does wheel straightening?



Try SPR in Ruddington Nottingham, they have a contact who straighted our monster front wheel about £50

[slipperyweeguy]

Sort wheel, buy new front tyre, check and adjust steering head bearings, throw away steering damper, and put some fresh oil in the forks while the wheel is away. Assuming rest of bike appropriately serviced and fit.

[pegboy]

I just used MOTOLINER but they are in Kent. Took an hour and again repaired it while a went and had breakfast and sprayed it up never now the difference all for £60. Although you will need to make an appointment for that waiting service.

[sburrows87]

Yes as stated check your headrace bearings also and that your forks are not too far up through the top yoke

[Nickj]

If the wheel is out then the tyre is probably going to be shot too.
Sort the wheel, get the steering bearings cleaned and set up, then sort out the suspension. Rather than fitting a damper which just supresses the instability problem and moves it to a higher speed fix the cause of the problem

[a7avenger]

This sounds ominously familiar, my bike also has a minor ding on the front wheel, trouble is though I later discovered that the headstock had been slightly pushed back at the bottom, 1 1/2 degrees that's all, not enough to see by eye, but never the less making the forks stand more upright.
From what Iv'e been told this has the effect of quickening the steering and also making the front end unstable at speed.
I sincerely hope that this is not the case with your frame, but look at the two small diagonal tubes that run into the headstock from the first bend on the frame tubes, if they are even slightly bent you have a problem, lay a straight edge on them to check.
Good luck.

[Mr Cake]

Check your front spindle is true, and your rear wheel is in straight.

C

[jerry]

I have an S4 and You MUST set the compression damping to low about 3-4 clicks in anything else is very bad rebound can be between 10-15 clicks in the S4 front forks are very poor design not standard Showa and have poor damping they get very twitchy at speed. i have never bothterd with a steering damper none of my other Ducatis have them but the S4 main problem is the forks themselves .

Do not fit Progressive spirings to an S4 either unles you want to die .

[Phatty]

thanks for the concern and in depth advise. I will try to get around to testing things one at a time.

Headstock bearings:- I have noticed a dry looking brown stiaing running down the back of the bottom yoke. I presumed it was coming out of the bearings and was grease, hopefully not rust! The bke does get used daily in all weathers, I hope the rain hasn't washed the grease out/ does any one know the bearing sizes/codes so i can order some from my bearing supplier?

Tyre: - was changed last year. I was better with the old one and the buckled wheel!

Alignment:- Chain and sprockets were also new last year. The tensioners are set equally, however I haven't done a front to back check to see if the wheels are perfectly in line. Another job I've not had time to do....(I know...I know....)

Me:- I'm not fat actually! 'm about 12.5 stone. I changed the bars because I have a bad back and bad wrists so I can't rest with any weight on the bars at all really. I tend to sit very upright on the bike. I find the bike doesn't like this and is more stable if I do lay on the tank. However, I can't ride like that, it's uncomfortable and even painful sometimes.

Suspension settings: other than the recent tweaks, they have been set at factroy settings, because I don't know enough about them to be messing with the settings. I have a good understanding of what's going on inside the damepr, but my background is cars, not bikes, so I don't know what adjustments affect what, only really that the preload is set to rider weight.

Frame:neve rnoticed any cracks in the paint or kinsk or anything. I really have no idea what or when caused the wheel damage. I'd taken the bike over to the IOM in my van, and notcied it literally the next morning, 2 years into ownership. I have pics somewhere, will post them up when I find them.

Been riding for a week with the new settings, it's too stiff for me, hurts my back and I can see the headlight bouncing around reflected on the back of cars.

Will take the bike off the road tomorrow night and pull the front wheel out. Get some new bearings ordered for the headstock and the wheel and start checking the spindle and frame and stuff whilst the wheel is away for straightening. Anyone in between Nottingham and Northampton who could do it on Thursday as I'll be in that area and in the van??

[Phatty]

Just thinking again from a timeline point of view. even with the buckled wheel and an old tyre it rode fine.

I fitted the chain and sprockets at the end of last seaon and I don't think I rode the bike again until this spring (couldn't ride for months due to a bad back and the winter). So I am actually hoping it's a wheel alignment issuse and the back isn't in line with the front. I've read before that the markings on the adjusters can be a mile out and you have to align it to the front to get it right.

I've only been riding 5 years, and it's only my 2nd bike so I'm still learning. It's only now I'm getting a better rider that I'm actually beginning to notice things that I might have otherwise overtlooked or accepted as normal.

[Starter Sprag]

Align, using centre of swing-arm-pivot to centre of wheel-spindle, both sides must be equal

Ignore completely, the adjuster plate markings, and make certain chain tension is correct

[craigie]

Another thing to consider is how you ride at those speeds. You say if you pull yourself forwards it stops, if you are gripping the bars too tight then you will weave being bolt upright with the higher bars, try using your core muscles (thighs, lower abdomen and back) to pull yourself forward and relax grip and arms as much as you can.

[nambduke]

Hi

Check all the fundamentals first. Steering damper isn't the cause or cure for a weave or wobble.

A pal of mine had a wobble issue on his bike. He'd been on an airfield track day and hit a landing light at speed on the made up circuit. On inspection, it looked like the wheel was buckled but when checked with a dial gauge, it was the tyre that was goosed internally - a minor bulge was identified on the outer surface.

For your problems, I'd look at the obvious places:
- Wheels true/not buckled or flattened
- Wheels out of balance
- Head bearings/swingarm bearings
- Fork oil leaks
- Do the forks have any oil in them?
- Basic spanner checks - e.g. fork yokes, swingarm, engine
- Tyre condition - stepped or worn?
- Tyre pressures
- Rear shock operating - not seized or loss of damping
- Right size tyres - I've ridden bikes with oversized rear tyres which have induced a weave at speed
- Previous accident damage - frame
- Suspension adjustment can induce strange bike handling but rarely to an extreme of wobble or serious weave
- A steering damper will stop a shake (wheelie or a shake over a bump or cats eye for example) but it won't cure a weave because the underlying problem will still be there which needs identifying
- Aftermarket screen - may induce strange aerodynamics on the front end
- Panniers or top box fitted? I had to ask, sorry for this stupid suggestion!

I'm sure you will identify the problem eventually...

Regards and good luck
Mark

[Phatty]

- Wheels true/not buckled or flattened----------------a known issue already. however, it rode fine with the buckle, even 2 up.
- Wheels out of balance-------------it's been balanced twice, but has weights opposite...
- Head bearings/swingarm bearings------------not checked
- Fork oil leaks-----------not aware of any. Hmm, now you come to mention it, I have seen a very light trace of oil on the fork pistons before, but haven't for a while....interesting...
- Do the forks have any oil in them?-------------no idea!?
- Basic spanner checks - e.g. fork yokes, swingarm, engine-----------will do a full check
- Tyre condition - stepped or worn?-------------both new last year, Michelin Pilot Road 2's,
- Tyre pressures----not a clue!
- Rear shock operating - seized or loss of damping -------it was very soft.
- Right size tyres - I've ridden bikes with oversized rear tyres which have induced a weave at speed---------------stock sizes.
- Previous accident damage - frame---------hope not!!
- Suspension adjustment can induce strange bike handling but rarely to an extreme of wobble or serious weave
- A steering damper will stop a shake (wheelie or a shake over a bump or cats eye for example) but it won't cure a weave because the underlying problem will still be there which needs identifying-----------------the damper eliminated the initial head shake I used to get, this is a weave, totally different. It starts at a slow rate and quickly increases and worsens.
- Aftermarket screen - may induce strange aerodynamics on the front end-----------bone stock
- Panniers or top box fitted? I had to ask, sorry for this stupid suggestion!-------nope, stock, just Termi's

[Phatty]

Another thing to consider is how you ride at those speeds. You say if you pull yourself forwards it stops, if you are gripping the bars too tight then you will weave being bolt upright with the higher bars, try using your core muscles (thighs, lower abdomen and back) to pull yourself forward and relax grip and arms as much as you can.

See above, I can't strain my back, it's knackered, got a disc buldge. I've tried altering my grip, to see if it's me or the bike. i.e. if gripping makes it worse, it's me, if it makes i better, it's the bike. doesn't seem to make much difference. It's more the weight shift from either my body position or the throttle position that helps it out (i.e. when the weight is on the front the bike is more stable).

[Phatty]

Oh, and another thing. I picked up 10 litres of oil the other week and had it in my back pack. the bike rode a lot better with the extra weight. What does that tell you?

[utopia]

My preferred method to check wheel alignment is.......
Long length of thin cord (I use 20lb breaking strain fishing line) stretched between two heavy objects on the ground so the cord runs along next to both wheels and arranged so as to contact the tyres as high up as possible.
Move cord around until it is JUST contacting the outer edge of the rear tyre at front and back.
At this point, you should have a gap between the cord and the edges of the front tyre. Move the steering if neccessary until these two gaps are the same, and then measure the gap.
It should be equal to half of the difference between the width of the front tyre and the width of the rear.
If not, adjust one or other chain tensioner as required, and retest.
You could of course use a straight edge instead, but there is no guarantee that it is actually straight, whereas the cord has to be, as long as it is only just touching the tyre.
You could double check that you get the same result on the other side of the tyre if you like, though its probably not really neccessary.
Staining from steering bearings sounds a little suspect, and fork oil sounds worth checking too.

Avenger...I was remembering your frame issues, but resisted mentioning for fear of causing unneccessary panic. Did you get it sorted?

[craigie]

It's more the weight shift from either my body position or the throttle position that helps it out (i.e. when the weight is on the front the bike is more stable).

Oh, and another thing. I picked up 10 litres of oil the other week and had it in my back pack. the bike rode a lot better with the extra weight. What does that tell you?

Together, it's a bit confusing. More weight on the front helps and more weight on the back helps. I think we need a mechanical Sherlock for this one.

What I found when I picked my bike up was that it had higher than normal bars and was low and soft at the back, felt like I had made a mistake and bought a chopper. I had a few wee slappers going over bumps and such like. I then stiffened up the back, jacked it up and it felt a bit better. I also put on some clip-ons below the top yoke so I have much more weight over the front and the forks pulled up a bit so what I should have now is an unstable flighty bike but I have found it to be much more stable than it was when I got it and I ride much more enthusiastically than when I first had it and have had no slappers.......

[a7avenger]

Avenger...I was remembering your frame issues, but resisted mentioning for fear of causing unneccessary panic. Did you get it sorted?
Not yet, I have a good lead though, a guy in Farnborough who has come highly recommended can do it for a resonable 150 quid, unlike another company in Essex who apart from being very unhelpful over the phone quoted me £500, which for a few hours work aint bad work if you can get it. :thumbsdown:
I need to get my bike up to rolling chassis first though so it's going to be another couple of weeks or so.

[wobly999]

Hey i have the same problem with my 2003 S4. When i ride the bike normaly there seems to be no issues with the handling, However when riding the monster with some spirited progresion 70+ out of a bend on the throtle all hell breaks loose! Yes your right it does seem as though the beast is trying to kill you but i have to say i owned a S4R back in 2007 and suprise it was exactly the same?
Have checked everything one could possibly do and it has made no diference what so ever, so i have come to the conclusion its just another reason why i ride a ducati, soul, idividualism, charater, unpredictability and passion.

Do not fear the Monster, tame the beast! :snoopy:

[Phatty]

Just noticed a slight juddering and noise on braking too..... Not happy riding it like this!

The more I think and look at the bike the more I resile yes the fork seals have been leaking a bit since I bought it (and probably long before that) but I haven't seen the tell tale black line on them for months.....I'm expecting them to have no oil in them...

Going to change the fork seals and replace the oil too. Any recommendations on brands and weight?

Also going to change the headstock bearings and fron wheel bearings. does anyone know the sizes so I can order them direct from a supplier rather than paying a fortune on ebay and not knowing the manufacturer?

[slob]

fork oil: SAE 7.5 492ml
front wheel bearings: 50 x 15 x 6 (I Koyo 60052RSC3...)

[gary tompkins]

Just noticed a slight juddering and noise on braking too..... Not happy riding it like this!

The more I think and look at the bike the more I resile yes the fork seals have been leaking a bit since I bought it (and probably long before that) but I haven't seen the tell tale black line on them for months.....I'm expecting them to have no oil in them...

Going to change the fork seals and replace the oil too. Any recommendations on brads and weight?

Also going to change the headstock bearings and fron wheel bearings. does anyone know the sizes so I can order them direct from a supplier rather than paying a fortune on ebay and not knowing the manufacturer?

Wear to all these areas may indicate the bikes had a hammering. Pulling wheelies and stoppies for example. Do you know the bikes history.. was wondering if it's an ex UKMOC members bike? May be worth inspecting the frame around the headstock for damage.

[Phatty]

fork oil: SAE 7.5 492ml
front wheel bearings: 50 x 15 x 6 (I Koyo 60052RSC3...)

excellent, thanks

[Phatty]

Wear to all these areas may indicate the bikes had a hammering. Pulling wheelies and stoppies for example. Do you know the bikes history.. was wondering if it's an ex UKMOC members bike? May be worth inspecting the frame around the headstock for damage.

It was an Ex demo bike for Chris Clarke Motorcycles. Was owned for a bit by someone who worked there, then his friend. I've had the bike for 3 years. I personally have never done a wheeile or a stoppie, but I do ride it quite aggressively.

Going to take the bike off the road for a thorough investigation and overhaul.

[gary tompkins]

Maybe just a lot of general wear and tear then

[nambduke]

Come on Phatty....the suspense is killing me.....is it as suspected...

- Do the forks have any oil in them?

Regards,
Mark

[Phatty]

Don't know yet! haven't had time to take them off, it's not the weekend yet. Should have new seals today and I'll get some oil in the morning.

[Phatty]

Nowhere sells 7.5 weight oil?!?

[gary tompkins]

You can blend different weight oils to get the viscocity you need

Mixing equal quantities of SAE 10 and SAE 5 will create SAE 7.5

Best to use the same make though

[Phatty]

Had to order some Putoline fluid.

also bought another set of wheels too. should hopefully have enough bits to fix it soon!

I will try and not change everything at once, so we can see what the fault is.

[slob]

Hagon sell SAE7.5

[Phatty]

The buckle before I straightened it.

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb114/phatvr6/6065b1e1.jpg

[utopia]

Doesn't look too bad to me. Its about the same as mine was, though its a different type of wheel so may have behaved differently. Is it just one side ? Mine was both !! Still straightened out fine though, and I'm not aware of any further damage to forks, frame etc.
Trouble is, its probably the damage you can't see thats more important, ie distortion over a wider area causing the wheel to run out of true on a larger scale, rather than just locally, and that would perhaps be more likely to cause your sort of issues (not that I draw on much experience in saying that, but that would be my guess). Proper straightening in jigs will correct this. I'd defenitely have it done, even if you find the cause of your problem elsewhere. Well worth £50 imo.

[Phatty]

UPDATE!!

Bike is in bits.

Front wheel. Still has the ding in it, but spins smoothly and doesn't settle in the same place every time. It's goin to get straightened out properly.

Steering/Headstock bearings:- completely shot!! All the grease had come out, they were bone dry and rusty. Outer races really badly corroded and pitted. They're out and in the bin, new KOYO tapered ones going in.

Fork oil:- 450ml in each, like a dark brown colour with a bluey tinge to it.
I don't know how to get the seals out and the new ones in?

But, the main discovery, is that I am a numpty!! My lack of experience with bikes has meant I know sod all about them. I'm a competent mechanic, but it's all with cars. Id completely and utterly misread the manual with regards to preload settings. I wa measuring how far the centre bit sticks up above re preload nut...NOT how far the preload nut is wound out!!! I backed all the adjusters off before taking off the to cap off the stanchion, and was gobsmacked when I started to see markers every 2mm on the OUTSIDE of the preload adjusters. basically, they were set most of the way in, and have been since I bought the bike 3 years ago!!!

So, thus explains so much. Why I cannot ride in damp conditions, why the bearings are shot, probably why the wheel is damaged, and also why it won't stay in a straight line.

I cannot believe it. It's goingto be like riding a different bike when I get back on it. All these years of riding with basically rock hard front suspension.

I'm still blaming the tool I bought the bike off for winding the adjusters right in the first place. I'd never even seen those markings before, how was I to know I was measuring the wrong thing!! Bugger...

[Phatty]

Frame. Looks perfect. I can't see any damage, cracks in the paint, kinks in the tubes or anything.

[utopia]

The shot headraces may well be the cause of your instability (in addition to the damaged wheel), but I disagree about the fork spring preload.
Adjusting preload has no effect on spring stiffness, it merely affects the position at which the forks come to rest under a static load. Spring stiffness is dictated by the physical characteristics of the spring itself, and is therefore non adjustable. Therefore, with the preload adjusters wound to max, the forks will not have been any harder, they will merely have come to rest in a higher position, ie the front of the bike will have been raised. The effect of this would be to make the steering more stable in a straight line, rather than less, and the bike more reluctant to turn.
The other effect of high preload would be to make the suspension operate only in the higher region of its range of travel. This could perhaps lead to the forks "topping out", ie failing to extend sufficiently to cope with dips in the road surface or other occaisions when the front end goes light. Maybe this could be a contributory factor in your instability issues...?
In my (admittedly fairly limited) experience, Ducati forks are a little on the stiff side anyway (an example of the Italian "character"). This is probably why the front end may feel a little hard.
I'd do the headraces, straighten the wheel and then check that all aspects of suspension adjustment are at least close to factory settings and that the wheels are in line.
Can't comment on the oil.

[Phatty]

Spent the afternoon out riding. It's totally transformed. The bike just feels so much more planted than before. Don't know whether that's from the fork oil change or whether the settings really were so far out. The front end just feels so much beter now, turns in without me feeling like I'm fighting it.

Even with the fork legs off the bike and just pressing them into the ground they felt so much stiffer with the preload adjusters wound in, so that must have made a big difference?

Even 2 up I only experienced a slight headshake when gunning it over a slight crest in the road. On my commute this morningt it felt so much more stable too.

I aligned the rear wheel by measuring from the pivot. It would appear the markers are about 2mm out.

Will put up pics of the old bearings, they were horrific.

[Gerry]

Hi

If we are talking about an old fashioned "tankslapper" I have found in the past that the rear tyre going off original profile, ie has squared off somewhat can cause issues like this. Although the problem shows itself as violent head shaking the problem can start from the rear of the machine. I'm not saying this will be the cause always, but I have seen this.

I have had bikes which were prone to tank slappers and they were always more stable with a passenger.

[utopia]

[QUOTE=Phatty;402202..........
Even with the fork legs off the bike and just pressing them into the ground they felt so much stiffer with the preload adjusters wound in, so that must have made a big difference?
[/QUOTE]

Yes they would feel stiffer, but thats just because you need to overcome the initial resistance provided by the preload before they will deflect at all. After that, they will deflect by the same amount as before under any further loading.
But yes, it still could have made quite a difference to their overall performance.

[Phatty]

I did say I wanted to do each job one by one to try and pinpoint the exact cause. but time constraints meant I just had to do it all in one hit. Often the case I find.

So, that means I can't say for sure what was causing the issue. Could have been the front forks, could have been wheel alignment, could have been the headstock bearings. It's still not 100% perfect, but I'm a lot happier with it now.

Will take the time out to do a proper wheel alignment of the back wheel to the front wheel when I change the wheels back once the originals have been painted.

[jerry]

S4 front end can be a nighgtmare i have spent 4 years honing mine and they still dont work properly so now am fitting 996 superbike forks and ktech internals